Debate on the Feat Patience

[Bjond]

it does nothing to recuce your base attack bonus speed so you are actually losing less than 10% dps

It's about 6% overall rate reduction via interpolating Monkey Archer's table. The gains depend on your current critical threat range. The bigger your range, the more you gain; eg. 15x4 to 15x5 is ~14.6%, but 17x4 to 17x5 is ~11.4%.

TL;DR: it depends on build

• Thrower: yes yes omg yes! (outright win, zero rate reduction)
• THF: yes please (almost certainly a win for most THF builds)
• SWF: mmmaybe? (probably wins even with sneaks & imbues)
• TWF: meh, no (only wins without big non-weapon damage)
• Wrap: lolsneer (only wins without big sneak imbue & proc)

---

In general, I view patience as a bad dev-troll. It's a quick hack obviously aimed at server load that is not attractive to the high-load builds and thus isn't likely to help as much as it could.

Want to make it a win for server load AND players? Make it attractive to Wraps, TWF, and SWF. There are all kinds of ways to do that, but the current patience feat is not one of them; eg. swap CM+1 for Damage+15% to weapon, sneaks, procs, & imbue (everything, not "only weapon").

 

[Sanjo-do-gara]

why i only have one pair madstone boots :(

 

[kmoustakas]

No it’s incorrect cleaves were changed a while ago to scale with attack speed

The crayz thing is not all of them. For example, the renegade mastermaker kinetic discharge has a set animation speed which is slow af. I removed it from my mastermaker because compared to like whirlwind attack it was like almost 1/3 or 1/4th of the speed (was using swf).

 

[Teh_Troll]

It's about 6% overall rate reduction via interpolating Monkey Archer's table. The gains depend on your current critical threat range. The bigger your range, the more you gain; eg. 15x4 to 15x5 is ~14.6%, but 17x4 to 17x5 is ~11.4%.

Do we have accurate shots/minute for the various ranged weapon styles anywhere? My Google-Fu is weak on this one.

 

[Drachmor]

Incorrect after U45.

And for OP: Patience is splendid for some build, my shuri-thrower just get +1 free multiplier. 8)

I was curious about this! There has been some talk over the years about throwing animations specifically - this idea that attack speed beyond a certain point does nothing, and so Patience actually has less of a detriment. Do you notice the slowdown? Also just curious, what's your threat range?

 

[Drachmor]

If you have a big range and a fast attack speed I think it's going to put you ahead in most content. If you are at +35% increased attack speed and +30% from haste boost, going from 165% to 155% is really not a huge deal.

Edit: Coming back to this way later, yeah Mechgraber was right,

 

[Drachmor]

It does drop your attack speed by 10%
So if you have haste on it goes from 115% to 105% and it does nothing to recuce your base attack bonus speed so you are actually losing less than 10% dps before any bonuses.

!! Oh then I actually might have just immediately been wrong in my previous comment; to me the difference felt significant. I forgot that the in-game stat sheet actually shows things like attack speed, so I will check this out! (Then again, I could see there being a bugged interaction where the debuff is more significant than what is shown)

 

[Kyrr]

I bug reported this a couple weeks ago. There seems to be some weapon types that the bonus does not appear to be applying to, cough handwraps cough. Did lots of testing against Vixorshal the Deceiver in the Epic IOD Wilderness and without Patience my DPS was in line with I expected it to be, but with Patience my DPS was down 10% but not crit modifier on my monk did not seem to go up the expected +1 critical multiplier.

In theory most DPS builds would see a modicum of increase in DPS output, say 2 or 3 percent depending on your weapon style and animation. You lose on hit base effects, not one off things like Stunning Blow or Emerald Strike.

Is this not performing as intended? I did some testing in 3 different locations (one via ship on the training cannon, one via a wall in Promise, and one via EN KT on the first island,) and the numbers look higher with Patience

 

[EinarMal]

I was curious about this! There has been some talk over the years about throwing animations specifically - this idea that attack speed beyond a certain point does nothing, and so Patience actually has less of a detriment. Do you notice the slowdown? Also just curious, what's your threat range?

Repeaters are also capped, patience is pure DPS gain like throwers.

Tested at cap with expanded clip, same atttack rate with or without patience because it’s capped either way based on my testing.

This is true in several other ways, 20% ranged alacrity does nothing over 15%, light repeater no difference than heavy.

 

[Archaic]

You would find the best use of it on a Rogue Acrobat Monk in windstance.

 

[Drachmor]

Repeaters are also capped, patience is pure DPS gain like throwers.

Tested at cap with expanded clip, same atttack rate with or without patience because it’s capped either way based on my testing.

This is true in several other ways, 20% ranged alacrity does nothing over 15%, light repeater no difference than heavy.

this is big, def wanna do extensive testing next time I'm on a max swingspeed SWF build

 

[Fisto Mk I]

I was curious about this! There has been some talk over the years about throwing animations specifically - this idea that attack speed beyond a certain point does nothing, and so Patience actually has less of a detriment.

For throwers speed limited by combat animation (83-86 toss per minute, depends different test), so Patience do literally nothing detriment, only pure buff. Same about repeaters builds with Fusilade, very possible also for Inquisitors with NHB.

Do you notice the slowdown?

Absolutely no.

Also just curious, what's your threat range?

17-20x4, 19-20x7 (8 for Fire stance), 7.45(w).

 

[Drachmor]

For throwers speed limited by combat animation (83-86 toss per minute, depends different test), so Patience do literally nothing detriment, only pure buff. Same about repeaters builds with Fusilade, very possible also for Inquisitors with NHB.

Awesome news, thanks for sharing! My main started as a shuri thrower so it's always in my heart and I know I'll find my way back to it someday. Glad to hear abt the buff.

 

[Blerkington]

In general, I view patience as a bad dev-troll. It's a quick hack obviously aimed at server load that is not attractive to the high-load builds and thus isn't likely to help as much as it could.

Want to make it a win for server load AND players? Make it attractive to Wraps, TWF, and SWF. There are all kinds of ways to do that, but the current patience feat is not one of them; eg. swap CM+1 for Damage+15% to weapon, sneaks, procs, & imbue (everything, not "only weapon").

You've really hit the nail on the head here. Although I suspect shuriken throwers fall into the high load category but they have no reason not take it. So as a load reduction measure it's failing there too.

It also had the effect of buffing a developer's favourite build with no downside. Funny how that just keeps happening, while other builds languish for years without any serious attempt to make them more playable.

 

[Goldy]

Is this not performing as intended? I did some testing in 3 different locations (one via ship on the training cannon, one via a wall in Promise, and one via EN KT on the first island,) and the numbers look higher with Patience

My Monk is very predictable when taking down Vixorshal the Deceiver, so much so that 95% of my battles against the Demon finish within a 3 second window. So it caught me a little off guard the first time I fought him using patience and it took longer. I actually wondered if I screwed up something with my build and spent some time going over my build to make sure I didn't fat finger another feat or something along those lines. I ran it again, and again and again, and then I started recording it. I captured 20 runs out of 28 in a tight window, the other 8 were longer because the demon used anti gravity, ran away from me or other nonsense to take away from a pure DPS test.
I then swapped Patience for Epic Toughness. Low and behold my first run was back into my tight window I expected. Just to make sure I ran it 23 more times to get 20 times in my tight window.
With Patience my fights lasted an average of 11.5% longer. The reason that is interesting is because I should have been 3% faster with the extra +1 Crit multiplier, but 11.5% slower is very close to the 11.2% that what you should get if you attacked 10% slower AND the +1 Crit multiplier was not applied. As Epic Toughness does not add into my DPS, for my build it is tough to say anything other than Patience was not performing as expected.

As I wrote this is with handwraps. I tried my Falchion build, but my numbers are not in a tight enough window to do a decent test.

 

[Sarandra]

The Patience feat is probably one of the weakest attempts at creating something new.

 

[Kyrr]

My Monk is very predictable when taking down Vixorshal the Deceiver, so much so that 95% of my battles against the Demon finish within a 3 second window. So it caught me a little off guard the first time I fought him using patience and it took longer. I actually wondered if I screwed up something with my build and spent some time going over my build to make sure I didn't fat finger another feat or something along those lines. I ran it again, and again and again, and then I started recording it. I captured 20 runs out of 28 in a tight window, the other 8 were longer because the demon used anti gravity, ran away from me or other nonsense to take away from a pure DPS test.
I then swapped Patience for Epic Toughness. Low and behold my first run was back into my tight window I expected. Just to make sure I ran it 23 more times to get 20 times in my tight window.
With Patience my fights lasted an average of 11.5% longer. The reason that is interesting is because I should have been 3% faster with the extra +1 Crit multiplier, but 11.5% slower is very close to the 11.2% that what you should get if you attacked 10% slower AND the +1 Crit multiplier was not applied. As Epic Toughness does not add into my DPS, for my build it is tough to say anything other than Patience was not performing as expected.

As I wrote this is with handwraps. I tried my Falchion build, but my numbers are not in a tight enough window to do a decent test.

Thank you, will do some more tests.

 

[dur]

wait, there's a Patience feat? that is sickenly prophetic... sickenly because MMO and their profit driven model of pushing as much content in a calendar year as possible, without addressing the FALLOUT. The bugs and the f2p bums that be grifting and complaining.

BTW, do you really expect SSG to get it right the first time since y'all tolerate comments about how **** it is?

The community have been segued into Creators, like film stars that lost the love of the game because they have a million past-lives, and regular players.

At a minimum, I want a forum tag: Paying Player VS F2P Player. Tired of not knowing. Be nice to know many other things, but paying V non-paying is a good start.

SINCE WHEN IS PATIENCE A DnD THING???

 

[Monkey_Archer]

It's about 6% overall rate reduction via interpolating Monkey Archer's table. The gains depend on your current critical threat range. The bigger your range, the more you gain; eg. 15x4 to 15x5 is ~14.6%, but 17x4 to 17x5 is ~11.4%.

TL;DR: it depends on build

• Thrower: yes yes omg yes! (outright win, zero rate reduction)
• THF: yes please (almost certainly a win for most THF builds)
• SWF: mmmaybe? (probably wins even with sneaks & imbues)
• TWF: meh, no (only wins without big non-weapon damage)
• Wrap: lolsneer (only wins without big sneak imbue & proc)

---

In general, I view patience as a bad dev-troll. It's a quick hack obviously aimed at server load that is not attractive to the high-load builds and thus isn't likely to help as much as it could.

Want to make it a win for server load AND players? Make it attractive to Wraps, TWF, and SWF. There are all kinds of ways to do that, but the current patience feat is not one of them; eg. swap CM+1 for Damage+15% to weapon, sneaks, procs, & imbue (everything, not "only weapon").

To clarify/confirm:
A 10% attack speed reduction will generally reduce ranged styles by 0-6% depending on circumstance, ~8% for THF, 10-11% for S&B/SWF and ~12+% for TWF/wraps. If you do the math on dps including on hit/imbue these conclusions are generally correct. Always take patience feat for ranged and THF falchion builds. Never take it for TWF/wraps builds. SWF/S&B will require math depending on the specific build.

edit: just a small update, the above information was based on interpolating existing attack speed data. Further testing of the actual patience feat seems to result in a 7-11% attack speed reduction depending on style, rather than 8-12 as predicted. So it is possible that some TWF builds may actually benefit from patience.

 

[Kyrr]

To clarify/confirm:
A 10% attack speed reduction will generally reduce ranged styles by 0-6% depending on circumstance, ~8% for THF, 10-11% for S&B/SWF and ~12+% for TWF/wraps. If you do the math on dps including on hit/imbue these conclusions are generally correct. Always take patience feat for ranged and THF falchion builds. Never take it for TWF/wraps builds. SWF/S&B will require math depending on the specific build.

Thank you for this information.