Double X Bows vs Repeaters...

K

Khurse

Well-known member
Hi All
So as I'm trying to finalize my next build, realized (again) I've never really paid any attention to crossbows.
I've also become somewhat addicted to the pew pew pew sounds as I group with other players. (There seem to be a lot of Crossbow builds out there)

I don't actually care about what class/build I'll play using the crossbows, I'll figure that out after I decide whether to go repeater or inquisitive.
Just hoping people can provide some insight as to the differences in DPS /utility/ ease of use or anything else I might

So - given that any specific Inquisitive or Repeater (Artificer I guess?) build can vary wildly,
What are the main differences between building a repeater build or dual wielding Xbows?

From the comments I've read I'm guessing repeaters are generally more DPS... but I'm not sure by how much or even if that's the right interpretation.

Thanks!
 
Chiefvisigoth

Chiefvisigoth

Well-known member
I have played Artificer a lot over the years. Artificer uses repeaters and rune arms leaning heavily on the battle engineer tree. You can use inquisitive with almost any other build can use inquisitive using light or heavy crossbows. Most of the extra damage you get with inquisitive is only available with heavy and light crossbows. If you try using a repeater and inquisitive you will not get the extra law damage out of the inquisitive tree which is the big draw for inquisitive.. Just remember to keep that in mind when doing a build.
 
C

Contessor

Well-known member
Repeaters are heroic beasts. I think artificer 12+ has the edge with repeaters and expanded clip, especially with the changes to BE tree, in epics and beyond.

But as also mentioned, inquisitor just has more build options.
 
K

Khurse

Well-known member
Realizing as I ask it that it's a stupid question, as pretty much everything will depend on the actual classes/ build, but is there any real advantage to one or the other at endgame?
(as an extreme example) if someone joins a R10 raid with dual Xbows are people like *** is he trying to do this as an inquisitive? (I realize R10 raids generally aren't pugged..)
 
Chiefvisigoth

Chiefvisigoth

Well-known member
Khurse said:
Realizing as I ask it that it's a stupid question, as pretty much everything will depend on the actual classes/ build, but is there any real advantage to one or the other at endgame?
(as an extreme example) if someone joins a R10 raid with dual Xbows are people like *** is he trying to do this as an inquisitive? (I realize R10 raids generally aren't pugged..)
Click to expand...
Maybe you should go on Twitch and ask one of the streamers that. Vooduspyce comes to mind he runs high-level reapers. Might be a better person than me to answer that question
 
Stoner81

Stoner81

Well-known member
Khurse said:
Realizing as I ask it that it's a stupid question, as pretty much everything will depend on the actual classes/ build, but is there any real advantage to one or the other at endgame?
(as an extreme example) if someone joins a R10 raid with dual Xbows are people like *** is he trying to do this as an inquisitive? (I realize R10 raids generally aren't pugged..)
Click to expand...

Arti's are usually pure builds or at least 16 levels in order to reach level 6 spells (Deadly Weapons) which is a massive draw. As for difference in DPS I couldn't say. I haven't fully fleshed out a gearset for an Inquisitive at end game properly because I TR constantly. I do have a pure Arti at level cap and he shreds through stuff but not tried in high skull reapers though so again I can't comment on that.

My personal point of view is that both builds are perfectly viable at end game and it is highly dependant on the player behind the keyboard which makes all the difference. I have saved many quests and raids from being a total wipe on my Inquisitive more times than I can count but I have played Inquisitive pretty much exclusively now for years (I love the playstyle, I just want SSG to revert the heavy handed and ridiculous nerfs they did to Inquisitive :().

As for actual advice I'd say try both and see what suits you. You might prefer one over the other and that's perfectly fine :) we all like different things.

TL;DR - You do you boo! :D

Stoner81.
 
E

EinarMal

Well-known member
I've been messing around a lot recently with ranged builds, I think DPS wise they are pretty similar.

To me the main difference is repeater, you end up with less imbue dice and offset that with more sneak dice and physical damage. Inquisitive to me I think is better going for imbue. The one caveat with imbue is it will mess up raids as you cannot avoid pulling agro with imbues.

To me Artificer repeaters are better because you can do good DPS, can hand out Deadly to all the raid party, and you can build it with 14 or 21 imbue dice with less risk of pulling agro off a tank in a raid. Even if you need to turn the imbue off it has much less impact on DPS. Imbue also get reduce in R7+ with the additional penalty on spell damage.

I like something like Artificer 16/Dark Hunter 4 for repeaters, you get two level 6 spells (Deadly, Reconstruct), if you want more DPS you can go Artificer 15/Ranger 3/Rogue 2 or Artificer 15/Dark Hunter 3/Rogue 2. I like the 16 levels better personally as you don't have to choose between deadly and reconstruct. I also like T5 BE, the 2x AOE repeater shots do actually work well and are very handy, technically something like Artificer 12/Ranger 6/Rogue 2 is even more DPS if you go T5 Deep Woods Stalker, but you lose the a lot of Artificer utility and one AOE shot that way, its also only a lot more DPS if you can stand still and get full stacks of archer focus.

Progression:
1 thru 4-Dark Hunter
5 thru 20-Artficer

(For non-Warfoged version, I like Tabaxi because the run speed is so nice worth -4 Int to me, but you can do other races like Drow/Eladrin is good)
Feats: (7 +5 AB +1FE + 2DH)
1-Point Blank Shot
1-(FE) Human
2-(DH) Rapid Shot
3-Precision
4-(DH) Precise Shot
5-(AB) Rapid Reload
6-Insightful Reflexes
8-(AB) Quicken
9-Dodge
12-IC Ranged
12-(AB) Construct Essence
15-Mobility
16-(AB) Improved Construct Essence
18-Nimble Fingers
20-(AB) Shot on the Run
21-Expanded Clip
22-Pierce Silver
24-Overwhelming Critical
25-Doubleshot
27-Combat Archery
28-Embodiment of Law
30-Scion of Arborea
30-Watchful Eye
31-Crush Weakness
33-Patience
34-???

Enhancements (100)
Battle Engineer 40
Racial 19
Dark Hunter 25
Harper 8
DWS 6
RM 2

Epic Destiny (83)
Shiradi 35
Fatesinger 25
Shadowdancer 23

Imbue Dice: 21
BE 4
Dark Hunter 3
Shiradi 3
Artifact 3
Augment 1
Filigree 4
Embodiment of Law 2
Scion 1

Sneak Dice: 29
Dark Hunter 5
DWS 3
Trailblazer 2
Shadowdancer 8
Artifact 3
Curse 2
Bonus Damage 6 (Counting this as sneak dice by dividing by 3.5)

For inquisitive you are better off with Alchemist or Wizard I think:
Tabaxi Alchemist 15/Dark Hunter 3/Rogue 2
Progression:
1-Rogue
2 thru 4-Dark Hunter
5 thru 19-Alchemist
20-Rogue

Feats: (7 + 3AB +1DH +1FE +1RB)
1-Point Blank Shot
2-(FE) Human
3-(DH) Rapid Shot
3-Rapid Reload
6-Precise Shot
8-(AB) Battalian Brew
9-Precision
12-(AB) Accelerate Spells
12-IC Ranged
15-Quicken
16-(AB) Maximize
18-Empower
20-(RB) Evasion
21-Overwhelming Critical
22-Pierce Silver
24-Combat Archery
25-Doubleshot
27-Nimble Fingers
28-Harbringer of Chaos
30-Watchful Eye
30-Scion of Earth
31-Enhanced Elemental Dice
33-Patience
34-Crush Weakness

Enhancements (100)
Racial 18
Inquisitive 41
Dark Hunter 15
Assassin 11
Harper 8
VC 6
DWS 1

Epic Destiny (83)
Shiradi 35
Shadowdancer 26
Macrotechnic 22

Total Dice: 35
VC 5
Assassin 3
Inquisitive 7
Dark Hunter 3
Scion 3
Harbringer of Chaos 2
Filligree 3
Elemental Weapon 2
Shiradi 3
Macrotechnic 3
Elemental Dice 1

Sneak Dice: 24
Dark Hunter 4
DWS 1
Rogue 3
Tabaxi 2
Shadowdancer 8
Bonus Damage 6
 
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rabidfox

rabidfox

The People's Champion
EinarMal said:
It was from trailblazer and a +1 heart, didn't want to pay for alignment swap, but that is a good call out if you don't do that, pasted it from my build doc.

That's a better choice for sure if you are not lawful.
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That's why I use embodiment of law too. Being able to swap to a staff, leap for the sprint boost, and swap back to pew pew is so nice.
 
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EinarMal

Well-known member
rabidfox said:
That's why I use embodiment of law too. Being able to swap to a staff, leap for the sprint boost, and swap back to pew pew is so nice.
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Yep its awesome. Free wings basically and 30% haste boost on Artificer that can't easily get either is gold.
 
K

Khurse

Well-known member
Thanks all!

Did try Inquisitive but I didn't like it, TBF I didn't really give it a big chance, just switched up the enhancements and ran a couple heroic Sharn quests when I hit the level. But I'm honestly not sure if it was because I found it to be lower DPS or because I missed the "pewpewpew" repeater sounds.

Ended up trying a pure 20 Artificer. Figured I'd want Tactical Detonation as well as Reconstruct and Deadly Weapons. Didn't stop to think about getting the TD DC high enough that it's going to work in high reapers at endgame, so might try again as a 16 /something split. Think DH will probably be best, but also trying to figure out if I can get a good non lightning imbue. (Lightning's not bad, just so much seems to be immune to it)

Went Eladrin as it seemed to give the best stats (4 Int, 6% Doubleshot ) plus Displacement SLA, plus a (limited) jump. Thought about Bladeforged , as I can get Reconstruct from there, but I'll lose the nice "can also be healed by positive energy" . Hadn't really considered Tabaxi, but I do love their run speed, and with 2d6 SA, as well as Evasion in the tree, probably worth giving up 4 Int for it. Not sure it's worth the 4 Int + Doubleshot + SLA. But that run speed would be nice...

Anyway can't believe it took me this long to actually try artificer ( I did my completionist lives by burning a +20 heart for my toons)

They're really a lot of fun to play. (With the Caveat the toon is just 29, haven't hit endgame yet)
 
E

EinarMal

Well-known member
Khurse said:
Thanks all!

Did try Inquisitive but I didn't like it, TBF I didn't really give it a big chance, just switched up the enhancements and ran a couple heroic Sharn quests when I hit the level. But I'm honestly not sure if it was because I found it to be lower DPS or because I missed the "pewpewpew" repeater sounds.

Ended up trying a pure 20 Artificer. Figured I'd want Tactical Detonation as well as Reconstruct and Deadly Weapons. Didn't stop to think about getting the TD DC high enough that it's going to work in high reapers at endgame, so might try again as a 16 /something split. Think DH will probably be best, but also trying to figure out if I can get a good non lightning imbue. (Lightning's not bad, just so much seems to be immune to it)

Went Eladrin as it seemed to give the best stats (4 Int, 6% Doubleshot ) plus Displacement SLA, plus a (limited) jump. Thought about Bladeforged , as I can get Reconstruct from there, but I'll lose the nice "can also be healed by positive energy" . Hadn't really considered Tabaxi, but I do love their run speed, and with 2d6 SA, as well as Evasion in the tree, probably worth giving up 4 Int for it. Not sure it's worth the 4 Int + Doubleshot + SLA. But that run speed would be nice...

Anyway can't believe it took me this long to actually try artificer ( I did my completionist lives by burning a +20 heart for my toons)

They're really a lot of fun to play. (With the Caveat the toon is just 29, haven't hit endgame yet)
Click to expand...

Yeah, you are thinking about the right things, these are all things I have considered as well! Just posting my thoughts on some of these if it helps down the road.

Race: For race, there are a lot of good choices Eladrin is a good one, I think Eladrin, Warforged, Drow, Half-Elf (Arcane Archer), Tabaxi (or Trailblazer), and Gnome are all solid. I liked Tabaxi Trailblazer the best with essentially 100% uptime on the 30% AB run speed, and free wings with spring attack and a weapon swap, along with deflect arrows, 2d6 sneak, and some other minor boosts. As far as doubleshot goes, I was over 100% with the reaper boost on the Tabaxi. That said I can't say Eladrin is worse, it's definitely very good.

I will make one comment on Gnome, for some reason with Gnome my AOE repeater shots mis-fired A LOT more than with taller races. Maybe they changed something I am not sure, but when I tried this a few months ago it was an issue.

Imbue: There are a lot of lightning immune, with DH you do have at least a non-zero backup imbue with bleed the weak. I think it's ok with 14 or 21 dice. If I were going all out with imbue, I would probably shift to Artificer 12/Wizard 6/Rogue 2 and get the spellsword imbue, try to maybe go Half-Elf and go all in on imbue. But I have not run this.

DC: I dumped this, I was not able to get a DC without a major sacrifice that I thought would work in R10s, like sad DC. I did try pure Artificer, but definitely like the 16/4 version better.
 
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K

Khurse

Well-known member
EinarMal said:
Yeah, you are thinking about the right things, these are all things I have considered as well! Just posting my thoughts on some of these if it helps down the road.

Race: For race, there are a lot of good choices Eladrin is a good one, I think Eladrin, Warforged, Drow, Half-Elf (Arcane Archer), Tabaxi (or Trailblazer), and Gnome are all solid. I liked Tabaxi Trailblazer the best with essentially 100% uptime on the 30% AB run speed, and free wings with spring attack and a weapon swap, along with deflect arrows, 2d6 sneak, and some other minor boosts. As far as doubleshot goes, I was over 100% with the reaper boost on the Tabaxi. That said I can't say Eladrin is worse, it's definitely very good.

I will make one comment on Gnome, for some reason with Gnome my AOE repeater shots mis-fired A LOT more than with taller races. Maybe they changed something I am not sure, but when I tried this a few months ago it was an issue.

Imbue: There are a lot of lightning immune, with DH you do have at least a non-zero backup imbue with bleed the weak. I think it's ok with 14 or 21 dice. If I were going all out with imbue, I would probably shift to Artificer 12/Wizard 6/Rogue 2 and get the spellsword imbue, try to maybe go Half-Elf and go all in on imbue. But I have not run this.

DC: I dumped this, I was not able to get a DC without a major sacrifice that I thought would work in R10s, like sad DC. I did try pure Artificer, but definitely like the 16/4 version better.
Click to expand...
Hit 32 and run around a bit. I think you're probably right, 16/4 being the way to go.

Those last 4 Arti levels are giving me (basically) a few points of PRR/MRR and 4 Int. The 4 Int will suck to lose, but 4 levels of Ranger will give me another couple feats, the SA damage, and whatever other goodies .

Sitting at 107% Doubleshot in reaper without the boost, so about the same (I mean it'll be @ 30% higher, but I don't think it's a huge difference given I only have 4 boosts) but yeah, not sure I want to drop another 4 Int . Should be able to fit in Spring Attack with the Ranger levels,

Thanks for the advice!
 
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