Whenever I plan to play a ranged character I've always assumed that Doubleshot and Ranged Power were of equal value when working out the build. But I wanted to ask if this was actually the case. If they aren't of equal value, could you also explain why you think one is better than the other?
Doubleshot vs Ranged Power
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Lominal
Well-known member
It depends on the build, but doubleshot is almost always worth more. The factors:
- Ranged power often scales things more than 100% (fate strike, shiradi mantle, sneak dmg, imbue)
- Doubleshot is often lower and harder to get than Ranged power
Generally, the first point matter less than the second point, as most of ranged dps is from front number (70-80% on current meta ranged dps)
- Ranged power often scales things more than 100% (fate strike, shiradi mantle, sneak dmg, imbue)
- Doubleshot is often lower and harder to get than Ranged power
Generally, the first point matter less than the second point, as most of ranged dps is from front number (70-80% on current meta ranged dps)
vryxnr
Well-known member
Maths!
10 ranged power = 10% more damage.
10 doubleshot = 10% chance to hit twice (lets say double damage for simplicity)
In the simplest form, they are equal (assuming everything else is equal too, no different scaling, damage numbers are consistent, what you are fighting has no reductions, etc)
If you do exactly 100 damage per hit, and attack 10 times, with only 10 ranged power, you'll do a total of 1100 damage.
With the exact same perameters, but you only have 10% doubleshot instead, after 10 attacks you will, on average, also do 1100 damage.
The difference is 10 ranged power is consistent for all attacks, while 10 doubleshot is only a chance to apply and thus comes in bursts but doesn't apply all the time (only 10% of attacks will get those benefits). Even after 100 this still applies, as 110 doubleshot is a guaranteed double, with a 10% chance for triple. While 110 ranged power is always 110% more damage. The maths (assuming perfect averages over time) ends up remaining the same.
The theoretical best is to keep them equal. Of course, if one is easier to get a lot of, it's still worth getting a lot of it.
edit: and as Lominal said, if you can only choose one, and one is lower, it's better to bring the lower one up. Another consideration is that doubleshot will multiply all other effects of a hit, while ranged power only affects what it affects, usually the initial number, maybe imbue damage as well. (though the other effects of a hit are usually quite minor in the grand scheme of DPS).
Basically, the more variables and effects you have, the more complicated it becomes and things can shift. But at the most basic, they are equal.
edit: later in this thread some of us go into greater detail, while arguing about the validity of AI and using AI with incorrect data and assumptions
10 ranged power = 10% more damage.
10 doubleshot = 10% chance to hit twice (lets say double damage for simplicity)
In the simplest form, they are equal (assuming everything else is equal too, no different scaling, damage numbers are consistent, what you are fighting has no reductions, etc)
If you do exactly 100 damage per hit, and attack 10 times, with only 10 ranged power, you'll do a total of 1100 damage.
With the exact same perameters, but you only have 10% doubleshot instead, after 10 attacks you will, on average, also do 1100 damage.
The difference is 10 ranged power is consistent for all attacks, while 10 doubleshot is only a chance to apply and thus comes in bursts but doesn't apply all the time (only 10% of attacks will get those benefits). Even after 100 this still applies, as 110 doubleshot is a guaranteed double, with a 10% chance for triple. While 110 ranged power is always 110% more damage. The maths (assuming perfect averages over time) ends up remaining the same.
The theoretical best is to keep them equal. Of course, if one is easier to get a lot of, it's still worth getting a lot of it.
edit: and as Lominal said, if you can only choose one, and one is lower, it's better to bring the lower one up. Another consideration is that doubleshot will multiply all other effects of a hit, while ranged power only affects what it affects, usually the initial number, maybe imbue damage as well. (though the other effects of a hit are usually quite minor in the grand scheme of DPS).
Basically, the more variables and effects you have, the more complicated it becomes and things can shift. But at the most basic, they are equal.
edit: later in this thread some of us go into greater detail, while arguing about the validity of AI and using AI with incorrect data and assumptions
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PersonMan
Well-known member
Scales based on Ranged Power effects do change things a little, making Ranged Power more important up to a point, but excluding that you theoretically want them both at the same numbers as @vryxnr mentioned. It is build (weapon) dependent as to how practical that is.
Opportunity cost is the main thing. If your option is +1 Doubleshot or +5 RP, the RP is almost certainly the better choice. RP is often easier to acquire.
Opportunity cost is the main thing. If your option is +1 Doubleshot or +5 RP, the RP is almost certainly the better choice. RP is often easier to acquire.
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
I have directly opposite opinion exactly because your 1st factor. Pure math, as @vryxnr show below. DS better for non-scaling proc, almost irrelevant for high-end game, RP better (and much) for scaling proc. RP >>DS any time day or night. 8)
I have similar discussion with @Ying in old forum with math, unavailable now unfortunately.
droid327
Hardcore casual soloist
Would you rather have an extra 50 DS or 50 RP? Most people would take the DS, and they'd be right...
If you're sitting on, say, 400 RP and 200 DS, then that's a 15x modifier (500% damage x 300% shots). +50 RP increases your modifier to 16.5x. +50 DS increases your modifier to 17.5x. DS has a much greater effect in real-game situations
Also, DS will double most effects that RP scales, so that's usually a push. Even things that scale 150% or 200% on RP, the difference isnt going to offset the greater multiplicative weight of DS.
Also also, the granularity argument is a little overstated. Only the second two digits are "variable"...ie if you have 230% Dshot, then the 200% always applies, and only the 30% will show variance. That's not going to cause significant overkill, so you can pretty much treat Dshot as statistically identical to RP in terms of effect per point.
Archest
Well-known member
what's most important is when you shoot a repeater and are supposed to get three shots and it barely fires 1 at the speed of a bow shot the game is lagging and it shouldn't be. so in fact in this case it doesn't matter if you have high ranged power or double shot cause the mob is going to kill you.
Bjond
Well-known member
Yep. If you want to increase the result by adding to one out of a set of scalars, add to the smallest of the set.
The complication for DDO is that each scalar doesn't always scale equally for each value on the damage line; eg. the front number on a 15x5x7 weapon is scaled by ~2.47x by profile and then also by DS and RP.
Then you have sneak that is scaled not by profile, but by DS & 1.5xRP. Imbue is scaled by DS and (ideally) 2xRP. There are procs that are scaled by attack rate and (sometimes) DS, but not by RP.
Now you have a gear choice. Should you add 3 damage or 5 RP or 5 DS? It's usually a lot harder to get DS up and thus first choice, but if your base damage is fairly low, 3 damage might win. Same for RP.
Even worse, toss in accuracy choices. The thresholds for "no grazing" are mostly unknown. They're sky-high in Chill, though. I was grazing on a 2 with ~180.
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
Simple rule: pick the one that offers the highest relative (%) increase. If you have 50 DS, another 5 is a factor of (50+5)/50 = 1.1 increase (or 10%). If you have 100 RP and add 10, it's also a factor of 1.1 (10%) increase. You can nitpick this further but they are very close to identical.
EDIT: The damage formula is actually *(1+DS/100) and *(1+RP/100) as both actually start at 0 so the above math should be the relative increase of (150+5)/150) vs (200+10)/(200) which will give slightly different results, but I'm too tired ot change it. Just add 100 everywhere.
Reason: Math. Average DPS in DDO is just a bunch of numbers multiplied together x*y*z, and a 10% increase on one is the same as a 10% increase on another due to the commutativity of multiplication: x*1.1*y*z = x*y*1.1*z = x*y*z*1.1. The same holds for listed weapon damage (incl. modifiers). Yes there are a few caveats but the deviations from the rule are small. Try it.
EDIT: The damage formula is actually *(1+DS/100) and *(1+RP/100) as both actually start at 0 so the above math should be the relative increase of (150+5)/150) vs (200+10)/(200) which will give slightly different results, but I'm too tired ot change it. Just add 100 everywhere.
Reason: Math. Average DPS in DDO is just a bunch of numbers multiplied together x*y*z, and a 10% increase on one is the same as a 10% increase on another due to the commutativity of multiplication: x*1.1*y*z = x*y*1.1*z = x*y*z*1.1. The same holds for listed weapon damage (incl. modifiers). Yes there are a few caveats but the deviations from the rule are small. Try it.
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If you are going endgame first goal is 100% doubleshot, shuri thrower much as possible over that.
Range power of course high as possible, fortification bypass is huge and makes a difference.
Don't forget to have threat reduction.
droid327
Hardcore casual soloist
All ranged can push dshot over 100% same as shuri
I haven't done an endgame build for range since they killed bows. So that's a good thing.
Throwers are hard to level imo, shooters are fun. Good for tring.
Bjond
Well-known member
Minor correction, 50->55 DS is a 3.3% DPS increase: 1.55/1.50 = 31/30 = 103.33...
Don't forget the base hit. It matters when comparing DS to say base damage+X and when comparing a DS increase to a power increase that's scaled itself (eg. for sneak).
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Easy, just make a giant spreadsheet modeling your character's basic attacks, active attacks, procs, debuffs, etc etc - and then just change the inputs by the DS/RP in question to figure out which is better!
Shouldn't take you more than a long time
My experience is that generally DS is better when available, because it's usually harder to get.
Shouldn't take you more than a long time
My experience is that generally DS is better when available, because it's usually harder to get.
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
Guys (and gals), all these questions can now be answered by AI. It does all the math for you. You can see the equation and all the math behind it. I'm not going to type it all out here. In summary, though, you have to get to 100% doubleshot, and then...
If you are comparing two items or abilities in a zero-sum scenario (restricted by feats/equipment):
If Current RP < 200: Take the item with more Ranged Power.
If Current RP > 300: Take the item with more Doubleshot.
If you have 40+ Imbue Dice: Stick with Ranged Power longer, as it scales your dice damage linearly.
If you are comparing two items or abilities in a zero-sum scenario (restricted by feats/equipment):
If Current RP < 200: Take the item with more Ranged Power.
If Current RP > 300: Take the item with more Doubleshot.
If you have 40+ Imbue Dice: Stick with Ranged Power longer, as it scales your dice damage linearly.
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
Good point. I tried including that in my edit yesterday but not sure it was legible.
The point is that since it's all multiplied together and you can move multipliers around, you only need to compare the relative increase for the factors that changed (be it DS, RP, attack damage, attack speed or (average) crit multiplier). You don't need to calculate the actual DPS change.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Let's examine the third statement there, looking purely at scaling your imbue dice. We'll assume 40 dice per statement 3, 100% DS per your first paragraph, and 200 RP since per statement one and three you state that RP will clearly be better.
40 ID, 200 RP, 100 DS = 40*(1+2*2)*(1+1) = 400 effective ID
Add 50 RP = 40*(1+2*2.5)*(1+1) = 480 eID
Add 50 DS = 40*(1+2*2)*(1+1.5) = 500 eID
This clearly demonstrates your math is wrong for the hypothetical zero-sum scenario with equivalent RS/DS choices.
If you're not willing to do the math yourself to figure out breakpoints (which is totally fair, to be clear) at least check the results before posting. Takes like 30s in a spreadsheet, or like a minute by hand.
And if you really meant "stick with RP longer" you'd mean past 300 RP, and there it gets even worse:
40/300/100 = 560 eID
40/350/100 = 640 eID
40/300/150 = 700 eID
In which case DS is almost twice as valuable as RP for scaling your imbue dice, point for point.
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
Bro, I'm going with AI over your spreadsheet.
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