LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
It does say that crits are included in imbue damage, right here: "Effective Imbue Damage (eID)=ID×(1+RP/100)×(1+DS/100)×[1+p(m−1)]"
Doubleshot vs Ranged Power
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vryxnr
Well-known member
No benefit, but no detriment either other than the points or gear that could be focused elsewhere.
In lower difficulty raids (normal, hard, elite, low reaper), tanks have a difficult job. Be tough enough to survive taking all the hits, have the intim scores to force aggro, have enough threat gen and damage so they multiply effectively. In higher reapers, plain old intimidate gets more powerful, as the threat it generates is not reduced by the reaper scaling, while raw damage (and thus threat from damage) is reduced. But in lower difficulties, tanks got to contend with the full force of optimized DPS that over the years has grown at a far greater rate than threat management has.
Most tanks are not able to build for all of the above. Often they lack the DPS to get sufficiently boosted by their threat multipliers. However, even tanks that do have all of that in spades will sometimes have issues, partially because of there being so much damage that is NOT affected by threat reduction at all, as well as there being numerous mechanics that straight up reset aggro. Some bosses upon reaching specific HP thresholds will reset their aggro. Sometimes specific events will do the same (destroying a phylactery, etc). Some enemies have random aggro that changes every 6 seconds (bearded devils, etc). Using Throw the Boom (while it guarantees aggro for a time, it also resets all threat, so once the forced aggro time expires, the hate list may shift dramatically), etc, etc, etc.
And then you have DPS who are used to running high reaper quests with a defensive stance on, who then forget to turn their defensive stances off in raids, and thus are playing with threat generating multipliers on their already large DPS. *shakes head*
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
So? Read the executive summary. I love how everyone is trying to pick it apart but can't. As I said, I've solved this.
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
If by solved you mean reading AI summaries and ignoring details or any evidence to the contrary - but then what is the point in talking with other people on these forums? You can just talk to your AI, I'm sure it will agree with you.
Oliphant
Well-known member
Did you try spell threat reduction?
Can confirm. Have run around plenty with >100% in all 3 reductions at the same time. Imbues/proc damage bypass it.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Error 1: Critical hits do not scale RP-scaling Imbues.
Error 2: A build with 40 ID scaled with RP will have 200% RP scaling.
Also that formula is the worst formatting I've seen in a while (and has unclosed parenthesis like this, random \big formatting letover, and crit scaling as well per above.
Here, let me save you some work:
eID = IDx(1+2xRP/100)x(1+DS/100)
This is a lot of random fancy symbols to try to make this look smarter than it is, plus a ton of leftover formatting. ∂ is the partial differential symbol, used for multivariable calculus; not the basic algebra needed here.
With RP & DS scaled both at 100% (not the case here) it would be true that the better value is the lower one lol. With RP at double value it's also weighted more heavily at every point (by twice, in fact). But with 100 RP and 0 DS (definitely low RP) it's still easy to check if +1 DS or +1 RP is better - 3.03 vs 3.02 respectively, where a point of DS is 50% better than a point of RP.
Obviously false for imbue dice.
Testing (some above, some across the internet, some I've done) has disproven that higher -threat can overflow. -100 or -120 are both equivalent, in that they both remove all generated threat from damage that applies threat reduction.
Inexorable Advance adds a lot of damage that isn't threat reduced. Kinda need Hate tanks to maintain aggro, not just Intim tanks; and that's a lot harder to make esp as an alt.
Executive Summary:
@Marshal_Lannes doesn't read everywhere that people pick it apart.
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
Many of your objections are forum DDO. Hand waving that doesn't affect the actual calculation. I'm not saying you are doing it on purpose, but you are trying to nitpick things that have no bearing on the conclusion.
To respond to your Error 1:
Some RP-scaling imbues do not crit, but this does not affect the RP vs Doubleshot breakpoint for imbue scaling.
To respond to your Error 2:
This statement confuses total damage magnitude with scaling rate.
Having 40 imbue dice does not increase RP’s percentage scaling.
It only increases the base damage pool that both RP and DS multiply.
Whether you have:
…the RP scaling coefficient remains exactly the same
Per Marginal Gains -
The use of partial-derivative notation is unnecessary here; simple algebraic comparison is sufficient. I was demonstrating the level of math that AI can do when directed by a layman. However, your numeric example actually confirms the model: at 100 RP and 0 DS, DS is better precisely because RP already exceeds DS. That’s the predicted behavior. RP is not ‘weighted more heavily’ because it’s larger; both stats are linear multipliers, and the marginal value of one increases as the other grows.
And per "obviously false for imbue die"
Crit range and crit multiplier scale per-projectile imbue damage, and because both RP and DS apply multiplicatively to that crit-scaled damage, crit profile does not change the RP vs DS breakpoint.
See:
Expected imbue damage per projectile:
Per-projectile imbue damage
= ID × (1 + RP/100) × [1 + p(m − 1)]
Now apply Doubleshot:
Total imbue output
= ID × (1 + RP/100) × [1 + p(m − 1)] × (1 + DS/100)
This ordering matters.
Crits:
(1 + RP/100)
So the gain is proportional to:
[1 + p(m − 1)] × (1 + DS/100)
(1 + DS/100)
So the gain is proportional to:
[1 + p(m − 1)] × (1 + RP/100)
The crit term [1 + p(m − 1)] is present in both gains.
Not because crits affect DS directly —
but because both RP and DS are applied to crit-scaled damage.
That is the correct reason the breakpoint is invariant.
Why?
Because DS increases the number of crit-eligible projectiles hitting with crit-scaled damage.
So crits:
To respond to your Error 1:
Some RP-scaling imbues do not crit, but this does not affect the RP vs Doubleshot breakpoint for imbue scaling.
- The critique identifies a classification issue, not a mathematical error
- Whether imbues crit is orthogonal to the RP vs DS efficiency comparison
- The RP ≈ DS crossover point remains correct under both models
To respond to your Error 2:
This statement confuses total damage magnitude with scaling rate.
Key distinction
- Damage share ≠ marginal scaling efficiency
- The analysis compares returns per additional stat point, not “what portion of damage comes from imbues”
Having 40 imbue dice does not increase RP’s percentage scaling.
It only increases the base damage pool that both RP and DS multiply.
Whether you have:
- 5 imbue dice
- 40 imbue dice
- 100 imbue dice
…the RP scaling coefficient remains exactly the same
Per Marginal Gains -
The use of partial-derivative notation is unnecessary here; simple algebraic comparison is sufficient. I was demonstrating the level of math that AI can do when directed by a layman. However, your numeric example actually confirms the model: at 100 RP and 0 DS, DS is better precisely because RP already exceeds DS. That’s the predicted behavior. RP is not ‘weighted more heavily’ because it’s larger; both stats are linear multipliers, and the marginal value of one increases as the other grows.
And per "obviously false for imbue die"
Crit range and crit multiplier scale per-projectile imbue damage, and because both RP and DS apply multiplicatively to that crit-scaled damage, crit profile does not change the RP vs DS breakpoint.
See:
Expected imbue damage per projectile:
Per-projectile imbue damage
= ID × (1 + RP/100) × [1 + p(m − 1)]
Now apply Doubleshot:
Total imbue output
= ID × (1 + RP/100) × [1 + p(m − 1)] × (1 + DS/100)
This ordering matters.
Crits:
- Multiply per-projectile damage
- Do not change projectile count
- Multiplies projectile count
- Does not change crit size
Why the breakpoint still does not move
Now compare adding +1 RP vs +1 DS using plain algebra.Add +1 RP
You increase:(1 + RP/100)
So the gain is proportional to:
[1 + p(m − 1)] × (1 + DS/100)
Add +1 DS
You increase:(1 + DS/100)
So the gain is proportional to:
[1 + p(m − 1)] × (1 + RP/100)
The crit term [1 + p(m − 1)] is present in both gains.
Not because crits affect DS directly —
but because both RP and DS are applied to crit-scaled damage.
That is the correct reason the breakpoint is invariant.
What the objector is implicitly assuming (and why it fails)
The objection assumes:That intuition is understandable — but incorrect.
Why?
Because DS increases the number of crit-eligible projectiles hitting with crit-scaled damage.
So crits:
- Make each projectile hit harder (RP axis)
- Make each additional projectile more valuable (DS axis)
Bottom line
The original sentence was poorly worded
The conclusion that crits change the RP vs DS calculation is still wrong- Crits scale imbue damage, not projectile count
- Both RP and DS act on crit-scaled imbue damage through different axes
- The RP ≈ DS breakpoint remains unchanged
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Oliphant
Well-known member
And yet, this is textbook virtue signaling.
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
Fair enough. Removed.
Kimbere
Well-known member
Is a time-honored strategy for making claims as if they were facts yet being unable to back up said claims with logic, reasoning and most importantly, actual facts.
vryxnr
Well-known member
sweet merciful crap.
I'm going to make a few assumptions so that we can use actual numbers instead of variables. These assumptions will include 2 values that are far apart, so any differences will be more noticeable.
Assumption 0: no grazing hits and no misses
Assumption 1: Average base damage is either 10 or 100
Assumption 2: Average Imbue damage before scaling is either 10 or 100
Assumption 3: Imbue damage scales at 100%, 150%, or 200% Ranged Power (as they do in game)
Assumption 4: Ranged Power is either 10 or 100
Assumption 5: Doubleshot is either 10 or 100
Assumption 6: Crit profile is either 20/x2 or 17/x5 (and crits only affect base damage, not imbues, as it is in game)
The formula will be (A1 * A4 * A5) + (A6) + (A2 * A3 * A5)
That means: (base damage scaled with doubleshot and ranged power) + (extra damage from crits that affect only base damage) + (imbue damage that scales with imbue scaling and doubleshot)
Just to be thorough I put that into excel to quickly compare all iterations of those assumptions/variables.
I'm not going to list every combination, but here is one example comparison:
with 10 base damage, 100 base imbue damage at 100% scaling, 100 ranged power, 100 double shot, and a 20/x2 crit profile, your final damage will be 242.
Change that to 100 base damage, 10 imbue damage scaling at 100%, and all else the same (100 ranged power, 100 doubleshot, 20/x2 crit), final damage will be 440.
The difference is that the crit applies to the base but not the imbue.
However, if you use the formula provided by the AI above, both scenarios will result in the exact same final totals because it's multiplying/scaling crits to all variables. That is obviously not how things work in game, and assuming it is correct will lead you to incorrect conclusions. A build made with those assumptions may work, but it will not be accurate or as efficient as it could be if correct assumptions were used.
Now lets check some other variations with a proper (not ai generated) formula.
100 base damage and 100 imbue damage, imbue scaling at 200% ranged power, 17-20/x5 crit profile. Lets check the extremes of ranged power and doublestrike:
having only 10 ranged power and 100 doublestrike, you end up with a final of 796.
Swap them to be 100 ranged power and 10 doublestike, you end up with a final of 616.
Now lets take these results and add a single point of ranged power vs a single point of doubleshot.
First takes the 10 rp and 100 ds = 796. change it to 11 rp, and it bumps up to 799.6
If we instead change it to 10 rp and 101 ds, it goes up to 799.98
So in that specific setup, 1 RP = 3.6, while 1 DS = 3.98
How about the other setup? That being 100 rp and 10 ds, resulting in a total of 616.
Add one RP to make it 101 rp and 10 ds, you get 617.98
Instead add one DS to make it 100 rp and 11 ds, you get 621.6
So in that specific setup, 1 RP = 1.98, while 1 DS = 5.6
As you can see, finding the exact breakpoints between when ranged power vs doubleshot provides more value, or even what the value of 1 point even is, is a little bit complicated, as base damage, imbue dice, imbue scaling, current RP and DS values, and crit profiles, all affect the maths differently.
edit: and just to have one more example, I'll take that first setup and add 1 rp and 1 ds to see their value in those specific setups.
10 base, 100 imbue @ 100% scaling, 20/x2 crit, 100 rp and 100 ds = 242
101 rp and 100 ds = 242.21
100 rp and 101 ds = 243.21
1 rp = 0.21, while 1 ds = 1.21
vs
100 base, 10 imbue @ 100% scaling, 20/x2, 100 rp and 100 ds = 440
101 rp and 100 ds = 442.1
100 rp and 101 ds = 442.2
1 rp = 2.1, while 1 ds = 2.2
lets take this last example, and change the crit profile to 17-20/x5
10 base, 100 imbue @ 100%, 17/x5. 100 of both = 272
+1 rp = +0.36
+1 ds = +1.36
100 base, 10 imbue @ 100%, 17/x5, 100 of both = 740
+1 rp = +3.6
+1 ds = +3.7
(apologies for the edits and the gradual increase of shortform, I've spent too much time here already)
(also I was going cross-eyed typing this out, so I may have made egregious errors at some point)
I'm going to make a few assumptions so that we can use actual numbers instead of variables. These assumptions will include 2 values that are far apart, so any differences will be more noticeable.
Assumption 0: no grazing hits and no misses
Assumption 1: Average base damage is either 10 or 100
Assumption 2: Average Imbue damage before scaling is either 10 or 100
Assumption 3: Imbue damage scales at 100%, 150%, or 200% Ranged Power (as they do in game)
Assumption 4: Ranged Power is either 10 or 100
Assumption 5: Doubleshot is either 10 or 100
Assumption 6: Crit profile is either 20/x2 or 17/x5 (and crits only affect base damage, not imbues, as it is in game)
The formula will be (A1 * A4 * A5) + (A6) + (A2 * A3 * A5)
That means: (base damage scaled with doubleshot and ranged power) + (extra damage from crits that affect only base damage) + (imbue damage that scales with imbue scaling and doubleshot)
Just to be thorough I put that into excel to quickly compare all iterations of those assumptions/variables.
I'm not going to list every combination, but here is one example comparison:
with 10 base damage, 100 base imbue damage at 100% scaling, 100 ranged power, 100 double shot, and a 20/x2 crit profile, your final damage will be 242.
Change that to 100 base damage, 10 imbue damage scaling at 100%, and all else the same (100 ranged power, 100 doubleshot, 20/x2 crit), final damage will be 440.
The difference is that the crit applies to the base but not the imbue.
However, if you use the formula provided by the AI above, both scenarios will result in the exact same final totals because it's multiplying/scaling crits to all variables. That is obviously not how things work in game, and assuming it is correct will lead you to incorrect conclusions. A build made with those assumptions may work, but it will not be accurate or as efficient as it could be if correct assumptions were used.
Now lets check some other variations with a proper (not ai generated) formula.
100 base damage and 100 imbue damage, imbue scaling at 200% ranged power, 17-20/x5 crit profile. Lets check the extremes of ranged power and doublestrike:
having only 10 ranged power and 100 doublestrike, you end up with a final of 796.
Swap them to be 100 ranged power and 10 doublestike, you end up with a final of 616.
Now lets take these results and add a single point of ranged power vs a single point of doubleshot.
First takes the 10 rp and 100 ds = 796. change it to 11 rp, and it bumps up to 799.6
If we instead change it to 10 rp and 101 ds, it goes up to 799.98
So in that specific setup, 1 RP = 3.6, while 1 DS = 3.98
How about the other setup? That being 100 rp and 10 ds, resulting in a total of 616.
Add one RP to make it 101 rp and 10 ds, you get 617.98
Instead add one DS to make it 100 rp and 11 ds, you get 621.6
So in that specific setup, 1 RP = 1.98, while 1 DS = 5.6
As you can see, finding the exact breakpoints between when ranged power vs doubleshot provides more value, or even what the value of 1 point even is, is a little bit complicated, as base damage, imbue dice, imbue scaling, current RP and DS values, and crit profiles, all affect the maths differently.
edit: and just to have one more example, I'll take that first setup and add 1 rp and 1 ds to see their value in those specific setups.
10 base, 100 imbue @ 100% scaling, 20/x2 crit, 100 rp and 100 ds = 242
101 rp and 100 ds = 242.21
100 rp and 101 ds = 243.21
1 rp = 0.21, while 1 ds = 1.21
vs
100 base, 10 imbue @ 100% scaling, 20/x2, 100 rp and 100 ds = 440
101 rp and 100 ds = 442.1
100 rp and 101 ds = 442.2
1 rp = 2.1, while 1 ds = 2.2
lets take this last example, and change the crit profile to 17-20/x5
10 base, 100 imbue @ 100%, 17/x5. 100 of both = 272
+1 rp = +0.36
+1 ds = +1.36
100 base, 10 imbue @ 100%, 17/x5, 100 of both = 740
+1 rp = +3.6
+1 ds = +3.7
(apologies for the edits and the gradual increase of shortform, I've spent too much time here already)
(also I was going cross-eyed typing this out, so I may have made egregious errors at some point)
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vryxnr
Well-known member
yeah. and one of the issues with that is that false/incorrect information and lies can be told and spread very quickly, while proving something correct or not takes time/effort, and when people are willfully accepting the first thing they hear/read without verification, that misinformation easily gets out of control.
Is a time-honored strategy for making claims as if they were facts yet being unable to back up said claims with logic, reasoning and most importantly, actual facts.
AI simply isn't there (yet).
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
These examples are correct under the assumption that crits apply only to base damage and not imbues. Once that assumption is made, base and imbue damage are no longer symmetric, and there is no single RP–DS breakpoint. The marginal value of RP vs DS becomes dependent on the base/imbue mix, imbue scaling, crit profile, and current stat values. In that model, DS often outperforms RP at high imbue contribution, while RP gains relative value when base damage and crit scaling dominate.
vryxnr
Well-known member
And that is the reality of how the game actually works right now.
The very few exceptions (ie: spiritual retribution - which only crits when applied via eldritch blasts, not via attacks, melee or ranged - etc) are exceptions, not the rule.
healertank
Well-known member
I never understood why melee doublestrike caps at 100% but ranged doubleshot doesn't. Especially being ranged is better than melee in many ways already. However, doesn't dual wield and repeater crossbows cap at 100% doubleshot?
Why not just make them all cap at 100% bonus. And why do so many abilities that give doubleshot give more than the similar ability or feat for melee? It is so easy to stack doubleshot high. Epic doublestrike 5% yet epic doubleshot 10% etc for example.
Add in caster double spell strike?
Or best of all just get rid of all the double everything and just make it melee/ranged/spell power. Simplify it and also less calculations and 1 less thing to fit into gear builds.
Why not just make them all cap at 100% bonus. And why do so many abilities that give doubleshot give more than the similar ability or feat for melee? It is so easy to stack doubleshot high. Epic doublestrike 5% yet epic doubleshot 10% etc for example.
Add in caster double spell strike?
Or best of all just get rid of all the double everything and just make it melee/ranged/spell power. Simplify it and also less calculations and 1 less thing to fit into gear builds.
Kimbere
Well-known member
See? You finally came to the correct answer.
You just had to get your information from an actual person who was good at DDO math and mechanics rather than some misinformed AI.
Marshal_Lannes
Well-known member
That's not what happened at all. The AI is not misinformed, and the core conclusion still stands: in imbue-heavy ranged builds, Ranged Power is inherently more valuable than Doubleshot because imbue dice scale linearly and exclusively with RP and do not crit or benefit from DS at all. A build with ~40 imbue dice already has ~200% RP scaling on imbues alone, meaning every point of RP boosts both weapon damage and a large, non-critting damage pool, while DS only affects the weapon portion. Improved crit range or multiplier increases the relative value of DS only on weapon damage and does nothing for imbues, so it does not change this relationship. While DS can show higher marginal value at very low imbue counts, once imbues make up a significant share of total DPS, RP decisively pulls ahead, and no crit profile changes that fact. I'm going to use some real game examples when I have time. As we have seen, your returns on DS will be heavily influenced by how many imbues you use and base damage. Various ranged builds will have wildly divergent numbers here regarding the break point of returns.
Base damage dominance explains why Doubleshot often wins on the margin, but it does not overturn the fact that Ranged Power is the long-term scaling stat once imbues are non-trivial.
Further, you miss the point. I don't know anything about math. Never took a class beyond pre-algebra. And yet, I'm able to pull off mathematical calculation because of AI. If you can't recognize this, then we are back to groups of people trying to be right rather than get it right.
Oliphant
Well-known member
Is DDO wiki wrong?
"Imbue damage attached to a physical attack is multiplied by Doublestrike and Doubleshot."
"Imbue damage attached to a physical attack is multiplied by Doublestrike and Doubleshot."
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