Doubleshot
- Thread starter SunTzu
- Start date
Jeronimo
Playing since 2006
I don't see why the should. At the same time as they changed DS they also reduced ranged attack speed followed in june by nerfing NHB into the ground.
This is no longer the top meta. The only reason why a lot of players still enjoy using crossbow, is because it's one of the easiest ways of building a very effective DPS toon.
Nerf it further and you'll kill off the playstyle. Inquis will end up in the same place where casters are now.
There are always some loud individuals who hates all play styles except their favorit one. Peeps favoring melee managed to get casters nerfed 1.5 years ago, so most casters are not enjoyable to play any more. Please don't do the same with crossbow play styles. Fix lag instead.
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It was removed to compensate for a hard nerf to fire rate. On balance, the nerf was bad for ranged characters. Nice whine though.
Fallout47
Well-known member
It is literally his MO to ask for nerfs on any build that he encounters that out kills him. KC is his badge of honor, not that the game recognizes anything else, and he gets his feels hurt when anyone takes away his shiny.
Rogue Mechanic has phenomenal T5 for great crossbows, core 5 is a trap though.
Combine T5 Mechanic with Endless Fusillade, and you get good DPS as long as you have your action boosts, and you can easily get like 18 of them.
The problem is DPS outside of fusillade, but only if you really insist that such builds should exist and not be gimped.
Maybe add Fusillade/NHB equivalent to Mechanic capstone.
Monkey_Archer
Well-known member
Personally, I'd rather have the old dual shooting attack speed back, keep the doubleshot, and remove NHB entirely to compensate. Inquis feels extremely clunky with its painfully slow attack speed, especially while leveling, and its NHB that causes the overperforming. Fix both issues, rather than just nerf.
And if they would just get rid of the whole KC part of the xp window this game would be much more cooperative.
What would be the top meta right now then? if you would be so kind to enlighten me.
I am still a firm believer that inquis is top dps atm, by a fair margin, while also having less trouble building one and being able to benefit from whatever class combo you want, getting those advantages without ever worrying about what trees to spend points in.
And if you're gonna tell me that sdk barb, monk and whatever dragonlord split are all bigger and better then inquis then you've missed the point of my post entirely.
All this said, shuri monk and some repeater splits probably arent that far behind inq in dps, they do lack utility however.
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Monkey_Archer
Well-known member
Inquis (and maybe shuriken monk) are top tier for anything difficult (like raid pushing or solo r10s). The sdk/monk/DL trifecta are just good for zerging easy stuff, like r10 grouping.
At the high end the trifecta is great for soloing too.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
The tests I've seen place RXB somewhere around 20% higher boss DPS than Inquis (based on tests by the same player), but the gamefeel is a lot worse and the builds are extremely limited. But 3x actives instead of 2x adds up fast lol. Ballpark 1/3 of RXB DPS is HE, 1/3 Pluck, and only 1/3 for the rest.
Inquis is definitely better for most of DDO, but that's too large of a margin to ignore IMO.
woq
Well-known member
Haven't people been discussing moving on from inquisitors/repeaters in high end raiding for a while now and I haven't experienced any throng of inquisitors overshadowing everyone else in grouping content either.
People still harping on inquisitors only and ignoring repeaters, throwers, great crossbows, barbs, monks, 15/5, 14/5/1 builds, bears, razorclaws and whatnot aren't keeping up with the program.
They're still definitely strong and up there among the other top tier builds, but thinking inquisitors are somehow some colossally op thing above the rest of the top performers seems narrowminded - or perhaps there's something I and many others are missing. I can see the argument that inquisitor is "too easy to be decent with", but it's not far above the others when it comes to minmaxed top end builds.
When casters can reliably perform in high end raid scenarios as something other than a token CC machine or healer, we can get back to nerfing multishooters, melees and all the rest. Until then it's pointless whackamole - there will always be a best. Currently we have way more underperformers than overperformers.
People still harping on inquisitors only and ignoring repeaters, throwers, great crossbows, barbs, monks, 15/5, 14/5/1 builds, bears, razorclaws and whatnot aren't keeping up with the program.
They're still definitely strong and up there among the other top tier builds, but thinking inquisitors are somehow some colossally op thing above the rest of the top performers seems narrowminded - or perhaps there's something I and many others are missing. I can see the argument that inquisitor is "too easy to be decent with", but it's not far above the others when it comes to minmaxed top end builds.
When casters can reliably perform in high end raid scenarios as something other than a token CC machine or healer, we can get back to nerfing multishooters, melees and all the rest. Until then it's pointless whackamole - there will always be a best. Currently we have way more underperformers than overperformers.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
I think it's the ease of access and the lack of pidgeonholing. Like if you want +2 crit multi you're stuck with FB T5 or DL T5; if you want easy solid ranged DPS you're not really limited at all. You can honestly quite reasonably go something like 41/24/15 Inquis/VKF/Harper Int-max w/trance DXB build on literally any class/race mix and have great success. Shiradi and/or FS for epics will get you far there as well.
Is it miles above everything else? No, but it's at least a top contender - which given the universal access doesn't feel like should be the case. It *is* miles above most builds in DDO, however; there are a lot of weak/mediocre builds out there, but very few are Inquis. DDO's best Greatclub build probably fits in the lower third of Inquis builds lol (presuming vaguely comparable investment).
IMO universal stuff should be worse - not useless, but maybe 80% as effective - as fully investing into something. "I'm stuck in this tiny niche that I've spent hundreds of hours optimizing towards and I'm only doing 60% as much DPS as the generalist??" sorta vibe. You should be rewarded for specializing, and Inquis is the opposite of that.
woq
Well-known member
I agree! As I said, it is among the other top tier builds.
Still, after inquisitor is nerfed theres still multiple classes/archetypes performing at or close to "inquisitor-tier" and greatclubs are still awful. Fix Great Clubs and others like it first or at the same time as inquis is all I'm saying because otherwise you're in a nerfing loop for a long time.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
For sure, but I personally have less issue with specific builds than with overall styles. There are definitely outliers though (like I think DL has too much DPS stuff for how generally strong & versatile it is).
I agree; I'd prefer nerfing some styles while buffing others. Balance patches, more frequently but smaller numerically. Same with quests - take a little XP off the top ones, add a bunch to the ones nobody runs (like Tower of Frost got +61% overall XP and is still terrible IMO, but that's a huge buff).
Like nerfing Adrenaline from 8s to 9s is a great nerf! I wish they'd dropped Drifting Lotus from 15s to 12s at the same time though. Quick Cutter went from ~useless to BiS in one update, which I think is generally too much (outside like an enhancement tree/class/ED overall rework sorta thing).
Underflow
Well-known member
Extrapolating on my earlier statement about the active attacks:
As the doubleshot change was done to bring parity to other ranged weapon types, so too should the Ranged Aoe Attacks be brought to similar parity.
They went from 1 bolt with 33% scaling doubleshot to 3 shots with 100%, an effective 9x increase.
The main results of reducing the number of shots to 1 would be that the skills are no longer instant-delete buttons on low reaper, at least for low geared builds. It would not affect endgame as heavily as better ranged active attacks exist. It's a glorified love-tap nerf that only affects heroics and should overall be a minimal reduction in dps. If you're really concerned, have only one bolt splash and have any extras only affect the main target.
It'd also get rid of the degenerate triple-trip that Thunder-Shock Crossbow uses.
As the doubleshot change was done to bring parity to other ranged weapon types, so too should the Ranged Aoe Attacks be brought to similar parity.
They went from 1 bolt with 33% scaling doubleshot to 3 shots with 100%, an effective 9x increase.
The main results of reducing the number of shots to 1 would be that the skills are no longer instant-delete buttons on low reaper, at least for low geared builds. It would not affect endgame as heavily as better ranged active attacks exist. It's a glorified love-tap nerf that only affects heroics and should overall be a minimal reduction in dps. If you're really concerned, have only one bolt splash and have any extras only affect the main target.
It'd also get rid of the degenerate triple-trip that Thunder-Shock Crossbow uses.
Ying
5000+ hours played
Crossbows of all types without NHB/EF are worthless. Every build needs a "DPS burst" ability, and +30 ranged power ain't it.
OP is way off the mark about nerfing Inquis further. It's not even the top ranged build now. And neither is repeating crossbow.