Dwarf and Duergar Builds for Update 80

CrazyRanger

New member
Dwarf Dragon Apostate (SWF warhammers)

For the dwarf take, I wanted to try something different and also be more F2P first-life friendly. It shouldn't just be the whales who pre-order Terror of Demogorgon who get to have fun with Update 80's new options. ;) So I went the SWF warhammer (Onatar) route with Strength domain instead of War, since we're getting +1 critical range from dwarf tree and +2 critical multiplier from Dragonlord again, making Holy Sword unnecessary. And this time I went Dark Apostate for Apostate's Curse line and the no-save debuff abilities; I think Pray for Mercy's damage will proc Arcane Warrior stacks but I don't have an epic Dark Apostate I can use to confirm. Consider this a lowbie alternative to SWF Vistani builds.

Nightforge Hammer is a weapon that anyone can farm at level 9 (minimum level to enter the quest); and is the only warhammer with x4 critical multiplier. That becomes 16-20/x4 once you have all three critical range bonuses and 16-20/x6 with Dragonlord's Conqueror. So that'd be my pick for mid-heroics, especially for F2Pers. Again, you'll want a drow warhammer for epics if you can farm / buy one.

EDIT: Fatesinger and Shadowdancer are also good secondary trees for SWF builds.
I don't understand something about this build. You have it as a SWF using War Hammers, and you have the Diety as Favored by Silvanus which has the favored weapon as Mauls which are two handed weapons. This being the case how are the Dark Apostate: Apostate's Curse progression helping with War Hammers since it seems to only apply to the favored weapon? Is there someplace I am missing that War Hammers are also favored weapons for this build?
 

CrazyRanger

New member
I don't understand something about this build. You have it as a SWF using War Hammers, and you have the Diety as Favored by Silvanus which has the favored weapon as Mauls which are two handed weapons. This being the case how are the Dark Apostate: Apostate's Curse progression helping with War Hammers since it seems to only apply to the favored weapon? Is there someplace I am missing that War Hammers are also favored weapons for this build?
Never mind the reply, I found my mistake in the build It's regular dwarf not Duergar. Guess I need to do some feat swaps now.
 

FuzzyDuck81

Well-known member
One I'm levelling at the moment is mindsunder 15 druid 5 dragonlord (so requires a LR heart), using dire bear form, about 20APs in the racial tree to get the full embiggen & weapon lines including the ranged aoe sunder, then use heavy pick & shield (while levelling have taken knight's training for warhammers then will switch out for IC piercing at 34+, it's proving fun so far being an oversized bear

Edit: Ok, warhammers are all well and good during heroics at least but the new Oblivium Mattock from terror of demogorgon is amazing when you're in bear form or using the axe throw to let you get AoE paralysing.
 
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Deamon81

Well-known member
Is there any good Pala Tank Build? Was thinking about using Dwarven Waraxe and start with follower of Helm so I can switch later.
 

Darksteel

Well-known member
TRd into PDK Fighter Vanguard build to get the PDK past lives - realistically what is the AC/PRR/MRR ceiling for this build and how do I avoid "hey can you tank" questions from raid party if I decide to play for lengthy time (if AC/PRR/MRR is nowhere close to pure tank)? I think the DPS is okay so far.
 

Contessor

Well-known member
It's not really meant as a tank but I posted a S&B Duergar paladin.
I did this build (well similar) and really hated the weapon damage. THF is just too slow to be reliable DPS. And Visage is just so overhyped. It will stun many mobs (but not all), but the IK is so limited.

Positives, it has tons of crowd control and is very tanky (off-tankish) and sure beats being a full blown tank overall since it can kill stuff (not fast though).

My biggest issue is strength of arms is so limited in use, since you don't get lot of kills in group play. It is slow too. Solo its can do a lot but is a slog. I feel a paladin variant and/or SWF version would just be better DPS overall. It was great in heroics, but epic levelling was very slow.
 

Honkin

Well-known member
TRd into PDK Fighter Vanguard build to get the PDK past lives - realistically what is the AC/PRR/MRR ceiling for this build and how do I avoid "hey can you tank" questions from raid party if I decide to play for lengthy time (if AC/PRR/MRR is nowhere close to pure tank)? I think the DPS is okay so far.

I can hit 400 MRR/250 PRR on my 4th life vanguard (aasimar, not dwarf). in LH raids and r10 quests you can choose to embrace it. Have tanked the bosses in DoV, Relentless, and Threats on LH just fine.
 

Contessor

Well-known member
Vanguard Fighter (dwarven axe)

In the past, taking Tier-5 Vanguard locked you out from Kensei's Keen Edge (+1 critical threat range). But now you can get that from dwarf / Duergar racial tree, allowing you take T5 Vanguard. While still getting +1 critical multiplier from Kensei's level 6 core Enhancement, giving dwarven axes 18-20/x4 critical threat range.

I'm not under any illusions this is the new meta for melee builds or anything. We all have our own priorities, though.

5fg3bn3.jpeg


Primary features / Enhancements:
  • 41 Vanguard for capstone (+20% attack speed, 10% chance of stun on shield bash) and Tier-5 abilities.
  • 17 racial (dwarf or Duergar) for +1 critical threat range and +25% Strikethrough from dwarven axe. Duergar would also want to max out the Shape line + Size Mastery.
  • 11 Kensei for +1 critical multiplier and Haste Boost.
  • 6+ Harper Agent for Know the Angles (INT Battle Trance).
That's 75 APs minimum which makes it doable (if not optimal) for anyone. Extra APs let you go deeper into Kensei (e.g., Weapon Specialization, Power Surge) and/or invest in Stalwart Defender for defensive boosts including the stance if you're making a hate-tank. Probably the optimal DPS layout is 41 VG / 31 Kensei (One Cut) / 19 Duergar / 6+ Harper Agent which is 97 APs minimum - easy, right? :p

Can be built for Precision or Power Attack + barbarian Rage (past-life feat or Fury of the Wild). Not sure which is the optimal DPS choice, though using Rage lets you take advantage of other FotW bonuses (Eternal Rage, Unquenchable Rage, etc.). So plan accordingly.

There's no specific skill requirements for this build; though obviously max Intimidate if you want to be a hate-tank too. When in doubt, I put a rank into Tumble just to unlock it, then max Use Magic Device and/or Balance.

First-lifer dwarf with zero tomes or other twink gear:

Disclaimer: I'm not sure which of the new U81 feats are worth taking. I went with Legendary Strength of Arms and Epic Precision because they seemed like the obvious fits for this build. Since dwarven axes only have a 15% crit chance (18-20), Patience probably isn't worth it so I skipped it.

To be honest, it'd be faster to level with 2H weapons in early heroics (Carnifex FTW), then switch to S&B much later, like around level 12 when you can grab +10% attack speed. Which is why I prioritize THF + Whirlwind Attack + Spring Attack and delay the shield feats until mid-teens. That said, if you wanna grab a dwarven axe and shield from level one, nothing prevents you from doing so. You'll still get the extra damage and Strikethrough from THF feats, after all.

Duergar with some racial past-lives and AP tomes under its belt:

Went with a slightly different approach here, using barbarian Rage + Power Attack bonuses instead of Precision. Also picked up a couple of Toughness feats on the presumption we'll have CON 21+ with the appropriate tome. Since we didn't get a S&B barbarian Archetype with Terror of Demogorgon like I wanted, this is my attempt to approximate what I had in mind. :cool: CON-based variants with Throw Your Weight Around are also possible, if you really wanna double down on the flavor.
Just some thoughts on destiny feats that would be far more optimized.

Level 25 = PTHF is only providing +10 Melee Power and 30% strikethrough since Daxe (and bastard swords) do not beneft from more ability score dmg. Seems like Doublestrike is overall a better choice if you cannot get to 100% otherwise. Otherwise keep it.

Level 31 = Specialty Shield Mastery instead of Leg Toughness??? Assuming this stacks with Perfect Shield Mastery, which I am not sure.

Also not sure how the to hit is at current end game, but it is possible that adding Precision and swapping Epic Power Attack for Epic Precision might have to be considered. I understand you cannot drop PA becase of the pre-reqs, but you can just activate Precision instead if that is the case. I just did a mindcleaver PL with my version of this and loved it. Just some feedback.
 

Teh_Troll

Master of Baiting
I can hit 400 MRR/250 PRR on my 4th life vanguard (aasimar, not dwarf). in LH raids and r10 quests you can choose to embrace it. Have tanked the bosses in DoV, Relentless, and Threats on LH just fine.
Sounds interesting, can you provide details?
 

Contessor

Well-known member
Sounds interesting, can you provide details?
Not hard to do with Heavy Armor and Tower Shield really. Get some boost in sacred defender and unyielding sent + divine crusader as main ED. IF you follow most of what unbongwah posted that will get you mostly there. I made some difference in Enhancements, EDs and Epic Feats. For example, I went less into Kensai and more into SD for the run speed while in defense. I also went slighttly less ino Fury and took more in SD, II did not take Barb rage in Fury since it breaks ED, but primal scream does not. I also added Specialty Shield Mastery in lieu of Leg Toughness and swapped out PTHF for Bulwark of Defense, as well as Stunning Blow for Precision and Epic PA for Epic Precision. Honestly Vanguard is an impressive tree if you are S&B. I did not play it much before but was pleasanly surprised with the damage it dishes, especially with a Daxe, but imagine BS is even better.

Honestly the only issue is to hit. In r4 20-30 it sees alot of grazing hits. PA stance should not be used in mid to high reapers.
 

Honkin

Well-known member
Sounds interesting, can you provide details?
Sure, I can get you a build file for fighter later this week. A big chunk of it is in the gear, making sure you have the full enhancement/artifact/profane/insightful for both PRR and MRR. Deific Warding, Epic DR, Enhanced Form of Pain as well.

Not hard to do with Heavy Armor and Tower Shield really. Get some boost in sacred defender and unyielding sent + divine crusader as main ED. IF you follow most of what unbongwah posted that will get you mostly there. I made some difference in Enhancements, EDs and Epic Feats. For example, I went less into Kensai and more into SD for the run speed while in defense. I also went slighttly less ino Fury and took more in SD, II did not take Barb rage in Fury since it breaks ED, but primal scream does not. I also added Specialty Shield Mastery in lieu of Leg Toughness and swapped out PTHF for Bulwark of Defense, as well as Stunning Blow for Precision and Epic PA for Epic Precision. Honestly Vanguard is an impressive tree if you are S&B. I did not play it much before but was pleasanly surprised with the damage it dishes, especially with a Daxe, but imagine BS is even better.

Honestly the only issue is to hit. In r4 20-30 it sees alot of grazing hits. PA stance should not be used in mid to high reapers.

I don't run Sacred Defender or Unyielding Sentinel. I also run Fatesinger instead of FotW for the epic strike and other goodies.

Tower shield will also hard cap your dodge. I use The Vengeance Manifest. Revel in Blood + Alchemical Attunement adds a lot to your DPS.
 

Contessor

Well-known member
Sure, I can get you a build file for fighter later this week. A big chunk of it is in the gear, making sure you have the full enhancement/artifact/profane/insightful for both PRR and MRR. Deific Warding, Epic DR, Enhanced Form of Pain as well.



I don't run Sacred Defender or Unyielding Sentinel. I also run Fatesinger instead of FotW for the epic strike and other goodies.

Tower shield will also hard cap your dodge. I use The Vengeance Manifest. Revel in Blood + Alchemical Attunement adds a lot to your DPS.
In Heavy Armor you are what max 16% dodge anyways? I can easily get to 10% with the gains in sacred defender and kensei plus ship buffs anyways. I totally agree that if doing medium armor, going large shield has better value as your dodge can get close to cap anyways. But getting the gains in AC/PRR/MRR seems more beneficial to me if in Heavy Armor.

The only problem with my counter argument is that there was no good shield bashing tower shield at end game, until Leg Fiendish Requisition came with u81. This does 103 base dmg on shield bashes vs 93.5 on Vengeful, altthough losing the melancholic and dolorous slots would still put this one ahead in terms of DPS, although yoy lose the exxtra 5% Leg Conditioning assuming you have a heartshard or the new artifact equuipped.

Overall, pretty impressed with Vanguard, with my first attempt at playing one. Definitely took me more time to figure out what works and Unbungwah framework was super helpful. I have not played with shield toss although. Not sure if that is still worth considering or not. I think ti is pretty hot key intensive already to add more.
 
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Jaspar

Well-known member
First Duergar life was a pure Maul Cleric which was a heap of fun.

Current is a pure Dwsrven Axe (DA) and Buckler Fighter with full THF and Shield Mastery and also a lot of fun.

Next life Im thinking Duergar pure DA EK Wizard but Im unsure if it will work. Would you go Str or Int for the build?

THF or SWF for the fighting feats ? If SWF I assume skip the Buckler and just swing the DA?
 

Contessor

Well-known member
First Duergar life was a pure Maul Cleric which was a heap of fun.

Current is a pure Dwsrven Axe (DA) and Buckler Fighter with full THF and Shield Mastery and also a lot of fun.

Next life Im thinking Duergar pure DA EK Wizard but Im unsure if it will work. Would you go Str or Int for the build?

THF or SWF for the fighting feats ? If SWF I assume skip the Buckler and just swing the DA?
SWF is far better, unless you are planning shield bashes. I hate EK, so not going to give much help there.

If you are looking for fun choices, maybe consider Monk DDM with handaxe, picks or warhammers (can stay centered in t4). You could also splash some bard for swashbuckling help.

Something like SWF Haxe 12Monk/5DragonLord/3Bard looks like it would be fun and would largely better than EK.
 
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Hobgoblin

Less Nerfy Nerfy more fixy fixy
SWF is far better, unless you are planning shield bashes. I hate EK, so not going to give much help there.

If you are looking for fun choices, maybe consider Monk DDM with handaxe, picks or warhammers (can stay centered in t4). You could also splash some bard for swashbuckling help.

Something like SWF Haxe 12Monk/5DragonLord/3Bard looks like it would be fun and would largely better than EK.
as a note can we stop saying monk ddm or ddm monk?


It grates on my writing lol

monk dragon disciple monk or dragon disciple monk monk
 

drjoans

kinda-known member
SWF is far better, unless you are planning shield bashes. I hate EK, so not going to give much help there.

If you are looking for fun choices, maybe consider Monk DDM with handaxe, picks or warhammers (can stay centered in t4). You could also splash some bard for swashbuckling help.

Something like SWF Haxe 12Monk/5DragonLord/3Bard looks like it would be fun and would largely better than EK.
can't do bard/monk mixes: monks must be lawful and bards cant be lawful
 
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