Dwarf fighter/Cleric/Rogue 12/7/1

[jaeler]

I am working on a new character. My vision is a dwarf with an axe and a shield. I started as level 1 rogue for traps, i want 7 cleric levels for Fom and death ward. I will probably also use the general restoration type spells, heal domain for the heal sla. probably trickster for a really big heal.

So now I am looking at the fighter trees. I want vanguard 39 pts. then about 4 pts (maybe 5) kensia for the reed attack, that looks beefy, and it works well with bash.

so now that takes me to the stalwarth defense tree. I see on t4 i can get +6 str and +50% ac for 6 pts, so that puts me at 70 pts, then the last ten (13) in the dwarf tree, those seem like useful enough combat skills.

For feats, i want both the thf and the shield mastery, so thats 6 points, another 3 for spring attack. probably a point into empower heal, so thats 10, i should have 3 more. so maybe power attack and cleave/ greater cleave? (I usually dual wield, so i don't usually need cleave) I think the strike through will be enough for yard trash. My instincts would be to go with improved sunder, precision and improved critical (in general i would rather build attacks for boss mobs than yard trash)

of course mu biggest concern is the lack of imbue danage. I consider possibly throwing 4 points into the assassin poison tree. Its not really a great imbue, but it does allow me the extra imbue dice damage at higher levels. For epics, I haven't really decided. but I really like primal avatar. The mantle does a lot of damage, and adding coccons to my heal spells would be nice. The unlimited mana is the real clincher. Then I consider possibly shadowdancer for extra trap points, and dimension door, and divine crusader for unbreakable weapons

any thoughts?

 

[unbongwah]

I posted this build a couple of months ago. Different class split from yours, but with the same issues, namely:

• You're trying to play a trapper on a race / class combo with the least amount of skill points, meaning you're going to need a lot of INT to maintain trap skills, which would otherwise be a dump stat. That build succeeds through the magic of Supreme tomes and best-in-slot trapper gear, probably.
• S&B is the weakest melee DPS style and you've made it weaker by not putting a lot of points into Kensei for Haste Boost, Strike with No Thought, etc. As I said in that other thread, one advantage of paladin 15-based builds is two of your most important DPS buffs come from level 4 spells so you always have access to them, regardless of how you spend your APs. Fighters aren't so lucky.
• I'm not sure cleric 7 is giving you much over what a S&B paladin gets. More spell points and Cure MW SLA, sure, but you're giving up a lot, too.

So your build as proposed will have low DPS and not much more healing than a paladin. It will have high threat from all the points put into Stalwart Defender, but your feats suggest you want to be melee-oriented, not a full-time tank.

 

[jaeler]

1 lvl of rogue is not a trapper, but it is really easy to build a few skills with gear. Thats only 6 slots out of 75? I can craft anything, and i already have a ton of trapper gear, and of course i have tomes for stats. As for haste, thats one yellow augment, so that not a real problem. The real damage is crits. You are obviously sold on paladin, but they have no feats, which you seem to underestimate. the 12 fighter has 7 feats to pay for shield/2h style and imp crit. then another 7 feats, for emp heal, spell haste, dodge, mobilty, spring attack, precision and extend cast: that way my death ward and FOM are 20 minute casts

I figure from enhancements i should be at least +11 to hit/damage, toss in some seek my crits will hit for over a thousand every few seconds. its certainly not as much damage as my dual wielding rogue with ek. but i am certain it will take down bosses with ease. I am just playing around with it for something different.

In fairness, i looked at your build, and if the standard is to have 111 constitution, 63 dex, 15,000 hps, 781 ac on a first life fighter, without all the best in slot items in the game, well you will be disappointed no matter what build i use. My goals are a bit more realistic. i am not going to spend years farming infinite past lives. I am going to take the character to 30, and maybe i will work on a few past lives. for now i want the utility to overcome any obstacle in my way. i know what to expect, and i don't think i will need 15000 hp.

 

[Vox]

Attacking one of the better theory builders on the forums is an interesting tactic Cotton.

1 lvl of rogue is not a trapper

It really is. If you have enough intelligence you can take the skill points of search & disable, added to gear swaps you can search and disable any trap in the game that can be disabled

As for haste, thats one yellow augment

That's not what he said. A topaz of swiftness provides a different bonus type to action boost haste.

The real damage is crits.

The problem with this is that you're not taking anything to add to your main hand crit range or multiplier, only your shield. Your shield bash is hard capped at hitting an enemy only 1 time per second.

I figure from enhancements i should be at least +11 to hit/damage, toss in some seek my crits will hit for over a thousand every few seconds.

As above.

In fairness, i looked at your build, and if the standard is to have 111 constitution, 63 dex, 15,000 hps, 781 ac on a first life fighter, without all the best in slot items in the game, well you will be disappointed no matter what build i use. My goals are a bit more realistic.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I can offer anything to help your sentiment here.

any thoughts?

From your OP, it looks like you want a self sufficient tanky melee who can deal with traps. Your outline also appears to have you going deep into the shield damage tree (vanguard) and the tank tree (defender). You want cleric levels for the limited self heals and the defensive spells.

My thoughts are that Unbongwah's build does everything your build set out to do, but quite a bit better (with the exception of spells like freedom of movement, although you can get that on gear).

 

[droid327]

Yeah it feels like you're just trying to build a paladin with more steps

Yes fighter gets bonus feats but what are you spending them on? 3x Shield Mastery gets you 10 dstrike and 9 mp...15 pal gets you 10 dstrike and 15 mp. You don't really need feats like extend or spring attack either. THFx3 ic precision, then dodge mob or quicken emp heal will cover your needs.

And as the others pointed out, you have invested very little in actually killing mobs, which means you're going to have a very slow and cumbersome time trying to level

 

[jaeler]

Yeah it feels like you're just trying to build a paladin with more steps

Yes fighter gets bonus feats but what are you spending them on? 3x Shield Mastery gets you 10 dstrike and 9 mp...15 pal gets you 10 dstrike and 15 mp. You don't really need feats like extend or spring attack either. THFx3 ic precision, then dodge mob or quicken emp heal will cover your needs.

And as the others pointed out, you have invested very little in actually killing mobs, which means you're going to have a very slow and cumbersome time trying to level

Finally some semi helpful feedback. I didn't specify which points i was buying in each tree. I did say I was buying improved crit (and then i will get epic crit enhancement as well. ) In VG Myrmidons edge gives +3 to crit. then the rest will have to be through gear (which i have plenty of crit gear.) I should have overall about + 10 to crit, that should be a crit ever 3-5 seconds.

Now you ask the question, why multi over paladin, I can answer that. As a multi class, I lose the capstone. What i gain is extra mana, better spells, and more feats. I will be a better healer than a paladin, and a better tank, and I will be able to disable traps. It's that simple. I have played this game long enough, that I can solo to level 30. with the multi life xp penalty, and recieve a first time xp bonus on every mission. I have done this many times. Never in my experience did i need 15000 hp or 751 ac. What i did need was a way to avoid level drains and to heal, and a way to disable traps

Another thing i learned, Is that after epic abilities, the game fundamentally changes. I will probably use about 7 heroic spells. freedom of movement and deathward are two of those. (heal, restoration, remove curse, blessing, protection from evil) If I get primal avatar, I will have unlimited mana. With the improved moderate heal sla, that is a third cocoon i can probably weave in. Another benefit of the mantle. As for damage, that mantle adds in a 500-1000 pt burst ever 3 seconds ( one fire, one light every 6) then add in first blood, the damage to helpless feat, and I think i will do just fine on damage. (between mantle and first strike that's a 1000 pt burst every 2 seconds, and then crit damage)

Finally can we address the other build. That was obviously not a real build. Why would you pump 111 points into constitution, and then not buy the constitution to damage enhancement out of the dwarf tree? That like +87 damage. Because they had to pump everything into defense and con, just to show off. Then they were using a character with how many past lives? 100? 200? and of course, they probably put themselves in a reaper dungeon, so they added all those boosts. They spent a 1000 plat to wipe enh tree, to make a min max build, just to show that their toon was a deity. And yes, that is true. Thats 20 years of constant raiding. Guess what, that character could reincarnate into class and be just as impressive. In DDO, character levels are determined by past lives, so its probably not fair to compare a diety to a first life character going on 6th level.

From my experience, I basically destroy everything in sight. I haven't gotten into reapers yet, because I haven't even opened any reaper missions up. Overall, I think the character is fun to play, and it seems very survivable. After some past lives, I will reconsider the build. Maybe go full warrior, once I have an inherent mana pool and regen toggle. For now i will just focus on getting my first epic reincarnation. I got all my completionists on my rogue, so I don't want to keep reincarnating them, I was looking for a new project.

 

[droid327]

Finally some semi helpful feedback. I didn't specify which points i was buying in each tree. I did say I was buying improved crit (and then i will get epic crit enhancement as well. ) In VG Myrmidons edge gives +3 to crit. then the rest will have to be through gear (which i have plenty of crit gear.) I should have overall about + 10 to crit, that should be a crit ever 3-5 seconds.

Now you ask the question, why multi over paladin, I can answer that. As a multi class, I lose the capstone. What i gain is extra mana, better spells, and more feats. I will be a better healer than a paladin, and a better tank, and I will be able to disable traps. It's that simple. I have played this game long enough, that I can solo to level 30. with the multi life xp penalty, and recieve a first time xp bonus on every mission. I have done this many times. Never in my experience did i need 15000 hp or 751 ac. What i did need was a way to avoid level drains and to heal, and a way to disable traps

Another thing i learned, Is that after epic abilities, the game fundamentally changes. I will probably use about 7 heroic spells. freedom of movement and deathward are two of those. (heal, restoration, remove curse, blessing, protection from evil) If I get primal avatar, I will have unlimited mana. With the improved moderate heal sla, that is a third cocoon i can probably weave in. Another benefit of the mantle. As for damage, that mantle adds in a 500-1000 pt burst ever 3 seconds ( one fire, one light every 6) then add in first blood, the damage to helpless feat, and I think i will do just fine on damage. (between mantle and first strike that's a 1000 pt burst every 2 seconds, and then crit damage)

Finally can we address the other build. That was obviously not a real build. Why would you pump 111 points into constitution, and then not buy the constitution to damage enhancement out of the dwarf tree? That like +87 damage. Because they had to pump everything into defense and con, just to show off. Then they were using a character with how many past lives? 100? 200? and of course, they probably put themselves in a reaper dungeon, so they added all those boosts. They spent a 1000 plat to wipe enh tree, to make a min max build, just to show that their toon was a deity. And yes, that is true. Thats 20 years of constant raiding. Guess what, that character could reincarnate into class and be just as impressive. In DDO, character levels are determined by past lives, so its probably not fair to compare a diety to a first life character going on 6th level.

From my experience, I basically destroy everything in sight. I haven't gotten into reapers yet, because I haven't even opened any reaper missions up. Overall, I think the character is fun to play, and it seems very survivable. After some past lives, I will reconsider the build. Maybe go full warrior, once I have an inherent mana pool and regen toggle. For now i will just focus on getting my first epic reincarnation. I got all my completionists on my rogue, so I don't want to keep reincarnating them, I was looking for a new project.

Mmk first off you're being super arrogant and condescending towards people who were giving you good advice

Second, you're showing your ignorance of how the game actually works by pointing to all the "advantages" you're getting, when they're actually very trivial things. Things like Seeker are not what you center your offensive build around...and (as has been pointed out) Shield builds are already the weakest melee style, and you're gimping it by going deep into defensive trees. That 1 crit every 3-4 seconds you're putting all your eggs in? That isnt going to compete with actual DPS builds. 1000 damage every 2 seconds is pretty trivial when endgame quest bosses have like 200-500k HP. A solid endgame character can be soloing most Medium quests in about 4-5 mins on R1, start to finish. If you're not there, then you're not "destroying everything" as much as you think you are

Things that you center a build around are things like high-crit-profile weapons like kukri, falchion, longsword with Knights Training, and then even more crit from enhancments...attack speed bonuses...stacking Doublestrike up to 100%...big sources of Melee Power and main stat...battle trances that align with your main stat...etc.

Also that build you keep disparaging was a tank build. Its not "showing off", its specifically designed to be as tanky as possible while eschewing offense, with the idea that you always play it with groupmates who can do the killing while you soak up all the damage on extremely high-tier content, like endgame Reaper raiding. What you seem to be trying to do here is a tanky melee for general questing/solo/leveling...but you're skipping all the melee parts, and just making a very low-power tank.

And then you're also overvaluing things like healing (Paladins heal just fine, between Cure Wounds for topping off and Lay on Hands for big burst heal), but not investing enough to actually become a full-fledged group healer. You're also overvaluing utility abilities like DW, FoM, Remove Curse etc. that can be easily obtained through clickies, gear, scrolls, or even just potions.

 

[Vox]

From my experience, I basically destroy everything in sight. I haven't gotten into reapers yet, because I haven't even opened any reaper missions up.

OP if you feel that your build meets your expectations for the content that you run, then good for you.

 

[jaeler]

Mmk first off you're being super arrogant and condescending towards people who were giving you good advice

Second, you're showing your ignorance of how the game actually works by pointing to all the "advantages" you're getting, when they're actually very trivial things. Things like Seeker are not what you center your offensive build around...and (as has been pointed out) Shield builds are already the weakest melee style, and you're gimping it by going deep into defensive trees. That 1 crit every 3-4 seconds you're putting all your eggs in? That isnt going to compete with actual DPS builds. 1000 damage every 2 seconds is pretty trivial when endgame quest bosses have like 200-500k HP. A solid endgame character can be soloing most Medium quests in about 4-5 mins on R1, start to finish. If you're not there, then you're not "destroying everything" as much as you think you are

Things that you center a build around are things like high-crit-profile weapons like kukri, falchion, longsword with Knights Training, and then even more crit from enhancments...attack speed bonuses...stacking Doublestrike up to 100%...big sources of Melee Power and main stat...battle trances that align with your main stat...etc.

Also that build you keep disparaging was a tank build. Its not "showing off", its specifically designed to be as tanky as possible while eschewing offense, with the idea that you always play it with groupmates who can do the killing while you soak up all the damage on extremely high-tier content, like endgame Reaper raiding. What you seem to be trying to do here is a tanky melee for general questing/solo/leveling...but you're skipping all the melee parts, and just making a very low-power tank.

And then you're also overvaluing things like healing (Paladins heal just fine, between Cure Wounds for topping off and Lay on Hands for big burst heal), but not investing enough to actually become a full-fledged group healer. You're also overvaluing utility abilities like DW, FoM, Remove Curse etc. that can be easily obtained through clickies, gear, scrolls, or even just potions.

Except I am being advised from the God mode character to put even more points into Defense. Now i look at their build, they have every possible point spent in constituion. for 10 points they have 5 constitution. Do you think could get by with 106 constitution? Cause thats ten points they could spend to do damge based on constitution in the dawrf tree ( which since their str is 37, and their con is 111, doesn't make any sense.)

as for damage, like defense, it is all about multilayer. for instance i did see that for 4 points in falcon I can add +3 to crit, so with vanguard that +6. which is a good point investment.

As for vangard, maybe it is light offense, but that is what i want the character to be. I want a Shield and Axe dwarf. That is non negotiable. As for a full group healer, well thats where the epics come in. I am not building my heals off of heroics. And finally, I just got my first reaper level. It took more than 5 minutes a mission on a first life character. With my primary i solo reaper missions all the time. I just get a little bored with it. I wanted to do something else

As for being super arrogant, i would say that I am just being ratioed by the forum gatekeepers, and they haven't earned my respect.

 

[Aelastiar]

Lol

 

[unbongwah]

1 lvl of rogue is not a trapper

Literally your first paragraph said:

I started as level 1 rogue for traps

I'm not sure what the distinction you're trying to make is?

In any case, I think you missed the point I was trying to make with the build I linked, but others have already addressed your build so good luck and have fun.

 

[droid327]

Except I am being advised from the God mode character to put even more points into Defense.

You should go back and look through that thread he linked instead of just being snarky. Nowhere does he actually recommend that build. It was a niche flavor build because someone asked for a CON based dwarf trapper. He was pointing to it because its similar to your request, but also because people had already discussed a lot of the drawbacks of what you're asking for there, so its relevant.

as for damage, like defense, it is all about multilayer. for instance i did see that for 4 points in falcon I can add +3 to crit, so with vanguard that +6. which is a good point investment.

As for vangard, maybe it is light offense, but that is what i want the character to be. I want a Shield and Axe dwarf. That is non negotiable. As for a full group healer, well thats where the epics come in. I am not building my heals off of heroics. And finally, I just got my first reaper level. It took more than 5 minutes a mission on a first life character. With my primary i solo reaper missions all the time. I just get a little bored with it. I wanted to do something else

Shield and Axe dwarf is perfectly doable. You're just probably better off as a KotC Paladin with Vanguard second, and maybe splash 2 rogue 2 fighter if you want trapping. Vanguard is pretty much only about the attack speed buffs in the cores, that's the only thing that kinda salvages it. But its a pretty junk tree outside that, which makes it very low-value trying to get to 30-40 AP to unlock the last 2 cores. Shield bash itself is junk because of the 1 sec ICD, and because it doesnt doublestrike (until L30 with the DC T5).

37 KotC 25 Van 6 SaD 7 Fey 7 Kensei should give you everything worthwhile at the price in those trees - you get 10% attack speed, 3 MDB, Shield Smash, and Stunning Shield with extra MP in Van, basic Sac Def stance, and Haste Boost with Reed. Reed + Shield Bash should let you stack your Battle Guard very efficiently. That'd be a Battleaxe build with KT since you'd need Favored for Blessed Purpose and the KotC imbue (and its not worth the AP to Favor it unless you have enough RAP). You'd have Holy Sword + Zeal + 16 PRR MRR MP from Pal buffs, CMW + LoH + EDs for heals, and trapping with swap gear. Evasion too if you wanted to go Light Armor + Small Shield...you'd definitely have the saves for that.

Or you could go 14 Pal 5 Dlord 1 Rogue, that's pretty boilerpate too. That'd probably go 36 Dlord 25 Van 8 SaD 11 KotC (so you can keep GResto on your Rem Disease). That has to choose between Zeal and Holy Sword, though, in order to add trapping. But its a STR build with a STR trance, so you could mix in Stunning Blow with Stunning Shield, and you could go DAxe since you dont need Favored (probably skip the Shield Mastery line and just take Shield Spec at 31).

As for being super arrogant, i would say that I am just being ratioed by the forum gatekeepers, and they haven't earned my respect.

No, you're just not understanding (or actually reading) what people are showing you, so you assume it must be because they're just being elitist

There are no gatekeepers here, its not that kinda community. People share their thoughts because they like talking about the game and theorycrafting. If they thought you were just a scrub, they'd just tell you your build request is a non-starter (e.g. Summoner builds, Thorns builds, etc.), or just ignore your thread.

Read through everything again and dont assume toxic intent, it'll probably seem better

 

[Dewboy691]

Attacking one of the better theory builders on the forums is an interesting tactic Cotton.

Yes, I heard Jason Bateman's voice!!!