ED's for PM

Timmius

Active member
i'm currently going up draconic and magus, i used to put points in EA but they nerfed holy presence so i'm a bit at a loss for a 3rd tree. any suggestions? thanks
 

FuzzyDuck81

Well-known member
Primal avatar is never wrong^^ Shard storm temp hp and 2 Int is neat
Yep I take this on most casters. Rejuvenating cocoon is great & since the change to carrion swarm i usually go with the fire epic strike to give an AoE heal for occasional use to support the group, then shard storm for a nice fire & forget damage/temp HP shield as for a PM especially as poison & negative energy spellpower & crit chance are tied together on most gear so it'll have a solid kick. If points aren't too tight, cram in the 3rd core too to boost your energy absorbtion & protection from energy.
 
Primal for evasion mostly, but +2 int is nice. (22 pts?)
Draconic for ruin intensified, since I solo a lot.
Then i use EA for heals (16 pts i think). The mass heal and cocoon really help my guildmates who are more casual. We usually run sagas on R4 or R6 depending.

If you are running magus up to 22 pts, I highly suggest moon lance with greater beams as the cold works on every non-red named. I miss it a ton.

Am I right to say welcome back? Your thread on asking about gearing PM's really brought out a lot of good discussion that helped me out, so thanks for posting. Are you on Sarlona?
 

Timmius

Active member
Primal for evasion mostly, but +2 int is nice. (22 pts?)
Draconic for ruin intensified, since I solo a lot.
Then i use EA for heals (16 pts i think). The mass heal and cocoon really help my guildmates who are more casual. We usually run sagas on R4 or R6 depending.

If you are running magus up to 22 pts, I highly suggest moon lance with greater beams as the cold works on every non-red named. I miss it a ton.

Am I right to say welcome back? Your thread on asking about gearing PM's really brought out a lot of good discussion that helped me out, so thanks for posting. Are you on Sarlona?
thx. yep on Sarlona
 

magnus2882

Well-known member
No offence to any of the poster's that replied, but their advice is pure garbage.. Not sure they even read the title of your post.. PM stands for Pale Master. No need for EA, PA, or any of that crap. A properly built PM doesn't need Rejuvenation, Cocoon, or any other secondary healing abilities. DA and GDA is more than you need.. Invest in sufficient Negative Healing Amp and save your Destiny Points for something actually useful to your build...

Now let me address some of the bad advice/suggestions :

Primal avatar is never wrong^^ Shard storm temp hp and 2 Int is neat

Shard storm temp HP irrelevant for a PM, the second you get hit you should be at FULL HP in the next second.

SD provide Weird, so...

That would involve going Tier 5 into SD, not to mention 30 wasted Destiny Points into the wrong tree for a PM. Much better splitting your points between MotE and DI, with maximum 1 point into any other tree to get the extra DC/SP/USP


ep I take this on most casters. Rejuvenating cocoon is great & since the change to carrion swarm i usually go with the fire epic strike to give an AoE heal for occasional use to support the group, then shard storm for a nice fire & forget damage/temp HP shield as for a PM especially as poison & negative energy spellpower & crit chance are tied together on most gear so it'll have a solid kick. If points aren't too tight, cram in the 3rd core too to boost your energy absorbtion & protection from energy.
Ignore all of this. Doesn't apply to a PM.


Primal for evasion mostly, but +2 int is nice. (22 pts?)
Draconic for ruin intensified, since I solo a lot.
Then i use EA for heals (16 pts i think). The mass heal and cocoon really help my guildmates who are more casual. We usually run sagas on R4 or R6 depending.

If you are running magus up to 22 pts, I highly suggest moon lance with greater beams as the cold works on every non-red named. I miss it a ton.
Ruin, Greater Ruin is a waste of 2 feats IF your aim is to do damage - solo or not. a PM should depend on Negative Spell Power, Crit Chance, and Crit Multiplier combined with SLAS to do 99% of their damage.

Again heals should come from your Auras, not any other source.

Moon lance is the wrong choice for a PM. PM's are
NEGATIVE power based, NOT COLD! Change for Gloom Spear.. It's the most damaging attack you can have... On trash mobs I always do over 50k damage from Gloom Spear, more than Necrotic Blast, More than Necrotic Ray. Gloom Spear is your friend.. And it only uses 5Sp and has a 5 second cooldown.


You are on Sarlona?

message Kyrentheis and i'll help you with your PM build. I solo most content, and usually solo Epics on R6 and Legendarys on R4.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
No, magnus, their advice is not garbage, and your point of view is very narrow.

I also use PA in my wizard. Cocoon is not for me, it is to help other characters when I group. Temporary points are very good when solo on high difficulty: they help you endure a hit that would have otherwise killed you. For self healing, you use negative spells with a PM, yeah, but it’s not bad can heal others. And a +2 to int is not to be sneered at. Evasion helps a lot.

I sometimes use SD instead of primal, especially on characters with little or no ED points (like in hardcore). But I never reach tier 5. Weird requires investing too many points in a very weak ED in the higher tiers.

The advantage of exalted angel is the mobility that the wings give. While I usually use Magus as a third destiny (because of the illusion DC, I generally don't invest too much in this ED either), sometimes wings are invaluable. The ED's healing abilities are, once again, for other characters. Helping other people shouldn't be seen as "garbage." However, I pick gloomspear too; t's not a good strike, but there are no good strikes now.

Ruin and gRuin are basically essential for the wizard who wants to play alone. Negative damage is a trap due to its many immunities. You should have high negative spellpower to be able to self-heal well and deal damage with your few negative spells, but relying on negative for all your damage is putting yourself in a trap.

I solo on r8. sometimes in r10, but since the nerf to spellcasting on bigh reaper it's too slow and frustrating.
 
No offence to any of the poster's that replied, but their advice is pure garbage.. Not sure they even read the title of your post.. PM stands for Pale Master. No need for EA, PA, or any of that crap. A properly built PM doesn't need Rejuvenation, Cocoon, or any other secondary healing abilities. DA and GDA is more than you need.. Invest in sufficient Negative Healing Amp and save your Destiny Points for something actually useful to your build...

Now let me address some of the bad advice/suggestions :



Shard storm temp HP irrelevant for a PM, the second you get hit you should be at FULL HP in the next second.



That would involve going Tier 5 into SD, not to mention 30 wasted Destiny Points into the wrong tree for a PM. Much better splitting your points between MotE and DI, with maximum 1 point into any other tree to get the extra DC/SP/USP



Ignore all of this. Doesn't apply to a PM.



Ruin, Greater Ruin is a waste of 2 feats IF your aim is to do damage - solo or not. a PM should depend on Negative Spell Power, Crit Chance, and Crit Multiplier combined with SLAS to do 99% of their damage.

Again heals should come from your Auras, not any other source.

Moon lance is the wrong choice for a PM. PM's are
NEGATIVE power based, NOT COLD! Change for Gloom Spear.. It's the most damaging attack you can have... On trash mobs I always do over 50k damage from Gloom Spear, more than Necrotic Blast, More than Necrotic Ray. Gloom Spear is your friend.. And it only uses 5Sp and has a 5 second cooldown.


You are on Sarlona?

message Kyrentheis and i'll help you with your PM build. I solo most content, and usually solo Epics on R6 and Legendarys on R4.
Not trying to get into it with you, although calling advice from players "pure garbage" is probably asking for it, but Sarlonans need to stick together. I ran negative and its just not great. Immune/healed is too common in the game. EA is group friendly and IIRC Timmius is all about grouping. I think the loss of healing wall had a big impact and I am offering a suggestion that feels pretty good. I just ran a set of R10's with some players here that I am used to running with and I was the main cc/insta AND the party healer. Zero deaths and a few close calls (pats self on back)
 

magnus2882

Well-known member
Lazuli... you are right about one thing, my view is very narrow.. Building a proper PM doesn't leave much room for error. The dev's have not given the same love to PM as other casters - i.e. Master of the dead still broken after 6 years, certain mobs don't adhere to unholy avatar (i.e thrall of the fungus lord); and Epic past lives energy criticals not working with negative energy.

That being said, you can't paint a PM with the same broad strokes as you would any other caster build - even a standard wizard.
It sounds to me that you don't have much experience playing a pure PM. This is not your standard wizard build.

SD, PA, EA does nothing for a PM build.. it's a waste of time to say otherwise. And yes, it's BAD advise.. Maybe using the term ' garbage' was a little intense, hence why I prelimed it with ' no offence'.

Ruin and GRuin are a waste of time as i've already stated for a PM. Don't try and confuse people and say otherwise. Like I have already said, Those 2 feats can be better spent, and you don't need those to do massive amounts of damage. You just need Gloom Spear and Necrotic Blast.. and maybe Necrotic Ray and Render the Soul. With Gloom Spear, I one shot reapers on Legendary R4, and Epic R8... And i'm not even fully built.. I'm currently sitting at 70% Spell crit Chance and 85% Spell crit - which soon will be 110 % once I finish my mats for 15% legendary crit and 10% from 2 filigrees i'm missing..

About the temp hp... It's not necessary if you know how to properly build a PM.. 2500 HP is not hard to get on a PM, with 100+ PRR.. and if you let a monster get close enough to hit you, then you are doing something wrong... All mobs should die before they get anywhere even close to you. That's why having 1000 Neg spell power and 85% spell crit comes in handy.... I hit a mob with gloom spear and it gets hit for over 50k damage.
 

magnus2882

Well-known member
Not trying to get into it with you, although calling advice from players "pure garbage" is probably asking for it, but Sarlonans need to stick together. I ran negative and its just not great. Immune/healed is too common in the game. EA is group friendly and IIRC Timmius is all about grouping. I think the loss of healing wall had a big impact and I am offering a suggestion that feels pretty good. I just ran a set of R10's with some players here that I am used to running with and I was the main cc/insta AND the party healer. Zero deaths and a few close calls (pats self on back)
Look, I call a spade a spade. I'm hoping people on this forum have thick enough skin that they can handle being told they are given bad advise. I stand behind what I said. No offence, but I don't need a lecture on etiquette. I call it how it is. If you tried negative and didn't like it maybe it's not your cup of tea? There is just as many mobs in the game immune to acid,fire,etc etc. as negative... That's why they gave sorcs the ability to strip immunities. and NO, undead are not counted in that measure, Unholy avatar + Draconic Incarnation makes undead a non issue when it comes to negative energy. ;)
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I'm not going to get into discussions again. I agree that the devs haven't given the love to wizard that they have given to other classes.

But I have a lot of experience playing pure wizards. My main is pure wizard. I have been playing pure wizards for the 13 years I have been playing this game, going through all the mechanical changes that this game has gone through. Like I said, I'm able to solo play my wizard comfortably on r8. I can really do it in r10, but from the nerf to all the spellcasting in high reaper it makes you want to torture yourself.

There is no such thing as a "pure pm" build. Nowadays you are not tied to a single prestige like in the past. You will take PM, and you will take other enhancement trees, such as archmage or feydark. My wizard is PM, with the PM capstone and tier 5 archmage. She is cured with negative. She does good damage with negative spells. But I don't put her in the trap of trusting all his dps to the negative. That doesn't mean she's not a PM.

What does exist are different ways to play the wizard. You can be a 100% dedicated DC caster with hardly any damage. In that case, the Ruin and gRuin feats are not necessary, no. What's more, if you are always going to play in a group, considering tier 5 of the magus is not a bad idea. The melees in the group love time stop, and time stop is interesting for raids.

But if you want to play solo, then those two feats help a lot. You can't rely on negative damage for many mobs. All types of constructs, including golems: immune to negative. Mobs with deathward. Non-undead mobs that are cured with negative, like nightmares. Worse, many times the negative options in EDs (like negative mantle options), do not work well with unholy avatar, not removing immunity to undead as they should.

No, magnus, I have a lot of experience with wizard. If the OP is looking for a trash dealer who will always go in a group, then the thing is simple: no multiclass, all you can in DC, intelligence and negative spellpower for better selfhealing. But if he wants a PM wizard that does things other than CC/IKs, then he has to think about having other types of damage spells that allow him to get around mob immunities. This doesn't mean stop being a PM or stop being a DC caster. It means not over-specializing so much that you get blocked against mobs like golems.

PA is never bad, both for the wizard who wants to have dps, and for the wizard 100% Dc. Why? More DC. For that reason alone it is difficult to say that it is an ED that does not belong to the PM (themathucally is pretty silly for PM, but devs destroyed all thematic coherence a long time ago). It also has many other additional advantages. It is not an essential ED. But it's good. And don't underestimate the survivability that evasion provides, whether from the SD or the PA. Not everything is DC or damage. Surviving is also important.

Regarding temp hps: I have 3K hps in reaper. I still love those temporary hps when soloing or short manning on high reaper. They have saved me in some other raids, also on less difficulty.

That's my advice for the OP: choose the style of wizard you want to play, and build from there.


Also consider going pure wizard... A PM's greatest asset is their capstone. Having 2 Auras and 300 Neg Amp allows me to survive doing Epic R8's and Leg. R4's.. Lots of builds can so traps
Leg r4 is a cakewalk... r6 is a cakewalk...
 
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magnus2882

Well-known member
I'm not going to get into discussions again.
That's exactly what you are doing! i'm not trying to refute 90% of what you are saying Lazuli, but I think you love to argue for the sake of arguing.

Although you articulated yourself nicely in that long reply, I just want to make the point that you often post things based on your own personal bias and suppositions. Many of the things you write are factual, however a few of the things you write are erroneous. I'm not here to argue with you over the nuances of what you think makes a great wizard build. You go tier 5 AM, I go tier 5 Pm - to each their own! I personally, can't do a PM life without having necrotic blast.. it's a game changer as soon as you get to level 12, and it serves me right thru and up to legendary...

I will, however point out things that you say that are misinformation - that is demonstrably false, i.e. you wrote that Deathward blocks negative energy. This is incorrect. All you have to do is run TOR and watch every single giant cast deathward on themselves and I can kill them only using negative energy.

No, magnus, I have a lot of experience with wizard. If the OP is looking for a trash dealer who will always go in a group, then the thing is simple: no multiclass, all you can in DC, intelligence and negative spellpower for better selfhealing. But if he wants a PM wizard that does things other than CC/IKs, then he has to think about having other types of damage spells that allow him to get around mob immunities.
I already stated I do believe more than once, and hopefully for the last time, that to get around mob immunities there is a plethora of options: Acid Well, Arcane Tempest, Cyclone, GShout etc. etc. You don't have to consider making a different build in order to address that issue. The fact of the matter is, there are a tiny fraction of mobs in the game that you have to use other spells to circumvent. This attitude of " there are too many mobs immune to neg energy " is not only false, but kinda funny actually...

I certainly hope we have put this to bed, and you don't have to follow me around various threads trying to debunk what I have to say, when time after time I have either proven you wrong demonstrably, or corrected your misinformation.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
Oh yes, I have tried to play a build like the one you say. I have simply found it less efficient for how I want play my wizard. It works, I didn't say it doesn't work. In fact, you have been the one who has classified the other options presented as garbage and said that they do not belong to a PM, as if your build were the ony true one.

But as I said before, there are many ways to build in DDO, and the wizard is no exception. Yes, I don't doubt that your build will work for you. But it is not the only way to build a PM.

Personally, to have less dps than a nuker and problems with immunities, I prefer to be a DC caster with full dps autonomy and have a full nuker with one class with bypass, but I think it's great if you prefer the negative nuker, or those who prefer 100% DC without any dps. The beauty of DDO is that it allows many types of builds.

In any case, I have given my advice, which is valid (because it works very well in my toon and some guildies that follow the build), for a certain wizard platstyle. For other types of playstyle, many other guides have been given. For example yours, magnus, for the negative nuker.
 

magnus2882

Well-known member
please don't put words in my mouth. At no point did I state that my pm is the only way to be a pm. Your sarcasm is also noted. It's ok I don't take offence. I personally find that it's easier to build a pm for dps then to chase DCS.. Many people that try out for the first time being a pm could potentially get discouraged as end game content demands your dcs to be well over 100 which isn't easy to get and requires many past lives, raid gear, raid filigrees etc... it's just not viable for someone who hasn't spent a very long time building for that.

btw, I don't have less dps than a pure ' nuker' and I don't have problems with immunities..:cool:
 
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Lazuli

Well-known member
I have not used any sarcasm. In fact I have tried to be conciliatory.

But I'll leave the debate here. I'm just saying that there are many ways to build a PM... neither mine nor yours are the only possible and true ones. I have tried to share what has worked best for me, but I still say that depending on the expected playstyle the build should be different.

I leave the debate. Good luck, OP. I hope you get the build that best suits your way of playing
 

I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
No offence to any of the poster's that replied, but their advice is pure garbage.. Not sure they even read the title of your post.. PM stands for Pale Master. No need for EA, PA, or any of that crap. A properly built PM doesn't need Rejuvenation, Cocoon, or any other secondary healing abilities. DA and GDA is more than you need.. Invest in sufficient Negative Healing Amp and save your Destiny Points for something actually useful to your build...

Now let me address some of the bad advice/suggestions :
Lmao "bad advice"
Shard storm temp HP irrelevant for a PM, the second you get hit you should be at FULL HP in the next second.
dude says bad advice but obviously doesnt play High reapers where u dont heal back in a second and u obviously dont value those extra 700ish Hp that keep a doom from Smacking u bad cuz u rarely in that situation
That would involve going Tier 5 into SD, not to mention 30 wasted Destiny Points into the wrong tree for a PM. Much better splitting your points between MotE and DI, with maximum 1 point into any other tree to get the extra DC/SP/USP
Weird is such a Lit spell its almost Fine but I think its definetly valid to prefer Magus t5 cuz Negative iceberg
Ignore all of this. Doesn't apply to a PM.



Ruin, Greater Ruin is a waste of 2 feats IF your aim is to do damage - solo or not. a PM should depend on Negative Spell Power, Crit Chance, and Crit Multiplier combined with SLAS to do 99% of their damage.
dude ruin and gruin is one of the the main source of single target dmg of a Nuker if u run t5 Draconic it often hits for 150k in raids if not more depending on debuffs
Again heals should come from your Auras, not any other source.


You are on Sarlona?

message Kyrentheis and i'll help you with your PM build. I solo most content, and usually solo Epics on R6 and Legendarys on R4.
dont call other peoples advice bad if u boast yourself with Soloing r4 tell me what but r4 is a basic benchmark for any well build char if we honest its rather r6 (depends on build ofc Bow is a Pita to solo)
 

RobShow

Well-known member
Lazuli... you are right about one thing, my view is very narrow.. Building a proper PM doesn't leave much room for error. The dev's have not given the same love to PM as other casters - i.e. Master of the dead still broken after 6 years, certain mobs don't adhere to unholy avatar (i.e thrall of the fungus lord); and Epic past lives energy criticals not working with negative energy.

That being said, you can't paint a PM with the same broad strokes as you would any other caster build - even a standard wizard.
It sounds to me that you don't have much experience playing a pure PM. This is not your standard wizard build.

SD, PA, EA does nothing for a PM build.. it's a waste of time to say otherwise. And yes, it's BAD advise.. Maybe using the term ' garbage' was a little intense, hence why I prelimed it with ' no offence'.

Ruin and GRuin are a waste of time as i've already stated for a PM. Don't try and confuse people and say otherwise. Like I have already said, Those 2 feats can be better spent, and you don't need those to do massive amounts of damage. You just need Gloom Spear and Necrotic Blast.. and maybe Necrotic Ray and Render the Soul. With Gloom Spear, I one shot reapers on Legendary R4, and Epic R8... And i'm not even fully built.. I'm currently sitting at 70% Spell crit Chance and 85% Spell crit - which soon will be 110 % once I finish my mats for 15% legendary crit and 10% from 2 filigrees i'm missing..

About the temp hp... It's not necessary if you know how to properly build a PM.. 2500 HP is not hard to get on a PM, with 100+ PRR.. and if you let a monster get close enough to hit you, then you are doing something wrong... All mobs should die before they get anywhere even close to you. That's why having 1000 Neg spell power and 85% spell crit comes in handy.... I hit a mob with gloom spear and it gets hit for over 50k damage.
Someone who solo R8 with Wizard definitely has experience.
I've already used full negative damage and for those who want to do that I suggest LGS with bonus for critical damage. However, Pale Master's immunity is very buggy, things don't work as they should.
I'd rather focus on acid damage than negative damage as the primary damage source.

Ruin and G.Ruin + T5 Archmage + T5 DI drastically reduces boss battle time. It's my primary source of damage for bosses
 
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