Equating Combat Stats: AKA: Why exactly doesn't caster scale as strongly as Physical builds?
- Thread starter Underflow
- Start date
woq
Well-known member
I hated the circles where you had to grind that epic destiny sphere stuff. It was awful and the current form is a lot better.
Underflow
Well-known member
The funniest thing about this entire thread, is that there's a reason I was comparing everything to Melee.
I am fudging the numbers in a way to make Magic seem a strong as it can be, and Physical as weak as it can be. Ranged doubleshot being utterly insane is one thing, SWF Kukri blendermode is another, both scale way, way faster than 2hf.
Because that's what it takes for the two to be comparable at cap as it currently stands.
The average caster is never, ever going to keep up to the average melee, assuming that both are geared to the same quality/tier of equipment, past lives and investment.
At the very bottom of the scale, the casters can't land spells, run out of spell points and are utterly worthless, meanwhile melees die a bunch and have issues hitting things below a 10, but sure, at least they're able to contribute against bosses.
At the very top of the scale, the casters burn all their 10+ second cooldowns to utterly obliterate a single group of mobs... and the melees pop a 6 second CD epic strike for about the same amount of damage and do the same thing immediately after, as their abilities have shorter cooldowns, less costs, and can be kept up for longer.
I am fudging the numbers in a way to make Magic seem a strong as it can be, and Physical as weak as it can be. Ranged doubleshot being utterly insane is one thing, SWF Kukri blendermode is another, both scale way, way faster than 2hf.
Because that's what it takes for the two to be comparable at cap as it currently stands.
The average caster is never, ever going to keep up to the average melee, assuming that both are geared to the same quality/tier of equipment, past lives and investment.
At the very bottom of the scale, the casters can't land spells, run out of spell points and are utterly worthless, meanwhile melees die a bunch and have issues hitting things below a 10, but sure, at least they're able to contribute against bosses.
At the very top of the scale, the casters burn all their 10+ second cooldowns to utterly obliterate a single group of mobs... and the melees pop a 6 second CD epic strike for about the same amount of damage and do the same thing immediately after, as their abilities have shorter cooldowns, less costs, and can be kept up for longer.
Because they choose to.
Showing draconic lightning dot in town on red named cannon:
Pretty boss pic, not using lightning motes or monk debuff strike, no time stop:
Sonjar (dripping with X) scaling with melee power by being carried along with ki bolt, and critting on lightly debuffed red named: It should be noted dripping with X on weapons scales with melee power (like other procs), while dripping with magma or earth attunment on non-weapons doesn't. So it depends on whether weapons or non-weapons provide the dot.
R10 Cut the Strings:
Pretty boss pic, not using lightning motes or monk debuff strike, no time stop:
Sonjar (dripping with X) scaling with melee power by being carried along with ki bolt, and critting on lightly debuffed red named: It should be noted dripping with X on weapons scales with melee power (like other procs), while dripping with magma or earth attunment on non-weapons doesn't. So it depends on whether weapons or non-weapons provide the dot.
R10 Cut the Strings:
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
Ki-bolt is an interesting build Tilo, but you can't with a straight face claim that "casters chose to be bad" by not using a monk ability. 80% of the power of that build comes from ki bolt with epic mantle procs, neither of which is from a caster class. You could get 80%+ of those numbers on monk 16/caster 4, maybe even monk 20.Because they choose to.
Showing draconic lightning dot in town on red named cannon:
Pretty boss pic, not using lightning motes or monk debuff strike, no time stop:
Sonjar (dripping with X) scaling with melee power by being carried along with ki bolt, and critting on lightly debuffed red named: It should be noted dripping with X on weapons scales with melee power (like other procs), while dripping with magma or earth attunment on non-weapons doesn't. So it depends on whether weapons or non-weapons provide the dot.
R10 Cut the Strings:
You might even get higher "spell" DPS via a monk/pala split and using both Ki Bolts and cycling the mantles (haven't tried if this works). At this point you might as well switch to Inq and not be a one trick pony though.
Necrodancer
Ancient beyond measure
Because they choose to.
Showing draconic lightning dot in town on red named cannon:
Pretty boss pic, not using lightning motes or monk debuff strike, no time stop:
Sonjar (dripping with X) scaling with melee power by being carried along with ki bolt, and critting on lightly debuffed red named: It should be noted dripping with X on weapons scales with melee power (like other procs), while dripping with magma or earth attunment on non-weapons doesn't. So it depends on whether weapons or non-weapons provide the dot.
R10 Cut the Strings:
You are the reason why we need a downvote reaction. We get it dude, you LOVE Ki Bolt, you'd like to take it to a romantic dinner and make sweet, sweet love and even have its baby.
That is not a caster any more than those abhorrent favored souls with 2 crossbows. Seriously, stop your Ki Bolt addiction, you are not even capable of telling it apart from a spell.
Lotoc
Well-known member
Caster dps is fine guys because Tilomere is exploiting an unintended effect of procs double dipping melee/ranged power with spellpower when a melee/ranged power scaling spell triggers a spellpower scaling effect.Because they choose to.
Showing draconic lightning dot in town on red named cannon:
Pretty boss pic, not using lightning motes or monk debuff strike, no time stop:
Sonjar (dripping with X) scaling with melee power by being carried along with ki bolt, and critting on lightly debuffed red named: It should be noted dripping with X on weapons scales with melee power (like other procs), while dripping with magma or earth attunment on non-weapons doesn't. So it depends on whether weapons or non-weapons provide the dot.
R10 Cut the Strings:
Genuinely how do you get away with repeatedly gloating about exploiting a bugged mechanic?
Underflow
Well-known member
I consider all forms of Ki Bolt/Ki Casting a variant of Melee, rather than a real caster.
Personally, I prefer Sacred Fist 14/Wild Mage 4/Monk 2 shenanigans over Sorcerer levels, but whatever floats your boat.
However, Ki Bolt and spells like it don't really fit into the issues with casters, as it has different scalings, alternative base damage, and again, is boosted by physical gear.
Actually, Tilo, have you tried Wild Mage instead of regular Sorcerer? The extra %Crit damage might actually do something.
Personally, I prefer Sacred Fist 14/Wild Mage 4/Monk 2 shenanigans over Sorcerer levels, but whatever floats your boat.
However, Ki Bolt and spells like it don't really fit into the issues with casters, as it has different scalings, alternative base damage, and again, is boosted by physical gear.
Actually, Tilo, have you tried Wild Mage instead of regular Sorcerer? The extra %Crit damage might actually do something.
Because they choose to.
Showing draconic lightning dot in town on red named cannon:
Pretty boss pic, not using lightning motes or monk debuff strike, no time stop:
Sonjar (dripping with X) scaling with melee power by being carried along with ki bolt, and critting on lightly debuffed red named: It should be noted dripping with X on weapons scales with melee power (like other procs), while dripping with magma or earth attunment on non-weapons doesn't. So it depends on whether weapons or non-weapons provide the dot.
R10 Cut the Strings:
What are you casting during the cooldowns ?
How much do they do?
What damage per minute do you do ?
Do you run out of Ki in long fights ?
Roper
Lifetime Gamer
Why? I see you've said nothing beyond your "Good thread" post
Melee and Caster are TWO DIFFERENT CLASSES. :cough: with TWO DIFFERENT SKILL SETS. In theory, apparently.
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Because they choose to.
Showing draconic lightning dot in town on red named cannon:
Pretty boss pic, not using lightning motes or monk debuff strike, no time stop:
Sonjar (dripping with X) scaling with melee power by being carried along with ki bolt, and critting on lightly debuffed red named: It should be noted dripping with X on weapons scales with melee power (like other procs), while dripping with magma or earth attunment on non-weapons doesn't. So it depends on whether weapons or non-weapons provide the dot.
R10 Cut the Strings:
This is a thread about casters, not monks.
Show us an actual spell doing that kind of dps instead of non WAI ki bolt.
Thau of Blackmoore
Well-known member
Epic Levels and Legendary Levels need to add more MCL increases.
or revamp the master of xxx feats to a class based MCL increase
or revamp the master of xxx feats to a class based MCL increase
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
This is a good point. Casters only get half caster level progression beyond 20. This is an obvious scaling problem that is also easy to fix.
I don't think any of the martial class DPS parameters get a similar halving in epics. They mostly scale with weapon damage, which if anything ramps up rather than slows down. So this is a big flaw that will only get worse the more levels they add.
Another option would be to add increasing amounts of CL/MCL to caster weapons in epics so casters also get similarly weapon dependent as melee, but that will require changing a lot of existing items as well or they will become irrelevant.
I guess melee double strike cap might be an issue at some point as well (not ranged though), but it's not much of a problem yet.
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Whatever is fitting. DCs are high enough that any spell lands against a low save.
A lot since it is a dot and I'm only showing upfront part.
A ton.
No, Trailblazer + water + henshin is enough regen to go forever, plus you can always whack something with a stick.
I never made that claim. I answered why casters fall behind in epics. Bad is a value claim. Assuming players are choosing optimally for their own values how to build their casters, they aren't building them bad, so I don't understand why you would imply that of them or yourself.
Feel free to count the forum or in game builds choosing to build for caster dps vs. DCs or Tank. Feel free to report the % in either source with the prominence of added caster dps abilities like arcane pulse, runearms with macrotechnic, call lightning storm SLA + draconic snapshot, or T5 draconic + dots.
17 wild mage sorc DC caster with working instant kills multiclassed for some additional SLAs isn't a caster? Is not multiclassing wild mage a supported design of the tree? And how are you the arbiter of exploits, not SSG? Why is OP using a heroic burst damage spell given to some bards at level ~16 as a support class as the definition of why caster dps falls off and not the standard rotation or abilities that actually ... do damage per second?
What is interesting about pictures is how as a story they read the respondent. Thank you for the conversation.
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Necrodancer
Ancient beyond measure
Sure thing. You've been mighty quick posting a screenshot bragging about the ki bolt you have already brought up multiple times in other threads but you become slow and cryptic when called out and asked for actual info.
You didn't answered about what spell you are using nor the actual damage, just a shallow "trust me bro". Everyone's complaining about how the damage from casters is pathetic, well then, give us your actual numbers. You seem to know how to post screenshots.
Again, both here and in the past you had no problem posting large numbers, show your mad skillz instead of using casters levels to let Ki Bolt piggy back on critical chance and critical damage.
PS
Some people (I'm not one of them) consider Yegora and Experiment Y to be somewhat decent tests for dps? Care to entertain us without Ki Bolt? If you're capable that is, not trying to god you into walking the walk, so to speak.
danzig138
Well-known member
Perhaps those of you who want the game to be challenging should actually do stuff to make it more challenging for you. Instead of complaining here, turn off all your freaking Reaper Points, Enhancements, Stances and Destinies, strip down to gear you can buy in Harbor shops and go forth and prove just has genuinely bad a$$ you are. If you're not willing to put in some work to make it more the challenge you claim you want, then you don't want that challenge.
danzig138
Well-known member
Yes, you are consistently disingenuous and consistently misrepresent what other people are saying.