Fix - Tumbling as movement speed increase

[kriegzilla]

Currently there is an exploit in the game that allows characters to tumble almost as fast as a fully speed boosted monk. This is clearly an exploit of the tumble mechanic. While I know this is a fantasy game, this is clearly not WAI and should be resolved. I can‘t post the mechanics on how to do it becaue that would be a violation of the terms of service, iirc.

 

[seph1roth5]

Well looks like 3 people think it's a huge problem, many more think it's fun, and no one else cares. So of course it's going to be hammered down. Horses in taverns all over again.

 

[Ooblagato]

I personally think it's a great addition as it makes it resolves the issue of slower classes feeling unplayable in terms of movement speed.

If there must be a nerf to it, I think the best way to handle it would be to add a cooldown on tumble. If you could only tumble once every 1~2 seconds it wouldn't make that big of a difference in movement speed and would still retain the coolness of tumble feeling more agile and skillful that the current experimental controls allow.

 

[rabidfox]

Just let us use horses in quests, no one will care about tumbling any more.

 

[Zvdegor]

I personally think it's a great addition as it makes it resolves the issue of slower classes feeling unplayable in terms of movement speed.

If there must be a nerf to it, I think the best way to handle it would be to add a cooldown on tumble. If you could only tumble once every 1~2 seconds it wouldn't make that big of a difference in movement speed and would still retain the coolness of tumble feeling more agile and skillful that the current experimental controls allow.

Cooldown isnt good. If you have to backflip 2x out of a vengy circle.
I agree on that for slower classes (mine build has 129% move speed) it is very useful.
IMHO this way as it is now I feel like I have a skill I can use it!!! And it feels good!
I would allow Tumbling only in fighting (so when selfheal is reduced in reaper. When no restriction on selfheals tumbling is not allowed)
Of course when there is a Dungeon Allert, tumbling is disabled.
This way everyone could enjoy the full tumbling experience but out of fight or during DA it is disabled.

 

[droid327]

Nerfing tumble and giving a general speed boost isn't enough, because any speed fast enough to replace tumble when you use it would be too fast for general movement when you don't

There needs to be two speeds - normal for when you're in combat and need better control, "turbo" for when you're covering ground between encounters and interactions.

You need to be able to move seamlessly between the two, without restrictions like cooldown or charges, which is why sprint boost and leap are also imperfect solutions. That's what tumble gets right...the only complaints are the cosmetic aesthetics, and having to spam the button rather than hold it down.

Those are easily addressed without nuking the whole mechanic from orbit, even though that's likely what's going to occur...

 

[AirbornChild]

People, it seems you are missing smth in your minds. There is no moving speed isue in the game. My rogue MS is 139 %. My barb MS is 149 %. My monk is even faster. But these are class features.

Instead of making charges, should just disable this way of moving. By innate you could not use tumble without delay between two. Just patch the code.

But no. I can no longer flip forward and backward thankfully to mindless players. All because of you. You are guilty.

And really. Who needs tumbling in dungeons, if you can just run or use Sprint Boost. Just tell me, please, why did you all use this?

Didn;t you have Sprint Boost? You have no need in running if you are fighting/casting. I will never get what was in your minds.
I
DO NOT
KNOW
WHY
YOU EXPLOITED
THIS FUNNY SKILL
!!!

 

[Arsont]

People, it seems you are missing smth in your minds. There is no moving speed isue in the game. My rogue MS is 139 %. My barb MS is 149 %. My monk is even faster. But these are class features.

Instead of making charges, should just disable this way of moving. By innate you could not use tumble without delay between two. Just patch the code.

But no. I can no longer flip forward and backward thankfully to mindless players. All because of you. You are guilty.

And really. Who needs tumbling in dungeons, if you can just run or use Sprint Boost. Just tell me, please, why did you all use this?

Didn;t you have Sprint Boost? You have no need in running if you are fighting/casting. I will never get what was in your minds.
I
DO NOT
KNOW
WHY
YOU EXPLOITED
THIS FUNNY SKILL
!!!

Those are rookie numbers!

I'm not sure what your point is here.

The movespeed issue in this game is that there's no difference (in quests, at least) between in and out of combat movespeed. When quests are designed with multiple large packs of mobs, and a lot of players are trying to run quests as fast as possible to get from one life to the next (or to get to cap and sit there), then all quests just become a process of running as fast as you can, kill the required mobs, run, kill, run, end. The faster you run the faster all of that goes.

The problem with the older experimental version of tumble was that it worked on top of other movespeed boosts in a way that wasn't intended.

Tumble itself as a skill wasn't terribly useful before they changed it. It still reduces fall damage (Though I've seen mixed results on that). Sure, you could use it to move, but it didn't actually do anything that you simply walking wouldn't do. At least now if has an actual defensive benefit. Granted, you can't roll in circles like you used to; but that was never an actual gameplay mechanic, just people needing to stim.

I can see an argument being made to remove/quickly refresh the charges in public areas (as per FVS wings), but I rather like the work the devs have done to Tumble. The new Tumble UI option is nice for people that were bothered by the pips (I liked them), and having actual, usable in-combat benefits to tumbling is a step up from...nothing.

 

[droid327]

The movespeed issue in this game is that there's no difference (in quests, at least) between in and out of combat movespeed.

The problem with the older experimental version of tumble was that it worked on top of other movespeed boosts in a way that wasn't intended.

You seem to contradict yourself here. I agree with the first part - the issue is that OOC move speed is too slow, for how much OOC movement there is in many quests, and how it serves no purpose except as a naked time sink.

The "good" version of Tumble was good because it stacked with everything and allowed you very good run speed to accelerate you between encounters. It wasnt intended, but it was an unintentional improvement

 

[Arsont]

You seem to contradict yourself here. I agree with the first part - the issue is that OOC move speed is too slow, for how much OOC movement there is in many quests, and how it serves no purpose except as a naked time sink.

The "good" version of Tumble was good because it stacked with everything and allowed you very good run speed to accelerate you between encounters. It wasnt intended, but it was an unintentional improvement

I see what you mean. To clarify, when I said "the problem with the older version...", I was guessing at what the devs would pinpoint as the problem. In the first paragraph, I was speaking as a player.

The root issue is that the way players view movespeed and how the devs (apparently, based on quest design) view movespeed are at odds. We want to go faster, to maximize gains for time spent; they don't want us to go too fast, or it breaks the game and reduces profits (when taken to the extreme).

Since the "experimental" tumble was working in a way the devs didn't intend, it was problematic, even though it was beneficial to players that were using it in that way. While I like the additions to tumble, and think the changes were warranted, I still like to go fast(er). Which is why I'm addicted to Haste pots, almost always have Sprint Boost, and work in wings for any build I can that doesn’t need to sit at cap.

My personal issue is with players that got used to an effect that was pretty obviously not WAI, then complained about it being fixed; it just seems entitled. Instead of trashing the devs for fixing an unintentional effect and adding actual gameplay benefits, I think those players would be better off petitioning for additional ways to increase movespeed, or at least OOC movespeed.

 

[droid327]

My personal issue is with players that got used to an effect that was pretty obviously not WAI, then complained about it being fixed; it just seems entitled. Instead of trashing the devs for fixing an unintentional effect and adding actual gameplay benefits, I think those players would be better off petitioning for additional ways to increase movespeed, or at least OOC movespeed.

My argument here, and its the same one that I made to the devs, is that just because something is unintentional doesnt mean its necessarily bad or wrong or needs to be fixed. They have to argue why its actually negative, not simply that it wasnt what they meant to do.

And they never did that for Tumble, they never justified why it was bad for the game itself to have that movespeed.

 

[J1NG]

My argument here, and its the same one that I made to the devs, is that just because something is unintentional doesnt mean its necessarily bad or wrong or needs to be fixed. They have to argue why its actually negative, not simply that it wasnt what they meant to do.

And they never did that for Tumble, they never justified why it was bad for the game itself to have that movespeed.

I might be able to shed some light here.

With the way it was (unlimited Tumble), with the new experimental Tumble as well, it was possible to ignore Red Dungeon Alert slow downs (as it was a heavy Tumble skill modifier debuff not a Tumble stop debuff provided at Orange Dungeon Alert, so you can still Tumble so long as you had a positive modifier after that debuff). I never got to test Purple, but I'm assuming nothing was changed and thus it would have been the same.

With the charge system, this would not be possible (to ignore Dungeon Alert) and forces players who may have with the old system zerged past everything (with old Unlimited Tumble) and then dealt with them (enemies) near the end (if enemies didn't rebound already), to need to tackle with enemies after a very short time (two to six Tumbles) instead of at the end before the boss to speed the run up (and causing server panic as lag from attacking and pathing enemies overload that instance of the server).

That server lag, would be all the justification they need. As that impacts on everyone.

I'm sure that's not the only reason. But this is already a big one.

J1NG

 

[droid327]

I might be able to shed some light here.

With the way it was (unlimited Tumble), with the new experimental Tumble as well, it was possible to ignore Red Dungeon Alert slow downs (as it was a heavy Tumble skill modifier debuff not a Tumble stop debuff provided at Orange Dungeon Alert, so you can still Tumble so long as you had a positive modifier after that debuff). I never got to test Purple, but I'm assuming nothing was changed and thus it would have been the same.

With the charge system, this would not be possible (to ignore Dungeon Alert) and forces players who may have with the old system zerged past everything (with old Unlimited Tumble) and then dealt with them (enemies) near the end (if enemies didn't rebound already), to need to tackle with enemies after a very short time (two to six Tumbles) instead of at the end before the boss to speed the run up (and causing server panic as lag from attacking and pathing enemies overload that instance of the server).

That server lag, would be all the justification they need. As that impacts on everyone.

I'm sure that's not the only reason. But this is already a big one.

J1NG

Well naturally the response there is to make DA at a certain point just disable Tumbling. Many people on Lama pointed out that would actually serve to discourage zerging even more, because you could have faster clears by clearing mobs and thus keeping your Tumble active.

There were some specific edge-case issues you could imagine with Tumble Unlimited, but they never demonstrated anything to justify nuking the whole system entirely

 

[J1NG]

Well naturally the response there is to make DA at a certain point just disable Tumbling. Many people on Lama pointed out that would actually serve to discourage zerging even more, because you could have faster clears by clearing mobs and thus keeping your Tumble active.

There were some specific edge-case issues you could imagine with Tumble Unlimited, but they never demonstrated anything to justify nuking the whole system entirely

If the possibility exists, and it's such a heavy impacting issue, it gets nuked. Everywhere does that, it's not exclusive to SSG.

As for changing Dungeon Alert, the Devs aren't going to change that when the root issue is with the old Tumble and the experimental Tumble as well. It's like everyone used to keep telling the Devs to "fix" Power Surge in Kensai to work with the Prowess Filigree 5 set, but the issue there was that the old Power Surge was not working right whilst the other system was. Same here; Dungeon Alert works as they (SSG) want it to (thus far), but the old Tumble does not. Guess which one will get altered?

J1NG

 

[droid327]

Same here; Dungeon Alert works as they (SSG) want it to (thus far), but the old Tumble does not. Guess which one will get altered?

Like I said elsewhere, that just shows it's unintentional, not that it's bad

Also I'd argue if DA doesn't prevent all kinds of quick movement then it's not actually WAI

 

[J1NG]

Like I said elsewhere, that just shows it's unintentional, not that it's bad

Also I'd argue if DA doesn't prevent all kinds of quick movement then it's not actually WAI

I won't disagree that being unintentional doesn't mean it's (edit)automatically(/edit) bad. However, you cannot deny that it can easily introduce server performance issues and that type of bad you can not deny. I can lag out Meridia players if I go red alert just a part of the Vale and then using some multi-proc abilities from melee, cause enough lag from it all that players inside Merdia can stutter temporarily.

With regards to Dungeon Alert, if you want to say it doesn't prevent all kinds of quick movement, then you can just move to the next thing that's causing it to not be working like you think it should (which is blocking related). And this will just keep on going. As of such, even if there is a chance to change that instead, given it's a bottomless pit of changes or adjustments needed to be changed. The choice will always be changing the one that's faulty and upon fixing can solve the issue at hand. And once again, that'll be Tumble.

J1NG

 

[Toede]

My argument here, and its the same one that I made to the devs, is that just because something is unintentional doesnt mean its necessarily bad or wrong or needs to be fixed. They have to argue why its actually negative, not simply that it wasnt what they meant to do.

And they never did that for Tumble, they never justified why it was bad for the game itself to have that movespeed.

Actually, they don't have to do anything. It is their game. They can change it any way they see fit and they don't need your permission.