For those who own LGS Ooze and Aspect of Tar...

[Bjond]

Intercept tank's Knights Challenge (shield throw) preventing ranged aggro management. This is everywhere, but especially annoying in Skellies when trying to hold aggro on the dino and the ghost flame.

Hmm. This one I'm nearly certain does not happen. I raid-tank twice a week and NOTHING has blocked or intercepted KC or Boom. I can throw through players and brides to yank Strahd away from the bride tank or pull uh, the throne boss in KT (forgot it's name) out of a herd of shadows. I have had heal potions (alchemist) intercepted by jumping DPS (uh, dude -- that was for the tank!), but KC is a single-target "enemy only" action. I've never seen a creature block it.

What does happen is that KC falls short. It's really VERY close range. If you throw it and you're too far, the animation will happen (even the little flash when it "strikes" air), but it won't hit the target. It's range feels about like "cone x1.5", but I've not tested it's range explicitly. I suspect that's what is happening with your KC. It's particularly common when kiting things that might move away from you.

Also, you need to follow KC/Boom with a real intimidate pretty much immediately. KC+Kite is 100% guaranteed to loose agro.

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BTW, I'll try and test it in PvP. My bard-bot will cheerfully stand there as KC target. I can surround her with friendly (to me) summons and then hit her with KC. Hmm. I'd expect at least KC's damage to work in PvP even if my bard doesn't get mad at me for 8s.

 

[Bowserkoopa]

Hmm. This one I'm nearly certain does not happen. I raid-tank twice a week and NOTHING has blocked or intercepted KC or Boom. I can throw through players and brides to yank Strahd away from the bride tank or pull uh, the throne boss in KT (forgot it's name) out of a herd of shadows. I have had heal potions (alchemist) intercepted by jumping DPS (uh, dude -- that was for the tank!), but KC is a single-target "enemy only" action. I've never seen a creature block it.

What does happen is that KC falls short. It's really VERY close range. If you throw it and you're too far, the animation will happen (even the little flash when it "strikes" air), but it won't hit the target. It's range feels about like "cone x1.5", but I've not tested it's range explicitly. I suspect that's what is happening with your KC. It's particularly common when kiting things that might move away from you.

Also, you need to follow KC/Boom with a real intimidate pretty much immediately. KC+Kite is 100% guaranteed to loose agro.

---

BTW, I'll try and test it in PvP. My bard-bot will cheerfully stand there as KC target. I can surround her with friendly (to me) summons and then hit her with KC. Hmm. I'd expect at least KC's damage to work in PvP even if my bard doesn't get mad at me for 8s.

At least in my experience throw the boom actually has a shorter range than knights challenge. Both should be checked to make sure the "allowed to use" and "effective range" are accurate. Granted I understand if you throw it and the mob moves out of range it fizzling.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

At least in my experience throw the boom actually has a shorter range than knights challenge. Both should be checked to make sure the "allowed to use" and "effective range" are accurate. Granted I understand if you throw it and the mob moves out of range it fizzling.

For questing it's pretty nice to be able to throw out-of-range at mobs that are running at you (that will be in range when it gets there) but yeah, especially for raiding it can get awkward.

 

[HighLordPudding]

thank you, this post has convinced me to swap out my aspect of Tar for the Shadow horn

 

[Eunostos]

This thread has also helped me understand the practical (and unfair on others) limitations of my summoner in those contexts so i won't be a jerk about clicky summons/oozes/etc later. TY~

 

[RangerOne]

Aw now I want my bow to spit tar.

 

[Rusty_helmet]

Also they do terrible things to mob AI in raids etc to the point I actively discourage people from using them in my raids.

Yes I wish people would put the ooze weapons away in raids.

 

[Endo]

I'll say the dino summons is fun to use to hold ghost flames aggro

 

[Cildar]

Those oozes are awesome for ranged characters though when soloing and very expensive to swap out. (from the dino augment).

 

[karasendrieth]

Having run summons for.....a long time. Longer than most people have played i can attest, that 50% of those reasons are....complete bull. Most of those raid issues either are so rare or so not an issue that you really cant exclude a good summoner adding tens of thousands of damage per second because of them. Especially on the final boss of 90% if raids where it is literally a beat down of a high hp target, with maybe some gimmicks. Puzzle issues can be annoying, so you may want to put it away then, however most puzzles are not done with trash around and so if the summoner simply stands off to the side, there is no issue. In my experience most problems in raids that have to do with summons are either caused by an inexperienced (or frankly stupid) summoner, or are made up by people because they honestly just dont like summons. The second is very honestly an issue in ddo. I've had people whine when my "misadventure" (summon) kill count is higher than theirs. Its actually very common for people to bash, rag on and otherwise try and get others to not use summons just because they personally have a bias against summons. Use your tar if you want. Its great for keeping agro off players, can do amazing damage if your built for it and is generally a great help. Sure there are areas, and some specific raids that your not going to want to use it in but those are honestly the minority. Shroud for example really doesn't have anywhere you cant be using tar. It MIGHT mess up ONE puzzle. The one your in when you spawn into the area. Most people can fix one puzzle pretty quick and there are no mobs. Most PLAYERS will mess up one puzzle lol, so having summons do it isnt a big deal. Certainly worth the massive amount of damage increase they bring to fights in that raid. I could go through raid by raid but I dont need to. You probably all know the areas summons might actually be a real liability and the areas that people are honestly just being whiny jerks. In conclusion, again run tar, its rarely a bad choice if your specced for it and even if your not, its another target. If it takes ago from the tank (unlikely) so what? Its in melee range just like him, its got the hp to survive a few hits, after which the tank is STILL on the agro list, he didnt get wiped off lol.

 

[Gimp-1]

Having run summons for.....a long time. Longer than most people have played i can attest, that 50% of those reasons are....complete bull. Most of those raid issues either are so rare or so not an issue that you really cant exclude a good summoner adding tens of thousands of damage per second because of them. Especially on the final boss of 90% if raids where it is literally a beat down of a high hp target, with maybe some gimmicks. Puzzle issues can be annoying, so you may want to put it away then, however most puzzles are not done with trash around and so if the summoner simply stands off to the side, there is no issue. In my experience most problems in raids that have to do with summons are either caused by an inexperienced (or frankly stupid) summoner, or are made up by people because they honestly just dont like summons. The second is very honestly an issue in ddo. I've had people whine when my "misadventure" (summon) kill count is higher than theirs. Its actually very common for people to bash, rag on and otherwise try and get others to not use summons just because they personally have a bias against summons. Use your tar if you want. Its great for keeping agro off players, can do amazing damage if your built for it and is generally a great help. Sure there are areas, and some specific raids that your not going to want to use it in but those are honestly the minority. Shroud for example really doesn't have anywhere you cant be using tar. It MIGHT mess up ONE puzzle. The one your in when you spawn into the area. Most people can fix one puzzle pretty quick and there are no mobs. Most PLAYERS will mess up one puzzle lol, so having summons do it isnt a big deal. Certainly worth the massive amount of damage increase they bring to fights in that raid. I could go through raid by raid but I dont need to. You probably all know the areas summons might actually be a real liability and the areas that people are honestly just being whiny jerks. In conclusion, again run tar, its rarely a bad choice if your specced for it and even if your not, its another target. If it takes ago from the tank (unlikely) so what? Its in melee range just like him, its got the hp to survive a few hits, after which the tank is STILL on the agro list, he didnt get wiped off lol.

When runnig in your group or your raid...do as you wish....when running in others...simply dont.

Your comment about taking agro from the tank shows how little you understand high difficulty questing.

 

[RobShow]

Having run summons for.....a long time. Longer than most people have played i can attest, that 50% of those reasons are....complete bull. Most of those raid issues either are so rare or so not an issue that you really cant exclude a good summoner adding tens of thousands of damage per second because of them. Especially on the final boss of 90% if raids where it is literally a beat down of a high hp target, with maybe some gimmicks. Puzzle issues can be annoying, so you may want to put it away then, however most puzzles are not done with trash around and so if the summoner simply stands off to the side, there is no issue. In my experience most problems in raids that have to do with summons are either caused by an inexperienced (or frankly stupid) summoner, or are made up by people because they honestly just dont like summons. The second is very honestly an issue in ddo. I've had people whine when my "misadventure" (summon) kill count is higher than theirs. Its actually very common for people to bash, rag on and otherwise try and get others to not use summons just because they personally have a bias against summons. Use your tar if you want. Its great for keeping agro off players, can do amazing damage if your built for it and is generally a great help. Sure there are areas, and some specific raids that your not going to want to use it in but those are honestly the minority. Shroud for example really doesn't have anywhere you cant be using tar. It MIGHT mess up ONE puzzle. The one your in when you spawn into the area. Most people can fix one puzzle pretty quick and there are no mobs. Most PLAYERS will mess up one puzzle lol, so having summons do it isnt a big deal. Certainly worth the massive amount of damage increase they bring to fights in that raid. I could go through raid by raid but I dont need to. You probably all know the areas summons might actually be a real liability and the areas that people are honestly just being whiny jerks. In conclusion, again run tar, its rarely a bad choice if your specced for it and even if your not, its another target. If it takes ago from the tank (unlikely) so what? Its in melee range just like him, its got the hp to survive a few hits, after which the tank is STILL on the agro list, he didnt get wiped off lol.

1. Summons miss most of their attacks.
2. The damage they cause is much lower than any other player, no matter the build or how good/bad the player is!
3. When they are hit, they die quickly, even with a build focused on summons. Except for Skellie, Werewolf and Dino, they are tanks.

So... the programmers have a special code for RAIDS, making the summons automatically take aggro.

I've done all the Wizard builds possible and for years I stopped at summons, self-challenge. When I play solo, I SUFFER, it takes minutes for my summons to hit the mobs and take aggro.

A lot of people just have gratuitous hate when complaining about summons.

 

[Bjond]

raid issues either are so rare or so not an issue that you really cant exclude a good summoner

Uh, actually yes, we can. We don't like excluding people and will often permit literally any build, but if your summons become obnoxious, we can and will exit raid, punt you, and replace with a bard bot.

This is a last resort for true trolls, though. First, we'll try to work with you to help you NOT be annoying; eg. auto-summons (oozes) can be dispelled and killed. You can halt your dps entirely to prevent more summons. You can punt and or root/passive your manual summons.

This is only for raids, though. I don't have any issues with quest summons.

Use your tar if you want. Its great for keeping agro off players

This is the biggest issue for raids. Agro flips do NOT kill the flipper. They kill a whole bunch of OTHER high DPS characters near the flipper.

The only tars that I've not seen or had an issue with are tars from the tank, but I've only been experimenting with that recently -- the sample size is still too small for me to make a call there.

IMHO, tar+ranged is absolutely bad, never to be done in any raid for any reason. Those seem to flip things a lot in a bad way. They also often crawl all over the PN console (block clicking buttons) and melee zulkis (forcing him to teleport).

worth the massive amount of damage increase they bring to fights in that raid. I could go through raid by raid but I

Eh, "massive" in that sentence only applies to the same degree that it does when calling DDO an "MMO".

Assuming there are no side issues, "tar ooze" is better than "shadowhorn" but only because "something" is better than "nothing".

If it takes ago from the tank (unlikely) so what? Its in melee range just like him, its got the hp to survive a few hits, after which the tank is STILL on the agro list, he didnt get wiped off lol.

The "what" is that flips do NOT hit the target. They swing AT the target, but hit whatever is in the way. Raid bosses cleave, too. One flip can slaughter half the raid.

Summons are not the biggest agro offender, it's newbie paladins and fighters in defender stance. Getting those to turn it off is insanely frustrating. Most summoners are more experienced players who are taking a stab at the last unsolved build -- at least we've never had problems with one when asked to not summon the way we have with newbie when asked to not use defender.

IMHO, the only caveat for summoners is "let the raid leader know in advance". You can let a quest leader know, too, but I can't imagine caring in a quest. The raids where I personally don't want summons at all: PN, Shroud, Baba, Hydra, Elite+ FOM (don't care in hard).

 

[RobShow]

They also often crawl all over the PN console (block clicking buttons) and melee zulkis (forcing him to teleport).

This is correct!