Friendly reminder to the devs...

[Soulcial]

Shadowdancer is still not the primary/optimal tree for rogues. It's trying to do too much, by being a caster hybrid tree, and as a result it's really not worth taking past tier 3/ core 4 on any class. It has an awful epic moment, the mantle is terrible. I cancelled my VIP sub literally because there was finally a long overdue epic destiny overhaul and it did not include any measurable improvement to shadowdancer (aside from fixing the epic strike, which is still not very good due to ICD.)
The epic strike being restricted by ICD severely restricts scalability due to finesse style attacks, IE ROGUES. There is a reason noone is playing rogue in end game content, and look no further because you've found that reason!
Anyway, maybe I'm just venting, maybe people want to chime in and get this train moving.

 

[Pano]

Don't know about the rogues, but Shadowdancer seems fine for many builds - I have used shadowdencer epic strike and tier 4 with my monk staff build. I have used even tier 5 with my wizard EK build.
I agree that it is not a main tree for most builds, but you can definitely find uses for it.
Also I doubt the format of epic destinies is that each class should get a corresponding best main destiny. Its the complete opposite - it is another layer you can give to your build - not an extension of a class. Hence it is understandable that optimal rogue (DPS) tree can be LD or FotW.

But I agree that the tier 5 could be more compelling.

 

[Soulcial]

Don't know about the rogues, but Shadowdancer seems fine for many builds - I have used shadowdencer epic strike and tier 4 with my monk staff build. I have used even tier 5 with my wizard EK build.
I agree that it is not a main tree for most builds, but you can definitely find uses for it.
Also I doubt the format of epic destinies is that each class should get a corresponding best main destiny. Its the complete opposite - it is another layer you can give to your build - not an extension of a class. Hence it is understandable that optimal rogue (DPS) tree can be LD or FotW.

But I agree that the tier 5 could be more compelling.

the mantle is bad too. and i'm talking more for endgame, ie r10/reaper raids, when you really want to min max. it just doesn't scale well, like many other trees. i do go into t4 on my qstaff build as well, but it's definitely more for flavor/to get to c4

also, part of my point is that rogues are still taking fotw/dreadnaught over shadowdancer t5. there are plenty of EDs that are built for certain classes/playstyles but still help others. divine crusader just as an example.

 

[Konsumer]

Shadowdancer is still not the primary/optimal tree for rogues. It's trying to do too much, by being a caster hybrid tree, and as a result it's really not worth taking past tier 3/ core 4 on any class. It has an awful epic moment, the mantle is terrible. I cancelled my VIP sub literally because there was finally a long overdue epic destiny overhaul and it did not include any measurable improvement to shadowdancer (aside from fixing the epic strike, which is still not very good due to ICD.)
The epic strike being restricted by ICD severely restricts scalability due to finesse style attacks, IE ROGUES. There is a reason noone is playing rogue in end game content, and look no further because you've found that reason!
Anyway, maybe I'm just venting, maybe people want to chime in and get this train moving.

I spent 12 of my 17 years here playing a rogue as my main. Mostly as an assassin build. I would love a reason to go back to that. Unfortunately IMO there's nothing a rogue can do that other classes don't do better. Again, only IMO, everything that made them unique was passed around to multiple classes. Even back in the day, assassins were actively blocked by the devs from using assassinate in epics. It took a long while before they allowed it. There was a heyday for rogues after that. Then bards got assassinate. Then nearly everybody else. Then they took away consume and manipulate from the rogue EDs. Created this new tree for rogues that was better for casters. Left them behind over and over. For instance, now, all the classes have some way (albeit with some requirements) to self heal. Except one. Rogues are still using heal scrolls that were never updated. Might as well be a CSW pot in upper heroics. It sucks when you have to take your weapon out of your hand during a fight, and cast a scroll heal that covers a third or less of the damage you just took. Then you're running in circles waiting for the scroll timer to end.
You can't even use assassinate till level 11, but there's tons of assassinate bonuses on gear 1-10.

They haven't gotten any archetypes while some classes have several. Dark rangers took their whole steez and gave it to a dog.
I've never played a shardakai but I hear and see that the chain attacks are great. But again... all you need is a rogue splash for that.
I suspect that this classic core D&D class here in DDO has always been misunderstood and pigeonholed into 3 types. Dex and int based using staffs, bows, and daggers. And they've never really known how to do it any differently.

How many ways to play a rogue?
You could have a strength based thug/bully specialized in clubs.
An int based assassin.
A charisma based illusionist charlatan.
A dex based thief/pickpocket/saboteur.
A con/str based intimidating mugger.
A stealth based scout able to pilfer treasure outside the groups share.
A master of trickery and treachery that uses bluff, diplo, feints, and fencing in amazing new ways.

Consider the term "go rogue."
": to begin to behave in an independent or uncontrolled way that is not authorized, normal, or expected."
That's what a rogue is and should do. Break rules.

 

[Terranigma]

Shadowdancer is very similar to Rogue in the aspect that you generally want to splash Shadowdancer for the things it provides early on for most characters, but never take it all the way to cap.

 

[Pano]

the mantle is bad too. and i'm talking more for endgame, ie r10/reaper raids, when you really want to min max. it just doesn't scale well, like many other trees. i do go into t4 on my qstaff build as well, but it's definitely more for flavor/to get to c4

I agree that the mantle is bad. But we have apparently 2 problems here. 1) shadowdancer is underwhelming 2) rogue is underwhelming ?
And you would obviously want to combine those 2.

I dont play rogue much, but i see pure rogues on orein every now and then. For the shadowdencer I would say it as good secondary tree but bad primary tree (similar to war priest). Epic Strikes are good and the debuffs are useful. Tier 5 and mantle are bad - but I dont know if we should directly link this issue to rogue problem.

 

[Hobgoblin]

rogue is not underwhelming

i dont know what the op is talking about.

rogue is one of the most fun and damaging classes i have played.... and yes im counting r10s in that

 

[droid327]

Shadowdancer is not and was never meant to be the "Rogue destiny". Destinies arent linked to classes, but playstyles.

Shadowdancer is for "sneak/assassinate/IK casting" gameplay. If that's what your Rogue does, then that's the destiny you'll be in. If you want TWF melee DPS, then other trees are meant for that.

There's problems you can definitely raise about SD and how its currently implemented, but "its not Roguey enough" is not going to get much traction

 

[Blunt Hackett]

Shadowdancer is not and was never meant to be the "Rogue destiny". Destinies arent linked to classes, but playstyles.

Yes, they're not intended to be for a specific class, but destinies very obviously are modeled after class roles so it's the other way around but still relevant feedback. Ideally, each destiny should have desirable skills at all tiers relevant to the class they're modeled after.

 

[pevergreen]

rogue is not underwhelming

i dont know what the op is talking about.

rogue is one of the most fun and damaging classes i have played.... and yes im counting r10s in that

Soul isnt saying rogues are bad, he is saying shadowdancer is bad.
Rogues are fine in terms of damage output

With some newer gear and changes, they probably arent the single highest 2wf melee anymore, but they're good!

 

[Jummby]

Shadowdancer is still not the primary/optimal tree for rogues. It's trying to do too much, by being a caster hybrid tree, and as a result it's really not worth taking past tier 3/ core 4 on any class. It has an awful epic moment, the mantle is terrible. I cancelled my VIP sub literally because there was finally a long overdue epic destiny overhaul and it did not include any measurable improvement to shadowdancer (aside from fixing the epic strike, which is still not very good due to ICD.)
The epic strike being restricted by ICD severely restricts scalability due to finesse style attacks, IE ROGUES. There is a reason noone is playing rogue in end game content, and look no further because you've found that reason!
Anyway, maybe I'm just venting, maybe people want to chime in and get this train moving.

Shadowdancer is still not the primary/optimal tree for rogues.

Rogues can be built many different ways. One of the great things about DDO is character customization. Depending on how you built you rogue, dictates what destinys you should be using.

I cancelled my VIP sub literally because there was finally a long overdue epic destiny overhaul and it did not include any measurable improvement to shadowdancer

Stating you cancelled VIP is like the people that rant about leaving DDO because they want attention.

The epic strike being restricted by ICD severely restricts scalability due to finesse style attacks, IE ROGUES. There is a reason noone is playing rogue in end game content

People still play rogues at end game. If you know how to build one, they have a lot of DPS.

maybe I'm just venting

This statement I agree with, since the tree is fine and should be left as is.

 

[Sarlona Raiding]

As far as assassin, it's really strong with either daggers or kukris combining Assassin and Vistani Knife Fighter. Single-Target DPS is very strong - perhaps not the best in the game anymore, but by no means bad. The HP boost for assassins was significant as they are no longer glass cannon builds. Improved Uncanny Dodge doesn't suck either.

The problem with Shadowdancer is that it used to do 2 key things: (1) Provide outstanding solo play support and (2) provide a unique debuff that made it very valuable to have at least one player with shadowdancer as their main tree in raids.

Now it's a hybrid tree and is arguably the top splash tree for melees with 14 points giving you 6 sneak die, ddoor, 3 max dodge for most builds, -30% threat, protection from force missles and 15% fort bypass. It's a very front-loaded tree, but the top tiers are underwhelming. The original proposed tree was much better, but the dev nerfed it while still on Lamannia for reasons unknown - it didn't seem too powerful to me.

 

[Refutor]

is the mantle that bad? stacking 25% concealment and 25% incorporeality and 15% helpdless damage is completely usable...i use it on my 16 dragonlord/3 bard/1 warlock and i'm happy with it.

 

[Sarlona Raiding]

is the mantle that bad? stacking 25% concealment and 25% incorporeality and 15% helpdless damage is completely usable...i use it on my 16 dragonlord/3 bard/1 warlock and i'm happy with it.

Incorporeality and concealment are both reduced by skull so I tend to completely discount those benefits.

 

[Refutor]

yes but they stack with displacement and whatever other sources. 75% concealment is still pretty decent and the concealment penalty caps at 30% which still leaves 45% concealment in R10 which is nontrivial

https://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper_difficulty

• Incorporeality and Concealment (Blur/Displacement/...) have reduced effect. Reaper Difficulty introduces a flat 5% Concealment bypass, with a further 5% Concealment and Incorporeal bypass per Skull difficulty. This is performed through providing all targets belonging to the enemy faction with a bonus during the roll performed for bypassing Concealment or Incorporeal on protected targets. Beginning with combined total of 10% Concealment and 5% Incorporeal bypass at Reaper 1. Note: Based on the thread where this information originated, this bypass is capped at 30% Concealment bypass and 35% Incorporeality bypass.

 

[Svirfneblin]

Shadow dancer truly does need some help the upper tiers are underwhelming.

It also could use some more integration with the ninja spy who are also sneak and poison and Insta kill based.

 

[Sarlona Raiding]

yes but they stack with displacement and whatever other sources. 75% concealment is still pretty decent and the concealment penalty caps at 30% which still leaves 45% concealment in R10 which is nontrivial

https://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper_difficulty

• Incorporeality and Concealment (Blur/Displacement/...) have reduced effect. Reaper Difficulty introduces a flat 5% Concealment bypass, with a further 5% Concealment and Incorporeal bypass per Skull difficulty. This is performed through providing all targets belonging to the enemy faction with a bonus during the roll performed for bypassing Concealment or Incorporeal on protected targets. Beginning with combined total of 10% Concealment and 5% Incorporeal bypass at Reaper 1. Note: Based on the thread where this information originated, this bypass is capped at 30% Concealment bypass and 35% Incorporeality bypass.

I am glad you like it and are getting benefit from it. I have no doubt you can find a build that works well with the mantle, but I don't see myself ever using it. Most people are choosing other mantles.

The problem with concealment in general is that so many enemies have true seeing. Incorporeal seems trivial outside the epic moment unless I am missing some other source besides the epic moment you are using to get the extra 50%.

At least for myself I prefer defenses that work more reliably and don't depend on a clicky or an enemy not having true seeing.

 

[JustHavingFunBro]

Concealment does not function against bosses/champs. Bosses can't be made helpless. So, the mantle is only useful against trash.
What else are you taking from this tree?
Increasing your force damage and spell DC? Increasing your hide and move silently? Its a flavor tree that is not well thought out.

 

[Lotoc]

shadowdancer is just unfortunate
- it wants to be the primary force caster ED but SSG seem to intentionally leave force casting undertuned (actually funny that the epic strike lowers mrr/prr but force doesn't benefit from the reduction), support for epic force spells (arcane pulse and ruin) is instead in primarily elemental trees, does nothing to support spirit blades as a counterpart.
- it wants to be the sneak attack ED but offers like 80%+ of the power for said builds before 20 points
- the dark imbuement and paranoia effects portray themselves as for high attack rate builds but have an ICD of 1 second to mitigate magic missile spam which ultimately kills said effects for the exact builds that would love to use it like twf assassin rogues, the ICD basically contradicts the ideal use case of sneak dice which is high attack rate so it leaves the epic strikes feeling thematically disjointed from what they actually scale with.
-ended up a gish tree without the main gish scaler (imbue dice)
-aside from weird nothing unique about the t5 is geared for offense but rather is defensive and reactive when thematically shadowdancer feels like someone who should be proactive and on the offensive.

-the mantle is basically 90% defensive and is built so much around being a sneaky slippery shadow that it forgets that a large part of the fantasy is the ends to which that stealth is for. it also seems to be "melee mantle taxed" where mantles designed for melee are just simply really impotent in comparison to caster mantles.

 

[Mindos]

the dark imbuement and paranoia effects portray themselves as for high attack rate builds but have an ICD of 1 second to mitigate magic missile spam which ultimately kills said effects for the exact builds that would love to use it like twf assassin rogues, the ICD basically contradicts the ideal use case of sneak dice which is high attack rate so it leaves the epic strikes feeling thematically disjointed from what they actually scale with.

Quoted for truth. Just more restrictions on what you can dream to do. Wanna ignore the tank/healer/dps trio and roll your own toon? Nah, gimped or dead in the water before you even start. Can't do this or that because of some edge case so they squash it down hard. So what if the magic missle spam was so gosh darn powerful? So what?

Game has turned into an imaginary worldspace of NO and CAN'T, instead of GO and EXPLORE.