Guys, be patient. Wait for the 64-bit servers.

Silvorn

Well-known member
I support the game by being a VIP. I expect it to be playable. Today when I want to play not in weeks or months when maybe new servers will fix the issue. Green network status but things just stop for 10-15 seconds. Been horrible all day. Reboot the servers if that is what is needed.
 

Lori

Well-known member
I don't want to deal with that.
The Orien transfers were bad enough and I dumped many Astral Shards into the guild ship and shrine.
Item/storage management is a pain in the ass.
Just migrate the 32bit VMs to better hardware?

I also don't want even worse latency by being forced to connect to Las Vegas instead of Boston
 

Mornyngstar

Well-known member
I don't want to deal with that.
The Orien transfers were bad enough and I dumped many Astral Shards into the guild ship and shrine.
Item/storage management is a pain in the ass.
Just migrate the 32bit VMs to better hardware?

I also don't want even worse latency by being forced to connect to Las Vegas instead of Boston

If you had watched or read the accounts for the last 2 Friday at Four sessions or even the OP of this thread, they will be working on the issue of Guild, Astral Shard, Pets, Mounts and Monster Manual transfers to the potential new servers (part of the process is the ViP only server of Cormyr with no transfers). (IMO) Part of the transfers I think is that instead of rolling all the dead accounts and toons to new servers, that is why they hinted they will have free transfers to the new 64 bit servers if/when they go to them. The new 64 bit server stress test allowed them to reduce many issues so they can now focus better on potential lag issues that should also help with the 32 bit servers as they go forward. For many years tons of people have said "Fix the lag!" This a major step forward for them to do so. As to the Las Vegas server people had been asking for been asking for less latency and according to Tolero, Australia had good results with the stress test. There was also a hint that if things continue to be good, they may be looking at a European server along with the ones in Boston.
I hope this answers as many questions as possible.
 

Ryiah

Well-known member
Just migrate the 32bit VMs to better hardware?
It doesn't work like that. Just in case you're not aware the 32-bit is a reference to the amount of memory that an application can address. A 32-bit app can address 4GB (2GB for the app itself and 2GB split between the OS and the hardware). What that means is that at most the server instances can only access 2GB RAM for the characters and their abilities, enemies and their abilities, the dungeon itself, etc.

To work around this limitation the server automatically tries to swap code and data in and out of that small pool of memory. In the past this was just fine because the game was simple and the players had simple characters, but as the game has grown more complex and the player characters have aged the amount of swapping that must take place has become a heavy burden on the server.

Increasing performance can somewhat help but you're still dealing with the constant swaps and eventually the game will become too complex for 2GB memory. Switching to 64-bit basically removes this limitation altogether by enabling access to up to 16 exabytes (18,446,744,073 GB) of RAM which in turn will allow them to support better hardware.

It was mentioned by Tolero that the constant delays the server was seeing from this behavior is completely gone with the 64-bit test server, and because of that they're now able to pinpoint specific delays (eg Shroud lag spikes) that were previously being drowned out by the constant ambient lag of the 32-bit server technology. So some improvements are trickling back to 32-bit but overall the primary way forward is 64-bit.

TL;DR: Upgrading the hardware requires the 64-bit server technology.
 
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AngryGreek

Well-known member
I was forced to do a little research on the actual difference between a 32 bit and 64 bit server, assuming (wildly incorrectly) that a 64 bit server would be twice as fast / powerful.

"A 32-bit system can address up to 4GB of memory, while a 64-bit system can address much more, up to 16 exabytes (which is 16 billion gigabytes). This means that a 64-bit system can handle larger amounts of data and run more complex applications."

This makes me a little more than cautiously optimistic.
 

Nebless

Well-known member
3.) Character names (I will absolutely quit if I lose my main's name).

As I understood it, they were going to just create 'new' 64bit versions of the current servers and from one day to the next all the data on that 32bit server would be migrated over to the 64bit version of say Khyber.

So no transfer acts on our parts and no changing servers.

If that's the case than names, guilds etc.... won't be a problem as it'll just be same-o same-o
 

Ryiah

Well-known member
As I understood it, they were going to just create 'new' 64bit versions of the current servers and from one day to the next all the data on that 32bit server would be migrated over to the 64bit version of say Khyber.
Unless they've stated otherwise my understand is that they won't be upgrading the existing servers to 64-bit. Instead there will be new servers with free transfers to them.
 

AngryGreek

Well-known member
Watch Cord@4 with Tolero...

Tolero was positively glowing about the 64-bit servers like it was the holy grail was just located and we're all about to be immortal/healed i.e. Indiana Jones.

Basically, the stress test went WAAAAAAY beyond expectations. (I told them the hardware was the problem a zillion times ... read my past posts! but thats neither here or there now)

And so they are light-speeding the integration of 64-bit technology and the transfer of our characters to these brand new servers in their brand new state-of-the-art datacenters in Las Vegas.

They still need to resolve:

1.) Guild transfers

2.) Bank and Moneter Manual transfers (maybe they'll just wipe the monster manual for everyone and start over)

3.) Character names (I will absolutely quit if I lose my main's name).

The transfer itself will probably be automatic as the 32-bit servers ultimately shuts down. months and months of work (possibly up to a year to complete who knows?

Soooo, it's happening. We're all going to sail to the Undying lands of Lagless and be happy for it!
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Ok, be patient. I'm also excited for the 64 bit servers. However, I am still paying full price to be VIP for a product that SSG has all but admitted is seriously f***ed up, and that many of us are finding increasingly unplayable. I've just shut my game down for the night. Three back to back deaths (and subsequent quest failures) due to lag are more than enough for me to think about downloading Skyrim again, or logging in to D4. They don't scratch the same itch, but at least I'm not paying full price for a product that is increasingly frustrating and sometimes downright infuriating. Imagine paying to go see a movie and the movie just randomly pauses every thirty seconds or so, and then craps out altogether forcing them to restart it. Would you simply shrug and say 'be patient, changes are coming'?
 

Ryiah

Well-known member
Imagine paying to go see a movie and the movie just randomly pauses every thirty seconds or so, and then craps out altogether forcing them to restart it. Would you simply shrug and say 'be patient, changes are coming'?
I'm old enough to remember when every video on the Internet required extensive buffering to be playable. I still watched the videos even when I knew that there would be multiple moments in the video that I had to pause and go grab food while it buffered the next segment. So, I most likely would just shrug and say 'be patient, changes are coming' but I also would say 'cancel your VIP and play premium for a while'.
 

AngryGreek

Well-known member
I'm old enough to remember when every video on the Internet required extensive buffering to be playable. I still watched the videos even when I knew that there would be multiple moments in the video that I had to pause and go grab food while it buffered the next segment. So, I most likely would just shrug and say 'be patient, changes are coming' but I also would say 'cancel your VIP and play premium for a while'.
So the company, who more than happily takes our money every month, has zero responsibility? Your 'solution' is that all of the customers unhappy with the current state of affairs simply cancel their VIP memberships? One downside to that: it screws with our monthly VIP rewards. Another downside to that: it's putting the onus of responsibility on the customer instead of the business.

I'm old enough to remember whether or not Beta of VHS were going to win the home video race. The problem with your analogy is that 'back in the day' that buffering was status quo for everything. It's not as though you were paying the same price for one service and getting (and expecting) crappier service. Here's the issue, as I see it: VIP for DDO is $20 CDN per month. Seems a bit high considering the age of the game and the current issues, but I love the game and am happy to support it to keep it alive. Conversely, WoW (no way I'd go back) is ALSO $20 per month and doesn't have nearly this level of unplayability due to lag.

If the company is admitting that the lag is horrendous (which they have, just in the last Fridays at 4) and that it's their fault (which they essentially have) then, to me, it would be incumbent on them to address this by offering their loyal customer base who have been paying for decades an incentive to stick around. A 'thank you' for putting up with the issues while they work on a solution. If you have no problem taking your customers money, then you should also have no problem bending over backwards to make things right when they are not getting what they paid for. It's a little thing called customer service that many, many companies today don't seem to give a flying f**k about.
 

Ryiah

Well-known member
So the company, who more than happily takes our money every month, has zero responsibility?
No, but I also acknowledge that the solution isn't a simple one that they can do on short order. Tolero has stated that in a best case scenario we're weeks away from Cormyr going live which means we're likely months away from the final stages of this update. It's up to you if you want to keep paying during that time period.

Here's the issue, as I see it: VIP for DDO is $20 CDN per month. Seems a bit high considering the age of the game
It's not that high when you consider video games not increasing over the years with everything else. A $15 sub in 2006 and a $15 sub in 2024 do not have the same cost. We're paying approximately $9.50 in 2006 money. Therefore I would argue that it's gone down in cost. That's all irrelevant though because you can't simply take that $20 CDN and play another DDO-like. Nothing is like DDO which is why both of us continue to play it.
 
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dur

Paladin. Disruptor. Since the 1970s
Watch Cord@4 with Tolero...

Tolero was positively glowing about the 64-bit servers like it was the holy grail was just located and we're all about to be immortal/healed i.e. Indiana Jones.

Basically, the stress test went WAAAAAAY beyond expectations. (I told them the hardware was the problem a zillion times ... read my past posts! but thats neither here or there now)
Who are you?

IDC who was "positively glowing" until I see the server live with events, that apparently lag things.

The core issue is the newer feats. I can watch lag while they proc!

*Frankly, I don't care what the talking heads say. The "stress-test" was a joke unless it's subjected to events -- which ppl say causes lag.

**AND until we can transfer toons to this awesome 64-bit server, I will wait for a Fallout MMO.
 
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AngryGreek

Well-known member
No, but I also acknowledge that the solution isn't a simple one that they can do on short order. Tolero has stated that in a best case scenario we're weeks away from Cormyr going live which means we're likely months away from the final stages of this update. It's up to you if you want to keep paying during that time period.
I don't want (nor did I mention) a quick and simple fix. Things of quality often take time, and I'm ok with that. What I want is for SSG to stand up and own this, and find a way to thank their loyal VIP subscribers for supporting them through these 'growing pains'. To be fair, this is growth that should have been handled LONG ago, but they now realize that if these changes aren't made, the game is essentially dead, and none of us wants that.

I have no issues whatsoever paying subs for a game. I've been doing it since EQ launched in 1999 (I still laugh when people on these forums complain about 'the grind', oh you sweet summer children). I don't mind if I can't play for a day or two for emergency maintenance etc. However, systemic issues like we've been having aren't in the realm of acceptability. I don't want to cancel my VIP for reasons mentioned earlier, but in an ideal world I'd like SSG to say thank you. I don't need free months of VIP, just give me something shiny! Have one of your developers make a 'thank you' cosmetic for the subscribers who hung in through Laggagedon '24. Most DDO players I know love their cosmetics and would be very pleased with a surprise exclusive cosmetic. Great way to get people to forget about the lag issues. But, again, this requires a focus on customer service and satisfaction, and not JUST profit, which is not the MO of most modern day corporations.
 

AbyssalMage

Well-known member
The fact you made a post believing the lag will be "magically" solved by upgrading to a 64 bit server tells me everything I need to know. I'm sure it will be better just how it was better after every other change they have made. The architecture they built DDO on is "ancient" by computer standards. Our Computers that a majority of players run DDO on are futuristic in comparison.

This server "update" is not going to solve the problem. It's just another band-aid for poor programming and a decade and more of no quality control. They want to honestly solve the problem they need to first address quality control and their lack of having any.
 

Denis Iron

Well-known member
Therefore, I am hopeful that we will see significantly less lag on the 64-bit servers
I am afraid, 64-bit is not a panacea. The problem with logic in code, while servers calculates any of your action. But in most cases it is the work of client. Server does not need to know, if I am on the ledge, or near it. Server-side needs to check my position only when I am in the enemy action trigger. And so on...
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
I am afraid, 64-bit is not a panacea. The problem with logic in code, while servers calculates any of your action. But in most cases it is the work of client. Server does not need to know, if I am on the ledge, or near it. Server-side needs to check my position only when I am in the enemy action trigger. And so on...

While 64 bit is no a complete panacea - if you watch the interview with Tolera you will learn that there are two major things that improve.

a) The 32 bits do not address enough memory, so the game has to swap data in and out of ram sometimes. Thats very time-consuming compared to having everything in ram. This is what Tolera calls ambient lag, which will definitely be reduced or fully removed by going 64 bit.

b) With the ambient lag gone it is _much_ easier to identify, debug and fix other specific and reproduceable sources of lag, e.g. running up the stairs to loot in Shroud which Tolera mentions finding the problem in code for after the 64 bit test. So, fixing a (server) makes finding and fixing b (code) much more likely.

Obviously that wont fix all sources of lag. Latency, packloss, local computer gfx issues etc will still exist, but it is very promising. That does not help us now, unfortunately., so hopefully the process of fully migrating to 64 bit can be done soon while still being done safely.
 

AbyssalMage

Well-known member
While 64 bit is no a complete panacea - if you watch the interview with Tolera you will learn that there are two major things that improve.

a) The 32 bits do not address enough memory, so the game has to swap data in and out of ram sometimes. Thats very time-consuming compared to having everything in ram. This is what Tolera calls ambient lag, which will definitely be reduced or fully removed by going 64 bit.
And "future" developers will fill this "new" space with more processes creating problems for futuristic developers. This is the Band-Aid. Why is old hardware routinely needing to swap memory on a game/system purposefully built on 32 bit hardware? I know we are taught to "color outside the lines" but sometimes you have to take a step back and realize this isn't always good advice.
b) With the ambient lag gone it is _much_ easier to identify, debug and fix other specific and reproduceable sources of lag, e.g. running up the stairs to loot in Shroud which Tolera mentions finding the problem in code for after the 64 bit test. So, fixing a (server) makes finding and fixing b (code) much more likely.
I mean it is nice they found the cause. Yet they should have been able to find the cause without a 64 bit client. This is quality control. Something that still will not exist after the switch. A dedicated team should have found this bad line of code and/or subroutines before Ravenloft was ever released which was years ago.
Obviously that wont fix all sources of lag. Latency, packloss, local computer gfx issues etc will still exist, but it is very promising. That does not help us now, unfortunately., so hopefully the process of fully migrating to 64 bit can be done soon while still being done safely.
It wont help us now or in the future. I love the optimism but the pragmatic outlook is they keep fighting "symptoms" instead of the actual "problem." The closest that I can think of where they actually solved the "problem" instead of continuing to fight the "symptoms" was the major rework on Handwraps. That took nearly 9 to 12 months of work (from memory). Yet that paid off dividends for current and future developers. They have not shown the same willingness since then.
 

The Nameless One

What can change the nature of a man ?
My dudes... it's the freaking hardware.

The idea that "it's the code" is a red herring sold to you by past and present devs so they can deflect blame in what is effectively a corporate main office issue and correct answer; which is to buy better hardware.

Think about it, compare some of the modern multi-player games vs. this 20 year old "pong-like" MMO, there's zero comparison. Case in point the massive EVE online battle that took place involving 5,000 players and 100 capital ships costing almost half a million dollars (yes U.S. dollars) in damages to in-game items.

And if you know EVE you know one capital ship does more calculations than all of Orien server. It was crazy:

So, it was never the code; the bottleneck was ancient hardware from a bygone era of MMO games.

WoW classic is currently entirely 64-bit, they can accomodate thousands of concurrent players and there is seemingly zero lag anywhere.

Anyway, Tolero said that things are going so well that there is a possibility we'll be transferring off these 32-bit rust buckets by end-of-year!

Tolero... please hurry! I can't hold off the disenchanted players for much longer!
 

McFuggins

Active member
I played around for a couple of hours on Cormyr and I was getting lag in common areas, etc. After a couple more hitch jumps where you stay in the air a bit I decided to make progress on a toon for a while on the real servers.
 

The Nameless One

What can change the nature of a man ?
I played around for a couple of hours on Cormyr and I was getting lag in common areas, etc. After a couple more hitch jumps where you stay in the air a bit I decided to make progress on a toon for a while on the real servers.
meaningless.

the true data is what they have server side. your personal experience is just that personal which could be for any number of reasons. Maybe they were fiddling around with your particular server #; or a shark chomped on an underwater cable who knows?
 
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