AngryGreek
Well-known member
Damned sharks. Always chomping cables...
Guys, be patient. Wait for the 64-bit servers.
- Thread starter The Nameless One
- Start date
Vish
Founder and Winner of DDO
so who can answer why the DDO servers are 32 bit?
if 64 bit servers were around at time of the games open?
what language is DDO coded in?
)i know its the money thing)
and even tho the game apparently has had lag for all those years,
it has become the huge problem with higher charachter level and powers.
and 32 is woefully inadequate.
so youre saying the architecture between 32 bit and 64 bit server is different?
and theyre not running virtual memory 64 bit servers running 32 bit code?
so they have to do a physical upgrade,
and a software upgrade?
sorry im a quantum physicist not a computer engineer
if 64 bit servers were around at time of the games open?
what language is DDO coded in?
)i know its the money thing)
and even tho the game apparently has had lag for all those years,
it has become the huge problem with higher charachter level and powers.
and 32 is woefully inadequate.
so youre saying the architecture between 32 bit and 64 bit server is different?
and theyre not running virtual memory 64 bit servers running 32 bit code?
so they have to do a physical upgrade,
and a software upgrade?
sorry im a quantum physicist not a computer engineer
When the game was created, 32-bit architecture was still pretty common.
I believe it is written in C or C++, though I'm not 100% sure. The language doesn't really matter that much though. I've written scalable software in Python and even Perl. What matters more if what the code is doing and, more importantly, how it's doing it. In most languages, there are many ways to do the same thing and some are quicker or more memory efficient than others. Typically memory-efficiency is slower and faster requires more memory (such as for caching frequently used data). This is a trade-off and it can be difficult to balance it. Also, this balance may shift as the number of users, items in the game, etc. changes over time. There are also just plain bad ways to do things that are neither optimized for speed or memory.
That's what I understand from recaps of the Friday stream that people have provided. It sounds like they are butting up against the memory addressing limits of what the 32-bit architecture can handle. I have no idea what all the server needs to keep in memory at any given time in order to function, but as more abilities (from past lives, for instance) need to be tracked, the memory usage would certainly increase. The max addressable limit for 64-bit architecture is vastly more memory than someone will be able to have in a computer in the foreseeable future.
Yes and no. An Intel (or AMD) 64-bit processor is backwards compatible with its 32-bit counterpart, but it adds more features, has twice the address space, and the registers (think of them as variables built-into the hardware) are twice as large. The 64-bit processors can run the 32-bit code, but slower than native 64-bit code due to both not using the full potential but also due to having to convert between 32-bit and 64-bit memory addressing internally. However, a 32-bit processor cannot run code written for its 64-bit counterpart due to not having the 64-bit versions of the registers, different addressing limits, etc.
Correct. The only way you can run a 64-bit OS in a virtual machine on a 32-bit server is through emulation which would be horribly slow and, likely, buggy. But, even if it would run reliably and not like a tortoise in molasses, it would have the same hardware limitations they have now (namely the memory addressing) due to the nature of the physical hardware it would be running on.
Ryiah
Well-known member
DDO (2006) is built on the same framework as Asheron's Call (1999). Server hardware did exist at the time that supported 64-bit but it was esoteric, very expensive, and they ran unusual OSes. For example a Sun Microsystems server could easily run up to $100,000 USD ($217,000 in today's money) and was restricted to Unix OSes. Want to know the crazy part? Sun's servers were considered affordable. Some could easily hit $500,000 each.
PC-based servers started to become popular around the time of AC (late 90s to early 2000s) and started to rapidly displace everything else. It didn't have 64-bit but it made up for it by being absurdly low cost compared to the competition. For example a Sun Microsystems X2100 with an AMD Opteron CPU cost less than $1,000 USD. So instead of one or two high-end servers you could have literally hundreds of budget tier ones.
Okay, that answered why the servers started off as 32-bit, but why are they on it now? First, cost. DDO isn't a popular game. It only has a few thousand daily active users and most of that is because it fills a niche that nothing else has tried to occupy or at least occupy successfully.
Second, and this one is my opinion, I don't think they knew or at least had a way of knowing it was a problem until somewhat recently. Tolero mentioned that they have a system that creates a report any time the servers experience a delay and that once they started using it they noticed that it was going off frequently. She also mentioned that the 64-bit server hasn't created that report a single time even with extensive attempts to hammer the server.
Tolero also mentioned that they've been improving their performance tools over the years to help find the source of specific instances of lag but that the server-wide delay was happening often and badly enough that it was drowning out these specific instances making it almost impossible to find their real source. I highly recommend watching the latest Fridays at Four where she talks about it all. She does a great job of explaining it.
Last edited:
KylerrTheMajty
Well-known member
Nice joke mate stress test when 10 ppl was online and still laged maybe not like old servers but still laged with 10 ppl on it and it success... Nice...Watch Cord@4 with Tolero...
Tolero was positively glowing about the 64-bit servers like it was the holy grail was just located and we're all about to be immortal/healed i.e. Indiana Jones.
Basically, the stress test went WAAAAAAY beyond expectations. (I told them the hardware was the problem a zillion times ... read my past posts! but thats neither here or there now)
And so they are light-speeding the integration of 64-bit technology and the transfer of our characters to these brand new servers in their brand new state-of-the-art datacenters in Las Vegas.
They still need to resolve:
1.) Guild transfers
2.) Bank and Monster Manual transfers (maybe they'll just wipe the monster manual for everyone and start over)
3.) Character names (I will absolutely quit if I lose my main's name).
The transfer itself will probably be automatic as the 32-bit servers ultimately shuts down. months and months of work (possibly up to a year to complete who knows?
Soooo, it's happening. We're all going to sail to the Undying lands of Lagless and be happy for it!
Dandonk
Beater of Dead Horses
"Gimp" was made up for the example. My actual characters are numerous, but I mostly play Dantig and Jarlenn.
THAC0 are cool people, though. I think they have a new guild running on Orien?
Dragavon
Well-known member
OP is talking absolute rubbish.
The servers are in such a bad state with constant lag that action must be taken now. Waiting many months for 64 bit servers is not an option, people will stop playing if the situation continues to get worse as it has done the last year.
I have talked to Steelstar on discord, and he says SSG are constantly working on improving performance, but whatever they are doing it is not working. Lag has just been getting worse every update.
Something must be done now, we can not wait for 64 bit servers sometime next year.
The servers are in such a bad state with constant lag that action must be taken now. Waiting many months for 64 bit servers is not an option, people will stop playing if the situation continues to get worse as it has done the last year.
I have talked to Steelstar on discord, and he says SSG are constantly working on improving performance, but whatever they are doing it is not working. Lag has just been getting worse every update.
Something must be done now, we can not wait for 64 bit servers sometime next year.
The Nameless One
What can change the nature of a man ?
I've been on all the servers and yes, it's been bad, real bad.
But let's get real, the lag is happening because they are most likely cutting back on their east coast servers.
It makes sense.
Why extend contracts or pay for extras when they are moving their entire operations to a brand new datacenter on the west coast.
This is both bad and good news.
Bad news: It's gonna suuuuuuuuuuck the next 2-3 months.
Good news: They are most certainly transitioning to full blown 64-bit by the beginning of next year (a fast switch).
My advice, play casually until the transition is finished. Talk with friends, cut back on the R10's, laugh when the lag kills the party.
Be patient, better days are ahead!
But let's get real, the lag is happening because they are most likely cutting back on their east coast servers.
It makes sense.
Why extend contracts or pay for extras when they are moving their entire operations to a brand new datacenter on the west coast.
This is both bad and good news.
Bad news: It's gonna suuuuuuuuuuck the next 2-3 months.
Good news: They are most certainly transitioning to full blown 64-bit by the beginning of next year (a fast switch).
My advice, play casually until the transition is finished. Talk with friends, cut back on the R10's, laugh when the lag kills the party.
Be patient, better days are ahead!
Mornyngstar
Well-known member
First of all, the server in Las Vegas is for the Cormyr server only. This server is to test the 64-bit system and also to help find and fix lag issues. There was talk in the Fridays at Four broadcast that if/when they make more 64-bit servers that some would be in the current east coast location. There was also talk about a potential European based server. They have already located the lag issue after part 1 of the Shroud, the Crayfish room of Whiteplume Mountain and the room in Best Laid Plans. After they make fixes, they will update even the current servers thereby IMPROVING the game. Progress can't be done in a single day but piece by piece. As to switching full blown to 64-bit servers that is just for Cormyr.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
^ this is just bad inaccurate information all around.
Tyrande
Well-known member
The project "Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach" started back in 2004? It went alpha around January of 2006 and beta around February of 2006, head start on February 24, 2006 and live on February 28, 2006. At 2006, 32 bit architecture was still very popular; Windows XP (32 bit OS) was very popular; Windows 7 and up does not exist yet.
Windows Professional 64 and Vista were available but who were using those? I know Solaris had 64 bits and I don't think even MacOS or Linux was running 64 bits yet?
DDO I believe is coded in 2005 C++.
IMHO, yeah your conjecture may be correct. 32 bits maybe okay for 10 levels, even 20 levels but woefully inadequate for 139 TRs and 40 levels each TR.
Ryiah
Well-known member
People have said this for years. Some of them are in this thread and in Discord saying it now. I'll believe it when they do it.
Anything "done now" will be a band-aid solution. In the long term 64-bit is the only way to make this game playable. Anyone telling you otherwise is just kidding themselves as the only other alternative would be to greatly reduce the load on the server and that would mean everyone loses their past lives, their fancy enhancements, their fancy items, etc.
Items were far less complex when this game came out too. One or two effects at most with the effects being simple ones while today we have several effects and often these effects have multiple behaviors tied to them. Everything is just too complex for a 32-bit server to keep in active memory.
Last edited:
5 Other People
all the voices in my head are my own
Sadly, and with no hyperbole, I've stopped playing and I do miss it. I stalk the forums for signs of change, looking for my re-entry point.
I left b/c of how MD loot was killing the MD saga. Though frankly, before that there were a few times when I'd group with a bunch of heavy hitters doing normal dungeon stuff and on several occasions the server lagged/choked then kicked us out.
IMO, DDO Release 69 was built and optimized on 64-bit sever, when too many folks login (for say a new raid) the little hamsters can't keep up.
The Nameless One
What can change the nature of a man ?
How I understand the problem...
Archangeluriel
Well-known member
No im not coming. I'll go play the event to check it out but im not leaving behind 18 years worth of progress. Not until they figure out how to move my toons and all the work I put in on them. So while the promise of new server hardware sounds good, its not for me who will stick out the suffering to not have to restart.Watch Cord@4 with Tolero...
Tolero was positively glowing about the 64-bit servers like it was the holy grail was just located and we're all about to be immortal/healed i.e. Indiana Jones.
Basically, the stress test went WAAAAAAY beyond expectations. (I told them the hardware was the problem a zillion times ... read my past posts! but thats neither here or there now)
And so they are light-speeding the integration of 64-bit technology and the transfer of our characters to these brand new servers in their brand new state-of-the-art datacenters in Las Vegas.
They still need to resolve:
1.) Guild transfers
2.) Bank and Monster Manual transfers (maybe they'll just wipe the monster manual for everyone and start over)
3.) Character names (I will absolutely quit if I lose my main's name).
The transfer itself will probably be automatic as the 32-bit servers ultimately shuts down. months and months of work (possibly up to a year to complete who knows?
Soooo, it's happening. We're all going to sail to the Undying lands of Lagless and be happy for it!
Bowserkoopa
King of the Koopa's
What on earth will it take for the forum users at large to understand Cormyr is intended for the event and as a by choice to start over for VIP's only and the fact that they fully intend to make 64 bit servers that you can transfer to with all your progress and even things that don't work currently such as guilds, airships, pets, mounts and monster manual progress. Someone really screwed the pooch by putting the Cormyr details out before going over the 64 bit server plans in their entirety.
Mornyngstar
Well-known member
Not being able to transfer is for Cormyr server only while they work out the problems of being able to transfer the stuff that they can't right now. Watch the video for all the info (I suck at typing so not going to write it all again).