Heroic Reincarnation is a drag

[Buddha5440]

LOL .. I'm flattered you're so curious about my playing, though it does seem a bit trollish in tenor. Don't worry, I like reading your posts. If I happen to quote you, it's as likely to be for a supporting rather than counter point -- or like here, to give readers curiousity context.

Obviously, not ALL my builds start with iconics. The one I'm releveling now is from L1 and it's dull. I usually don't starting perking up until ravenloft around L12. I don't really start enjoying it again until somewhere in 20~24, though.

Saying heroics are easy and boring is not a slap to new players. If you really care, you can hunt down my very first posts on the old forum. As a brand new newbie first time player, I also posted that I thought Heroic Elite was the ideal difficulty for learning/SOLO play and that it was too easy for grouping.

At the time, I advocated removing all difficulties below Elite. That's from when I was brand new.

Later on, I ran into peeps that run with their VERY young kids in family groups (like 6 year-olds). Bit of a light-bulb event there, since I never saw that in other MMOs. Now the lower difficulties make sense.

Fair enough...

My point, abstract as it might be, was more about the no learning because you don't run with high skull groups. That points more to the elitism of a large portion of the player base (zergers/high reaper only types) that seems to occupy all the LFMs nowadays. If you're a 'new' player and that's all you see, you're apt to join one, die, get left behind because they were already three rooms ahead of you, and lose interest.

If you, and others, find Heroic a grind...maybe use the forums to encourage more to take the time while doing those dull/boring levels to run non-zerg/non-reaper LFMs and take some time to talk with and teach the new players so they stick around?

 

[Bjond]

more to the elitism of a large portion of the player base (zergers/high reaper only types)

Ah! My comment was because high reaper and raids are literally the only place in DDO where I have EVER seen any teamwork on the group level; ie. caster holds so dps can kill, tank tanks, healer heals, ... classic stuff, but you won't see/learn it in heroic.

Outside those situations, it's a mad solo/zerg frenzy with everyone scattering to maximize parallel effort and complete quests ASAP. It's "grouping" only by technicality and woe betide the poor newbie that joins. They're lucky to get a tip on how to find the entry.

I was dismayed and frustrated as a newbie seeing this and what's worse is that now that I'm on the vet side, I'm now frustrated with the newbies. What, you don't know where the start is? You don't have a horse? Argggh. It's a no-win situation for everyone.

 

[Reaped and Ravaged]

2 Epic lives + 1 racial life after.

Rinse and repeat.

For leveling that's the best path to power. If you are new to the game by all means get the class lives that help your build before you start racial lives. Don't get too many of them though. It takes awhile to get enough racial lives for them to really matter.

Note that this is a Reaper neutral discussion. All you need to get the hamster wheel rolling is enough to reliably do R1 content at Epic levels.

If you are new ignore level 32+ It will do very little for you in terms of gaining Epic lives and racial lives.

New player advice: Get as many epic past lives as you can stomach without 1st time XP bonuses. They will be worth a lot more than the majority of feats you get from restarting at level 1. They will also make heroic leveling a breeze.

Level 32+ is not so tough with a full Saltmarsh(harder to get) or IoD set(or 2), even on a 1st life. In the case of IoD many experienced players will gladly pass you items as they are done up with Vecna items. IoD items are powerful enough. If you didn't get IoD from the free expansion giveaway Sands and Red Fens Epic gear is next best without expansions. Pug whatever reapers you can get at cap, even 2 reaper points more bang for the buck than releveling from lvl 1, 10 is even better. Most players won't mind you coming along as long as you don't make it impossible to complete content and are often well geared enough to pass you gear.

 

[erethizon1]

If one doesn't run elites or r+ for the quests that drop them, then it's hard to get them as n/h drop a much smaller amount; so those newest to the system will be those most likely to be getting subpar quantities of tokens. I remember it being tough to get 20 initially, whereas these days I have an overflow and get a ton more ever life.

I ran Cannith challenges, back when the level 20 token quests were super hard, until I had 200 tokens so I could get all my past lives for heroic completionist. Now, thanks to the much easier time earning tokens now that epic levels are here, I have over 1200 tokens since I run every quest every life (even when not going for an epic past life).

For general advice, plan to run every token quest once every life. If you are going for a heroic or racial life, get an epic past life as well. If you don't need any past lives, consider running the token quests anyway for tokens and favor. Getting past lives isn't everything. Taking a little extra time to farm a bit more tokens and favor before TRing can work out just fine.

 

[Tanis]

Why are there still only a limited number of quests that reward tokens of the twelve?
Why not have them as optional rewards for all epic and legendary quests?
How do other players go about TRing?

Tokens come from old epic quests pre MOTU only and were grandfathered in due to players feedback

Target those quests for your leveling if you want them if not there are heartseeds & Coms of valor

 

[Buddha5440]

Ah! My comment was because high reaper and raids are literally the only place in DDO where I have EVER seen any teamwork on the group level; ie. caster holds so dps can kill, tank tanks, healer heals, ... classic stuff, but you won't see/learn it in heroic.

Outside those situations, it's a mad solo/zerg frenzy with everyone scattering to maximize parallel effort and complete quests ASAP. It's "grouping" only by technicality and woe betide the poor newbie that joins. They're lucky to get a tip on how to find the entry.

I was dismayed and frustrated as a newbie seeing this and what's worse is that now that I'm on the vet side, I'm now frustrated with the newbies. What, you don't know where the start is? You don't have a horse? Argggh. It's a no-win situation for everyone.

I can get behind you on that.

A lot of those that 'have' in this game...MORE TO POINT, IN THESE FORUMS...seem to think that everyone should do as they say and 'Just run R!+ or give up because, as we all know, 'R1 is the new NORM', even for new players who can't run it without an opener (who will Zerg ahead and leave them wondering "WYFJH???".

As a side note...I knew we were on the same page, or at least within a few pages of the same book. I was trying to get a rise out of you, and it worked...for the benefit of all, I hope.

No disrespect meant towards you...Just using some PSYC101.

 

[Spook]

New player advice: Get as many epic past lives as you can stomach without 1st time XP bonuses. They will be worth a lot more than the majority of feats you get from restarting at level 1. They will also make heroic leveling a breeze.

Level 32+ is not so tough with a full Saltmarsh(harder to get) or IoD set(or 2), even on a 1st life. In the case of IoD many experienced players will gladly pass you items as they are done up with Vecna items. IoD items are powerful enough. If you didn't get IoD from the free expansion giveaway Sands and Red Fens Epic gear is next best without expansions. Pug whatever reapers you can get at cap, even 2 reaper points more bang for the buck than releveling from lvl 1, 10 is even better. Most players won't mind you coming along as long as you don't make it impossible to complete content and are often well geared enough to pass you gear.

I dont recommend this if your long term goal is to get every possible bonus as once you have all your epic past lives lives you can no longer epic TR and you will still want to run to 30 for reaper first time bonuses (advice on this will change if they allow skipping epic levels if you dont Epic Reincarnate).

Combine heroic and Iconic
Combine Racial and Epic

Get as much legendary reaper first time bonus as possible each life. You need nearly 25M rxp to max out reaper points (this is actually surprisingly easy if you can get 1M+ rxp per life but solo/new players will need to build up to this or find groups/guilds to help out)

besides which 3 or 4 epic TRs feels grindy whereas going from 1-32 every life feels fresh as you are playing new builds all the time (unless you play one of those TR build abominations where its playing the same build every life.

 

[Reaped and Ravaged]

I dont recommend this if your long term goal is to get every possible bonus as once you have all your epic past lives lives you can no longer epic TR and you will still want to run to 30 for reaper first time bonuses (advice on this will change if they allow skipping epic levels if you dont Epic Reincarnate).

Combine heroic and Iconic
Combine Racial and Epic

Get as much legendary reaper first time bonus as possible each life. You need nearly 25M rxp to max out reaper points (this is actually surprisingly easy if you can get 1M+ rxp per life but solo/new players will need to build up to this or find groups/guilds to help out)

besides which 3 or 4 epic TRs feels grindy whereas going from 1-32 every life feels fresh as you are playing new builds all the time (unless you play one of those TR build abominations where its playing the same build every life.

Your approach is not appealing to the vast majority of the new players following in the footsteps of forum posters. Ask the poster that started that 9 out of 10 people he introduced the game to had no interest in continuing the game with all these reincarnation requirements.

No one said max out Epic past lives all in one go, I said do as many as you can stomach as the 1st 9 or so are worth significantly more than any heroic reincarnation. It does require heart seeds but you can theoretically do 21 Normal difficulty Epic/Legenday quests with daily bonus to get those out of the way. Alot more choices for Heart Seeds than for ToTs. Not too onerous

 

[Spook]

Your approach is not appealing to the vast majority of the new players following in the footsteps of forum posters. Ask the poster that started that 9 out of 10 people he introduced the game to had no interest in continuing the game with all these reincarnation requirements.

No one said max out Epic past lives all in one go, I said do as many as you can stomach as the 1st 9 or so are worth significantly more than any heroic reincarnation. It does require heart seeds but you can theoretically do 21 Normal difficulty Epic/Legenday quests with daily bonus to get those out of the way. Alot more choices for Heart Seeds than for ToTs. Not too onerous

I said my post was for those that intend to max out everything efficiently. It is tried and tested with my own alts.
Most people look too short term and prioritise the wrong things and they end up with bottlenecks eg no longer have any epic past lives to run but have 10M rxp to get and 7 racials to do. Can do the 7 racials 1-20 or go to 30+ to get the fat reaper first times but 20-30 gives them no benefit.

 

[Reaped and Ravaged]

Don't forget not everyone want to do a reincarnation train. Some classes are capable of doing R10 on a 1st life, properly geared. As in killing Doom Reapers not just being someone's pocket buddy

 

[erethizon1]

LOL .. I'm flattered you're so curious about my playing, though it does seem a bit trollish in tenor. Don't worry, I like reading your posts. If I happen to quote you, it's as likely to be for a supporting rather than counter point -- or like here, to give readers curiousity context.

Obviously, not ALL my builds start with iconics. The one I'm releveling now is from L1 and it's dull. I usually don't starting perking up until ravenloft around L12. I don't really start enjoying it again until somewhere in 20~24, though.

Saying heroics are easy and boring is not a slap to new players. If you really care, you can hunt down my very first posts on the old forum. As a brand new newbie first time player, I also posted that I thought Heroic Elite was the ideal difficulty for learning/SOLO play and that it was too easy for grouping.

At the time, I advocated removing all difficulties below Elite. That's from when I was brand new.

Later on, I ran into peeps that run with their VERY young kids in family groups (like 6 year-olds). Bit of a light-bulb event there, since I never saw that in other MMOs. Now the lower difficulties make sense.

How recently did you start the game? The game was very difficult more than a decade ago. Very few characters could solo elite. Those lower difficulties were quite necessary for many years. So much so they even had to add casual because normal could be too hard (my girlfriend and I failed to duo The Weapons Shipment on Normal in our first lives).

 

[Rusty_helmet]

There's got to be close to 2000 quests in the game and we're relegated to the same 20 quests to farm for tokens every life. This game really doesn't want you to experience the game.
No named loot in most optional chests
No named loot in most wilderness areas
Repeating the same quests over and over again
No catch up mechanics.
No sharing of power between characters

 

[erethizon1]

Ah! My comment was because high reaper and raids are literally the only place in DDO where I have EVER seen any teamwork on the group level; ie. caster holds so dps can kill, tank tanks, healer heals, ... classic stuff, but you won't see/learn it in heroic.

This once again makes me wonder if you are just relatively new. The game used to require teamwork at every level. It has gotten easier in no small part because that is what the players have wanted. They want to be able to solo and they want to be able to self-heal even if they are a melee character with no magical abilities.

 

[Br4d]

You want Epic lives for the power they bring both in terms of incremental bonuses and eventually for additional Epic Destiny points.

You want racial past lives because they unlock build possibilities not possible without them. In addition to other significant benefits.

You want 6-9 heroic past lives depending on your build. +6 spell pen is significant for a DC caster. +3 Evo DC's is significant for a DPS caster. +3 Transmutation or Conjuration DC's can be worthwhile depending on build.

Everything else is either irrelevant in the age of power creep or will happen naturally (reaper points) as you level.

 

[Buddha5440]

This once again makes me wonder if you are just relatively new. The game used to require teamwork at every level. It has gotten easier in no small part because that is what the players have wanted. They want to be able to solo and they want to be able to self-heal even if they are a melee character with no magical abilities.

True...just sad. Every class should be able to CC/DoT/Self-heal/Insta-kill/AoE/etc. Why do we even have classes anymore???

EDIT-Sarcasm, since I know a lot of you don't understand that concept.

 

[Spook]

This once again makes me wonder if you are just relatively new. The game used to require teamwork at every level. It has gotten easier in no small part because that is what the players have wanted. They want to be able to solo and they want to be able to self-heal even if they are a melee character with no magical abilities.

Ideally quests should be soloable but faster in groups - Wiz King is the classic example of this done right.

 

[Fizzix]

There's got to be close to 2000 quests in the game and we're relegated to the same 20 quests to farm for tokens every life. This game really doesn't want you to experience the game.
No named loot in most optional chests
No named loot in most wilderness areas
Repeating the same quests over and over again
No catch up mechanics.
No sharing of power between characters

This is how I feel about tokens of the twelve...

Fire up my 5 alt accounts and get them on a short quest in a 20 min session. Is it any fun... no. did I learn anything new? no. was there the possibility of loot that makes it worth it? not really.

When things are not fun, but are required, those things should not be part of a game.

We also need one button loot dump from TR cache to current inventory.

We also need a reincarnate to 20 with current build/feat/spell choices/ skill button. so 30-> isn't painful.

 

[flacracker0080]

Glad I don't have to worry about any TR/RRing since I never do them.

 

[Rusty_helmet]

Glad I don't have to worry about any TR/RRing since I never do them.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[santiago66]

Thanks for all your replies. For clarification, I'm not a new player. I've been playing for over a decade. However, I am casual. I log in for a maximum of 3 hours a week.
My main reason for TRing is to try out the new character builds that have been made available. I'm not VIP so I want my toons to be able to open all difficulties. I play the game for content and fun, not to make the greatest ever build. I'm happy to compromise builds to have characters that have a "personality".
I've played all that Epic Stormreach content loads of times. Often without being able to to the raid because the are no groups available that are not Reaper level (which isn't appropriate to a first or 2nd life toon). Also, I'm not in a US time zone where most of the players are.
I just wish there was a bit more variety in the ways we can TR. The new epic/legendary level content is great but only leads to Epic reincarnation.
Maybe I should look at the challenges but they sound repetitive and dull compared to doing adventure packs.