Hive Master or Thorn Knight?

[Arkat]

Any opinions?

I've never played a Blight Caster Druid, so I'm looking for some guidance from an experienced Blight Caster Druid player.

I'm guessing a Thorn Knight is more of a Melee/Ranged-type of Blight Caster, while a Hive Master is more of a caster Druid.

Acid spell power for a Hive Master and Force spell power for a Thorn Knight, yes?

Please correct me if I am wrong, and I'd appreciate any pointers you've learned along your Blight Caster path.

Thanks!

 

[unbongwah]

I'm guessing a Thorn Knight is more of a Melee/Ranged-type of Blight Caster, while a Hive Master is more of a caster Druid.

Either form can go either way.

• Hive Master: You have become one with the swarm. Your body shifts between yourself and a cloud of insects, as you merge in and out of the swarm. You are considered vermin for the purposes of immunities and are immune to mind effects and knock down. You gain a +3 bonus to caster level and maximum caster level to Poison and Acid Spells. You are ethereal to monsters while tumbling. You gain 50% concealment as displacement and Improved Evasion. You gain +2 Imbue Dice and +1 to Reflex saves for every 2 druid levels (Max 10). 15% vulnerability to cold and -15 on diplomacy checks.
• Thorn Knight: A more advanced form of Thorn Kin, you are now also plant kind beneath your thorny armor. You are considered a plant for purposes of most immunities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stun, mind effects. You can no longer drown in water. You gain a +3 bonus to caster level and maximum caster level to Physical and Poison spells. You gain 10% absorption against piercing damage and 5% absorb against blunt damage. You gain +2 imbue dice. 10% exceptional bonus to armor class and 100% fortification. 15% vulnerability to fire damage.

Same bonus to Poison spells and Imbue dice, different survivability bonuses. If you want to specialize in acid or physical spells, you pick the form which matches. You'll get both forms eventually on a pure Blightcaster so it's not like you need to focus on only one.

The main drawback to a melee BC based on Thorn / Hive is the lack of melee DPS bonuses to anything other than Blighted Wolf. So if you want to go that route, look into combining with Vistani Knife Fighter and/or multiclassing. E.g., Blightcaster 17 / Dragon Disciple 3: max-WIS SWF with 41 Vistani / 13 DrDi / 26 Blightcaster. Also see see the Bug Monk.

 

[peng]

Thorn spells are generally better (but not by all that much) until you get lvl 9 spells, at which point acid well is best

 

[Solarpower]

Thorn Knight in Heroics. Switch to Hive Master for Epics.

 

[Arkat]

Thanks, all.

This is the kind of guidance I was hoping to see.

 

[seph1roth5]

I think BC is waaaaaay more skewed towards caster. But either way, I'd take hive form every time. The built in displacement and improved evasion are just such powerful defenses.

 

[Arkat]

E.g., Blightcaster 17 / Dragon Disciple 3: max-WIS SWF with 41 Vistani / 13 DrDi / 26 Blightcaster.

I didn't think the SWF feats worked in Animal forms.

Has something changed?

Also, will the Offhand Versatility feat work if I don't have the SWF feat but am still fighting with a single weapon in one hand?

 

[Hobgoblin]

I like the evasion plus displacement in heroics especially

 

[glass_jaws]

I didn't think the SWF feats worked in Animal forms.

Has something changed?

Also, will the Offhand Versatility feat work if I don't have the SWF feat but am still fighting with a single weapon in one hand?

They don't in animal forms, but these aren't animal forms. You can use "normal" combat styles in elemental and these forms.

 

[magaiti]

Also, will the Offhand Versatility feat work if I don't have the SWF feat but am still fighting with a single weapon in one hand?

Offhand Versatility Prerequisite: BAB +8, Single Weapon Fighting

 

[ChickenMobile]

I didn't think the SWF feats worked in Animal forms.

Would like to add onto this.

Hive/Thorn are still categorised as a 'Wild Shape' and change your type to 'Hybrid' (Hive Keeper, Thorn Kin), 'Plant' (Thorn Knight) or 'Vermin' (Hive Master). This is important for spells like Magic Fang, Animal Growth, Plant Growth etc.
As glass said, all elemental, thorn or hive wild shapes benefit from any feat outside wild shape. They can even use a bow, throwing knife or crossbow - which animal forms (Bear, Wolf) cannot.

I don't think Elemental Form Specialty affects the blightcaster Hive/Thorn forms however.

 

[Arkat]

Would like to add onto this.

Hive/Thorn are still categorised as a 'Wild Shape' and change your type to 'Hybrid' (Hive Keeper, Thorn Kin), 'Plant' (Thorn Knight) or 'Vermin' (Hive Master). This is important for spells like Magic Fang, Animal Growth, Plant Growth etc.
As glass said, all elemental, thorn or hive wild shapes benefit from any feat outside wild shape. They can even use a bow, throwing knife or crossbow - which animal forms (Bear, Wolf) cannot.

I don't think Elemental Form Specialty affects the blightcaster Hive/Thorn forms however.

What about the Plague Wolf forms?

Will the SWF feats work in those forms?

 

[Willow]

If I remember right SWF don't work in wolf form, I use S&B with Blighted Wolf and there very tough but can still dish out the damage.

 

[glass_jaws]

Yeah SWF wont work in blighted wolf. It's an "animal form" so you can only use natural fighting.

 

[ChickenMobile]

What about the Plague Wolf forms?

Will the SWF feats work in those forms?

No. Plague wolf is... a wolf.

 

[Arkat]

Offhand Versatility Prerequisite: BAB +8, Single Weapon Fighting

Ok.

Let's say my Plague Wolf's Wisdom is 90. Normally, that's an extra 40 points to damage. By spending two feats (one of them -SWF- is completely useless to me except to qualify for Offhand Versatility), I get to add 10 more points of damage to each non-critical attack.

Boy, 10 extra points of damage (an extra 30 points on a critical assuming a x3 crit multiplier) doesn't sound like it's worth two feats.

 

[magaiti]

Ok.

Let's say my Plague Wolf's Wisdom is 80. Normally, that's an extra 20 points to damage. By spending two feats (one of them -SWF- is completely useless to me except to qualify for Offhand Versatility), I get to add 4 more points of damage to each non-critical attack.

Boy, 4 extra points of damage (an extra 12 points on a critical assuming a x3 crit multiplier) doesn't sound like it's worth two feats.

Offhand Versatility: You gain special bonuses for fighting with specific things in your offhand while Single Weapon Fighting.
Single Weapon Fighting: Does not function in animal forms.
All this is available on DDO wiki.

 

[Arkat]

Offhand Versatility: You gain special bonuses for fighting with specific things in your offhand while Single Weapon Fighting.
Single Weapon Fighting: Does not function in animal forms.

Ok, ok. I see now.

Even if I did get the SWF feat, it would not help my Wolf's ability to use Offhand Versatility because the kind of SWF it requires is the kind the feat gives you. And the feat won't give that version of SWF because the feat won't work with animal forms.

Got it.

 

[Arkat]

The main drawback to a melee BC based on Thorn / Hive is the lack of melee DPS bonuses to anything other than Blighted Wolf. So if you want to go that route, look into combining with Vistani Knife Fighter and/or multiclassing. E.g., Blightcaster 17 / Dragon Disciple 3: max-WIS SWF with 41 Vistani / 13 DrDi / 26 Blightcaster.

Ok, not thinking about a Thorn Knight or a Hive Master now. I'm seriously considering a Blighted Wolf build.

Why would I fight with a single weapon with a Blighted Wolf build?

I don't see any obvious advantage to fight with a single weapon since the SWF feats don't apply to Wolves.

About the only thing that can see that *might* be an advantage of fighting with one weapon is that in the Vistani tree, there an enhancement called Doubles Daggers. The Single Dagger version adds +20 Melee Power while the Double Daggers version gives a +20% stacking chance to Double-Strike while wielding two daggers or two kukris.

I'm not even sure that the Single Dagger version actually gives that +20 Melee Power because it says, "When Single Weapon Fighting with a dagger or kukri: +20 Melee Power." I'm thinking this really means when using the SWF feat which won't work with any Animal form.

Is there a different reason why you suggest fighting with a single weapon in Blighted Wolf form that I'm missing?

 

[Hobgoblin]

thf is best imo