Hive Master or Thorn Knight?

unbongwah

unbongwah

Well-known member
Arkat said:
Why would I fight with a single weapon with a Blighted Wolf build?
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You can put an orb in the offhand for caster bonuses. And you can use Vistani Knife Fighter with dagger or kukri; I think everything works in wolf form except Single Dagger, but have not tested to confirm. I do know Rapid Slash works, though, and a free AoE with +20% doublestrike goes a long way towards making up for only having 1x vs 1.5x damage modifier. If you're Shadarkai, you can also use chain attacks. If I wasn't a cheapskate, I'd like to try SDK Blightcaster 17 / Dragon Disciple 3 using kukris; just put some points into UMD and use Master's Touch scrolls for proficiency.
 
A

Aaumini

Well-known member
Thorn from 1-16, then at 17 you get acid well and should change to hive.

Use the acid imbue to toggle the breath attack into acid and it will strip immunity and your acid well will clean up. Note, it does not require wolf form to use.

None of that melee nonsense while levelling the most durable and still very high damage AoE caster.
 
FuzzyDuck81

FuzzyDuck81

Well-known member
Fun thing is that the thorn blade spell gets its caster level boosted by the thorn form so you can get the higher tier version earlier & it'll make for a very solid weapon & being made of wood, shillelegh boosts it's damage dice too. It's a real shame you can't use it to summon a quarterstaff version, IMO that'd be better than the 2wf summoned weapon.

Hive form is great defensively & for some giggles the concealment from shadowdancer mantle or Split the Soul GMoF epic moment will stack with it making you very hard to pin down - a more unusual build choice but a fun one.
 
W

Willow

Well-known member
I use S&B for the extra ac, prr and mrr the shield gives in wolf form. It also has devotion on it and 2 augment slots. just remember you can not use metal in wolf form for armor and shields. wood and bone works for shields. Speaking of bone she is also using a dino bone khopesh with the shield.
 
ChickenMobile

ChickenMobile

Well-known member
I have done extensive testing in wolf and other animal forms. If you want more specific info on things happy to expand on points here:

Definitions:
'Wild Shape' = Animal Forms, Elemental Forms, Hive and Thorn Shapes. i.e. any druid transformation.
'Animal Form' = Wolf or Bear
'Wolf' = Wolf, Winter Wolf, Plague Wolf and Blight Wolf
'Bear' = Bear or Dire Bear
  • Animal Forms can only benefit from the Natural Fighting style feat. Elemental, Hive or Thorn can benefit from any.
  • Animal Forms cannot fire ranged weapons
  • Animal Forms wielding a quarterstaff does not benefit from Qstaff attack speed increases in Henshin Mystic or Thief Acrobat
  • Animal Forms gain no damage benefit from wielding 2 weapons, only mainhand weapon counts. Traits which proc on general actions. e.g. Meltfang still apply though
  • Wielding a two-handed weapon gives you the base +50% extra damage to ability score in any Wild Shape, however only Bear benefits from the extra strikethrough and ability score damage from Natural Fighting feats.
    -This is why 2-handed weapons on Wolves are REALLY good. They get the extra damage while attacking wolf fast.
    Note: the +50% dmg also appears to happen with Bows/Crossbows, but obviously they cannot be fired.
  • Handwraps are counted as a 2-handed weapon in Animal Forms. This is probably to compensate for no offhand strike chance.
  • Animal forms double any additional Enhancement bonus on weapons. e.g. Magic Fang. This does not include the BASE enhancement bonus on weapons.
  • Only certain attacks work in Animal Forms. If you can, I suggest making an iconic and testing these if it is the 'staple' of your build.
    Note: I haven't tested every available attack in the game - mostly just Rogue and Monk w/ quarterstaves.
    • What does work ✅
      • All Vistani Knife Fighter attacks
      • Rogue: Sly Florish, Rogue Trap attacks
      • Monk: Reed in the Wind, Jade Strike, Dimissing Strike, Kukan-Do, Smite Tainted Creature, Tome of Jade, Balance in Dawn, Elemental Ki Strikes
      • General: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Stunning Blow, Trip, Sunder
    • What doesn't work ❌
      • Rogue: Staff Lunge, Sweeping Strike, Vault, Quick Strike
      • Tabaxi: Wide Sweep
      • Monk: Stunning Fist (even with handwraps)
  • In Animal forms: Vistani Knife Fighter Single Dagger does give you the +20 Melee Power if you are wielding a dagger/kukri and nothing in your offhand.
  • Dire Bears get a D12 weapon die while unarmed. However you are always better equipping a weapon. You get this die even if only wearing a shield (nothing mainhand)
    • Bug: Reinforced Fist items reduce your damage die in Bear Forms while unarmed
  • Animal Forms are unique in that they can block and still attack (not shield bash). This means you can attack with your mainhand weapon while still getting all the benefits from blocking with a shield.
    • This also works with Eldritch Blasting which cannot normally be blocking and channelled at the same time.
 
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M

magaiti

Well-known member
Arkat said:
Ok, not thinking about a Thorn Knight or a Hive Master now. I'm seriously considering a Blighted Wolf build.

Why would I fight with a single weapon with a Blighted Wolf build?

Is there a different reason why you suggest fighting with a single weapon in Blighted Wolf form that I'm missing?
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No one is suggesting you should use a single weapon on a Blighted Wolf.
 
M

magaiti

Well-known member
unbongwah said:
You can put an orb in the offhand for caster bonuses. And you can use Vistani Knife Fighter with dagger or kukri; I think everything works in wolf form except Single Dagger, but have not tested to confirm. I do know Rapid Slash works, though, and a free AoE with +20% doublestrike goes a long way towards making up for only having 1x vs 1.5x damage modifier. If you're Shadarkai, you can also use chain attacks. If I wasn't a cheapskate, I'd like to try SDK Blightcaster 17 / Dragon Disciple 3 using kukris; just put some points into UMD and use Master's Touch scrolls for proficiency.
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Arkat said:
I quoted Ubongwah's post and BOLDED the bit where he suggested "SWF" for a wolf build.

Check it out.
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No he didn't suggest using SWF because SWF doesnt work in wolf form. What he did suggest is using a dagger and nothing (or maybe an orb) in offhand for the purposes of VKF tree. In particular RapidSlash and 20 mp from Single Blade (though that one has to be tested)
 
Arkat

Arkat

Founder & Super Hero
magaiti said:
No he didn't suggest using SWF because SWF doesnt work in wolf form. What he did suggest is using a dagger and nothing (or maybe an orb) in offhand for the purposes of VKF tree. In particular RapidSlash and 20 mp from Single Blade (though that one has to be tested)
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He most certainly did. Check the next-to-last sentence here:


He may not have meant "use the SWF feat," but it was pretty clear to me to use a single weapon.
 
H

Hobgoblin

Less Nerfy Nerfy more fixy fixy
ChickenMobile said:
@Arkat @magaiti
You are both dumb.

The post was specific talking about a SWF build in Thorn or Hive build.
They mentioned Blight Wolf being blightcaster's main melee DPS but suggested a Multiclass split to get the most out of HIVE or THORN forms for melee DPS instead.
Visit the link they posted: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/bug-monk.22646 for an example of a HIVE melee DPS.

Stop arguing who was right about what said now lol.
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cool-hand-luke-paul-newman.gif
 
unbongwah

unbongwah

Well-known member
Arkat originally asked about melee Hive Master / Thorn Knight builds, to which my suggestion was SWF Blightcaster 17 / Dragon Disciple 3 using Vistani Knife Fighter as the primary melee DPS tree and enough APs into DrDi for WIS to atk/dmg/Battle Trance, as well as make orbs be centered gear. Because almost everything good in Nature's Warrior only works in animal forms. Also works for TWF, but SWF is less stat-constrained and better for AoE damage from Rapid Slash, Quick Cutter, etc.

Arkat then asked about Blighted Wolf builds, to which my suggestion is to stick with the 17/3 using knives, but this time with Natural Fighting feats and Tier-5 Nature's Warrior as primary melee DPS (Swift Hunter, Jaws of the Wolf, etc.), with 13 APs into DraDi again and at least 13 APs into Vistani for Rapid Slash, Haste Boost, Deadly Blades, and first three cores. According to the wiki, Single Dagger's +20 Melee Power will apply to animal forms if you have the first SWF feat and are single-wielding one, but I haven't tested to confirm that so caveat emptor. The knife-specific DPS bonuses in VKF go a long way towards making up for not using 2H weapons for 1.5x damage modifier; plus if you're SDK, you can use chain attacks in animal forms as long as you have a light weapon.

Apologies if the transition between the two build concepts wasn't clear.
 
H

Hobgoblin

Less Nerfy Nerfy more fixy fixy
Arkat said:
As a Wolf? Why?

My main attribute will be Wisdom, not Strength.

I also have a greatsword-using build already, so that's nothing new to play.
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sry man i didnt see that. its using natural fighting style but the thf weapon gives the extra stat to damage. it does look entirely different
 
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