How are the saving throws of monsters are calculated?

[citizen127]

I know how DC is calculated, but I can't find anything specific on how the saving throws of monsters are calculated? What's being compared to DC when a player casts a spell on a monster? I'm assuming their CR has something to do with it. Do they each have their own individual fortitude, reflex, and will stats or is it by type or sub-type? Is there any public data on specific values? Is there a reliable rule of thumb for player spell DC vs monster CR?

 

[wolfdy]

Prob based on D&D, meaning:
- Level (CR)
- Monster type (HIgh Ref Evasion archers etc)

But you should also consider that:
- Reaper inscreases their saves, speculated a -7 on CDs at R1
- Not all quests are made equal
- Level brackets (5, 7, 12, 15, 20+ etc)

Wiki might have "some" data, but its kinda dificult to determine if its up to date. And even if you have correct data, the reaper data is kept a secret by the Devs

Im rolling a Stormsinger atm with 55 (60 on Reaper) + Spell level at 20, was having almost 0 problem until i hit epics, now if i had to guess im failing 10-20% of the time.

From my experience, Ref seems to be the one more common on high values, Fort and Will seems bout the same, quite surprising how often "big guys" get stunned.

You usualy dont have to choose betwen CDs and spell power with casters so its quite straightforward, i dont play DC melee though.

 

[citizen127]

Thanks. Yeah, I've searched every corner of the wiki. I've done a more than reasonable amount of searching on the old forum too. It seems to me that some enhancements, spells, and enchantments are pretty worthless because the monsters at level are immune/override them. Spell resistance is a prime example. As far as I can tell, a player character needs at least two stacking sources of spell resistance for it to have a significant effect. From a role playing perspective, experienced adventurers would be able to find out if something is useless without having to resort to trial and error in middle of combat. As in "the word on the street is that Robert the Early Adopter though his newfangled "spell resistance" would protect him. It didn't, now they call him "Robert the Dead Fool"". That's a very expensive enchantment to invest in only to find that it's worthless in middle of a quest.

 

[wolfdy]

Yeah, theres a ton of information thats not readily available and some that inst avaiable at all.

I am no sage on how DDO works, but yes, there are plenty of "useless" or less than useful stuff around, and oh boy if only you could reset all of those bad choices like you can with enhancements and spells xD

I legit bailed out of a EK Wizard inquisitive life on 20, the lack of AoE was killing me, i literaly just exchanged 2 ranged feats for casters ones (1 free token from the quest and 1 from syberis dragonshards) changed enhancments, gear and speced into Caster EDs. My points beeing, EVEN if you grab bad stuff, you can still perform (almost) just as well, specialy if you're willing to drop from R1 to Elite or Hard.

3 Things that helped me a lot when i was deep into the "idk nothing bout how this game works" was:
- Asking around guilds (Specialy the well organized ones)
- Hiting my head against the wall trying and finding stuff out by trial and error
- And Strimtom lol. Might sound counterintuitive but his youtube channel and stream are a valuable source of knowledge, he 99% of the time defaults to giving you a knowledgeable answer instead of his opinion on most stuff, its a great place to ask stuff around. Just be aware of the social rules around streamers, he's pretty chill though.

 

[Palumtra]

One thing people tend to forget is that Evasion doesnt work when the subject is helpless (Hold Monster, Power Word Stun, Stun from Greater Shout,Greater Color Spray etc) meaning even if they make their reflex save they wil still take some damage (being helpless means +50% damage as well), and will saves are the lowest for enemies in general.
Also, gear matters. A lot. Look for gear that boosts your chosen school cd and your main stat.
Sharn, Isle of Dread, Saltmarsh sets and certain individual items can boost your DCs and damage considerably.
One of the many reasons of Blight Caster being popular right now is he fact that a lot of it's spells offer no saving throw, they just go boom.

 

[PurpleSerpent]

There isn't really much the wiki can do on this subject, because calculating the saves for a monster requires knowledge of its base stats, plus bonuses added by the difficulty, and Dungeon Alert - plus, this doesn't factor in other effects, such as buff spells or stat damage, that players or other monsters could apply in the middle of a fight. None of this information is directly available to us - we can only extrapolate based on observations - and as much as a fan of monsters as I may be, sitting around testing their save values is going too far even for me. (There's over 5000 of the things, for heaven's sake.)

If you're having trouble with DCs, though, it might be worth looking into spells that don't require them at all. Many "ray" and "bolt" direct damage spells (including many of the Blightcaster's DPS spells, as Palumtra notes above), don't allow a save against their damage. Failing this, try to focus on spells with a Reflex save component - generally, these still deal half damage on a save unless the monster has Evasion, which is mercifully rare, whereas successful Fortitude and Will saves tend to nullify the effect entirely.

 

[Theo]

Usually monsters have 1 save that is higher than the others, so it is good to know what saves your spell targets and if it fails switch to one that targets a different save. for example most archers have ridiculous reflex saves but low fort save so use spells that target fort on them

 

[CBDunk]

DDO started off fairly close to D&D v3.5, but has diverged significantly from there. That said, the v3.5 rules for saves can probably give some guidance for monsters up to level 20 and a general idea beyond that;

Poor saves = Trunc[Monster HD / 3, 0] (i.e. a 10 hit die monster would have a poor save of 3)
Good saves = 2 + Trunc[Monster HD / 2, 0]

These values are then modified by stat bonuses, feats, magical effects, et cetera just like player saves would be (e.g. high constitution adds to fortitude saves). Good saves vary by monster type;

Aberration	Will
Animal	Fort, Ref (and sometimes Will)
Construct	—
Dragon	Fort, Ref, Will
Elemental	Ref (Air, Fire), or Fort (Earth, Water)
Fey	Ref, Will
Giant	Fort
Humanoid	Varies (any one)
Magical beast	Fort, Ref
Monstrous humanoid	Ref, Will
Ooze	—
Outsider	Fort, Ref, Will
Plant	Fort
Undead	Will
Vermin	Fort

So, if you're fighting a pixie... something requiring a fortitude save is probably a good idea. Against a giant, not so much.

 

[citizen127]

DDO started off fairly close to D&D v3.5, but has diverged significantly from there. That said, the v3.5 rules for saves can probably give some guidance for monsters up to level 20 and a general idea beyond that;

Poor saves = Trunc[Monster HD / 3, 0] (i.e. a 10 hit die monster would have a poor save of 3)
Good saves = 2 + Trunc[Monster HD / 2, 0]

These values are then modified by stat bonuses, feats, magical effects, et cetera just like player saves would be (e.g. high constitution adds to fortitude saves). Good saves vary by monster type;

Aberration	Will
Animal	Fort, Ref (and sometimes Will)
Construct	—
Dragon	Fort, Ref, Will
Elemental	Ref (Air, Fire), or Fort (Earth, Water)
Fey	Ref, Will
Giant	Fort
Humanoid	Varies (any one)
Magical beast	Fort, Ref
Monstrous humanoid	Ref, Will
Ooze	—
Outsider	Fort, Ref, Will
Plant	Fort
Undead	Will
Vermin	Fort

So, if you're fighting a pixie... something requiring a fortitude save is probably a good idea. Against a giant, not so much.

Awesome, thanks. This isn't exactly what I was hoping for, but probably the best answer I'm ever going to get.