How do other MMOs handle balance in high-difficulty raiding?

[Dragxon]

Other MMOs have dps trackers and in some instance even have logging which is where every ability is tracked during the fight. This allows other MMOs to have better balance. If you look at WOW the difference between the best specs and worst specs is 10-15% dps difference on single target. Compare this to DDO where THF is over 50% behind in dps behind some other builds. But its not clear to many players that there is that large of a gap so they think their THF build is good to bring to raid. WOW also does a good job of making you want to bring each class because they have unique raid buffs that will boosts the raids DPS or survivability by 3% ish.

Also talking about how many different combinations there are DDO and saying you can't balance for it is absolutely BS because even with all those combinations if you want to do top tier dps right there's probably less 5 builds (+small variations) that are competitive right now. And the people that play those builds and know those builds understand why they are competitive and why other builds can't be.

Finally on balancing melee versus other specs the biggest reason to never bring melee to high reaper raids is because of boss cleave attacks. Suulo's autoattacks have something like a 270 degree arc for hitting and if he ever moves suddenly melee are in danger of being hit and at high reaper are in danger of being 1 shot. You can also look at all the dragon fights we have and the tail slam as being another case of something that a melee has to deal with while ranged just get to ignore. WOW only have bosses single target the tank for autoattacks and then they have abilities that are visually represented that can AOE. Another thing WOW does well is that these abilities can be applied to affect both melee and ranged such as swirlies that you need to dodge that are spread out over the whole arena. If this was applied to DDO then melee would be much more skill based to not get hit versus the more luck based that it currently is.

 

[Hireling]

I played Final Fantasy XI super hard core. My linkshell had a few "World's First".
End game in FFXI was broken into a few different activities.
I will only really speak about 75 level cap since that was when the game was it's biggest.
A standard party was 6 people in FFXI.
Some events were like speed runs up a dungeon with checkpoints. Nyzule Isle.
There were big Notorious Monsters that typically were fought by one alliance of 18. But some, you'd have 2 allies. One for the monster and one for adds. Vrtra comes to mind.
And there were these farming zones called dynamis where you'd farm currency for weapons, and new armor and currency to upgrade said new armor. Dynamis I think accepted 2 allies. Might have been more.
For balance:
Most melee DDs were pretty even-ish. Though some were bad due to armor restrictions.
Tanks could mainly be done by a few jobs, but some took more work/gear/skill than others.
They'd also have "phases" where a monster was immune to all DPS except certain types of damage. This forced more balanced alliances.
Also they'd have special fights that went better if you zerged. You'd perpetually stun the mega boss, and have everyone blow their job abilities and do as much damage as possible. If you didn't kill the mega boss in the 60 to 120 seconds, you usually lost.
On some events, there was a 3 day timer whether you won or lost. So wiping over and over again, wasn't really an option.
Oh and as far as ranged went, money was scarce and arrows, bolts and bullets were sort of expensive, but consumables created a nice crafting economy.
FFXI had a way bigger open world and economy.
DDO has the best build variety. And I personally love instanced dungeons.
It'd suck to TR and find out 5 other people TRd, so you have to wait on Korthos or the Harbor to "open up".

 

[Hireling]

Destiny 2 is the other "MMO" I played.
Missions were done in a group of 3.
Raids were groups of 6.
Destiny is a looter shooter.
Fun game.
They constantly re adjust weapons and job abilities and how they synergize for balance.

 

[Hireling]

Oh, I dabbled in FFXIV.
Really fun game. Great story. Fun dungeons and nice open world.
Absolutely zero build variety.
Almost all tanks/heals/dps feel the same.
So for a player like me, I do the new dungeons on my favorite tank (warrior or paladin) and heals (white mage) and DPS (Machinist or Dragoon).
Since I don't enjoy the raids on super duper hard mode and I don't really play it that much...I run out of content pretty fast.
I don't feel qualified to speak on how they balance.
But most dps are within 5% of each other. Some offer special buffs etc. Some jobs are easier to play than others. Or have a higher floor or lower ceiling.
By lacking build variety, I'd think it's easier to balance for than DDO.
But they do adjust abilities pretty often.

 

[Jasparius]

One thing about the build diversity in DDO that has always made me scratch my head . . . is have 10,000 class/race combinations worth a damn when 9,990 of them are crap.

In DDO there are only a few archetypes at a time that are "strong" . . . and it it's 10 I'm being generous.

Getting back to this: if people choose to play builds 10,000 different ways and most of them are substandard that is fine. But there should be at least a couple of different ways to play pure of each class which are competitive.

it shouldnt be that many classes really only shine with 5 levels of DL or 3 levels of Arty or 1 level of FVS/Warlock/Monk/etc.

When were pure bow builds last great? Or melee Ninja Spy? Great xbow Rogues? Warlocks seem great in low reaper but there are heaps of complaints about them in high reaper?

I dont actually know about Druid but are they solid in R8+?

 

[lilgeek]

Back when I played GW2 the accepted practice in some of the raids was for everyone to stand on the same pixel so that, for some magical reason, the boss's big attack didn't hurt anyone. But the flashes of light gave everyone seizures even if you didn't have epilepsy

 

[Hireling]

Getting back to this: if people choose to play builds 10,000 different ways and most of them are substandard that is fine. But there should be at least a couple of different ways to play pure of each class which are competitive.

it shouldnt be that many classes really only shine with 5 levels of DL or 3 levels of Arty or 1 level of FVS/Warlock/Monk/etc.

When were pure bow builds last great? Or melee Ninja Spy? Great xbow Rogues? Warlocks seem great in low reaper but there are heaps of complaints about them in high reaper?

I dont actually know about Druid but are they solid in R8+?

I'd also add universal trees that play nothing like what the base class is.
Except...just because I like or dislike something doesn't mean others shouldn't be able to do that.
I've always preferred SORC played as a WF self healing tank. Or WIZ that CCs with spells and cleans up with EK stuff.
I've never had problems with Vistani Divines, but for some reason Inquisitor Divines or Arcanes bother me.
And after thinking about it...it's because I prefer melee over ranged style. Or I am just being a hipster with "I liked repeater arties before they were cool!"
Also, as much as I don't like 18xxx/1xxx/1xxx because it gives trances and Arcane warrior or monk stances...
The biggest thing DDO has going for it is build variety.
So just because I don't like it, doesn't mean it should go away.

 

[Teh_Troll]

So just because I don't like it, doesn't mean it should go away.

Correct.

It should go away if I don't like it

Jokes aside the rest of your post is spot on. Does "Divines with Machine Guns" really feel like Dungeons and Dragons?

 

[IanMoon8]

Does "Divines with Machine Guns" really feel like Dungeons and Dragons?

This game hasn't "felt like" dungeons and dragons since the level cap was 20. It just gets less and less DnD-like with each epic level.

 

[Hireling]

I do keep seeing people say that 2 Hand Fighting builds do about half the damage as a SWF or TWF build.
I've always heard and agreed that THF for leveling and TWF and SWF for cap due to using bluff and CC more at Cap for higher skulls and raids...
But I didn't know it was roughly a 50% difference.
Is this true?

 

[Hireling]

Correct.

It should go away if I don't like it

Jokes aside the rest of your post is spot on. Does "Divines with Machine Guns" really feel like Dungeons and Dragons?

I don't think it does.
Arti or Rogue with X-Bows seemed more thematically "correct" to me. Or maybe even a Xbow specced Fighter. Or a drow dual wielding little and crossbows (ranger dual wield?)

 

[Ying]

When were pure bow builds last great? Or melee Ninja Spy? Great xbow Rogues? Warlocks seem great in low reaper but there are heaps of complaints about them in high reaper?

Bow builds were fine until Hunt's End was changed with the U66 ED revamp.

Ninja Spy melee have never been a thing. Handwraps have always been better than any two weapons NS could use.

Great Crossbow Rogue 18/Artificer 2 were a thing when Baba was current content.

Warlocks fall behind Sorcs an Alchs for nuking. They only come out ahead in long raid boss fights where other nukers run out of mana. But that's like 0.1% of the population that will do content like that, and they'll just drink mana potions on their Sorc/Alch.

 

[IanMoon8]

Can you imagine what the game would be like if instead of generic "epic" and "legendary" levels, we just got that many more class levels? But classes still max out at 20, so 21+ you have to multi-class.

Imagine being 20 wizard 14 fighter today. Or 11/11/12 three class split. Or 20 rogue/7 artificer/7wizard for imbues. The possibilities are endless.

One things for sure, it'd be more interesting.

 

[Jasparius]

Bow builds were fine until Hunt's End was changed with the U66 ED revamp.

Ninja Spy melee have never been a thing. Handwraps have always been better than any two weapons NS could use.

Great Crossbow Rogue 18/Artificer 2 were a thing when Baba was current content.

Warlocks fall behind Sorcs an Alchs for nuking. They only come out ahead in long raid boss fights where other nukers run out of mana. But that's like 0.1% of the population that will do content like that, and they'll just drink mana potions on their Sorc/Alch.

So melee Ninja Spy and pure Rogue Mechanic (with great xbow) have never been a thing... meaning Turbine / SSG release things without caring that no-one seriously will play them.

So the DOV great xbow I picked up the other day will likely just get fed because I would be better off with a level 29 dungeon heavy xbow and Inquis.

But bows are only recently poor meaning they could probably undo the damage they did (or is it more that light/heavy xbow got such a huge buff they left bows in their dust?).

 

[Phaedra]

But bows are only recently poor meaning they could probably undo the damage they did (or is it more that light/heavy xbow got such a huge buff they left bows in their dust?).

I mean, bows were also terrible between the death of monkchers (U14?) and ~U43 so...

Rogue GXB is bad because the tree needs a serious revamp. I'd turn the alchemic trap attacks (tanglefoot, thunderstone, ooze) and time bomb into ranged AoE attacks, and that would make a huge difference. Then make lacerating shots an imbue so it scales with +imbue dice, and fix hip flask. Maybe give them Endless Fusillade, or better yet a passive "improved rapid reload" to cut the reload time by 33-50% again, so that it doesn't peak the server when activated, but feels better all the time.

 

[Nahual]

I think DDO's main problem in design and balance is passive past life bonuses. I add 3 active reaper trees to that.

You always get them, there is no choice to be made to become stronger. There is no cost of oppotunity. Imagen if you could only get 15 past lives bonuses.

Which would you go for?

 

[Jasparius]

I think DDO's main problem in design and balance is passive past life bonuses. I add 3 active reaper trees to that.

You always get them, there is no choice to be made to become stronger. There is no cost of oppotunity. Imagen if you could only get 15 past lives bonuses.

Which would you go for?

Would be a fun choice. Assume melee would be +hit +dam, ranged + ranged dam. But imagine if you couldnt get 9 dex and 6 con and 7 int and all the other stuff...

We already toggle active epic and iconic past life bonuses so toggles for heroic and racial isnt far fetched.

That said, people who spent 5 or 10 years either legitimately getting their lives, exploiting their lives or duping their lives wouldnt be happy and would be threatening to quit - though probably wouldnt.

 

[Hireling]

I think DDO's main problem in design and balance is passive past life bonuses. I add 3 active reaper trees to that.

You always get them, there is no choice to be made to become stronger. There is no cost of oppotunity. Imagen if you could only get 15 past lives bonuses.

Which would you go for?

Depends on "final build".
Like say a ranged arti...
I'd want 3 ranger PLs, 3 Arti for INT skills and UMD. 3 fighter for 3 attk and +3 to my Trip etc etc...
If sorc...you may want 3 sorc PLs, but let's say you were an Acid Sorc...you'd want 3 Cleric.
This depth is why DDO is so special.
I mean heck, I struggle with which ACTIVE EPLs I want to use. An example...on a Freezy Swashchanter, I will use Double Attack, but swap to the Tactics if I was only CCer or the most reliable CCer, like undead are wimpy against the freeze move.

 

[Lominal]

To go back to the original question, most of the other mmo's I've played got around the melee in a few diff ways:
1. Giving melees extremely high mobility (think both monk leaps + dire charge on different cd's if dire charge wasn't garbage at finding the target and locking you up for 3s ) at no cost as part every melee kit.
2. Giving melees massive (think +100 prr +100 mrr, letting them ignore mrr cap) defences over ranged for free, as part of the base kit (like old EDF)
3. Any aoe boss attacks are super telegraphed, and are often only 1-2/minute. often the boss will go invulnerable during them
4. Locking unique, extremely strong debuffs behind melee classes/styles/weapons (think on par with dust, vuln)

 

[Ying]

But bows are only recently poor meaning they could probably undo the damage they did (or is it more that light/heavy xbow got such a huge buff they left bows in their dust?).

There's no going back to the way things were. There's only moving forward. Bows had a moment, and it's gone for now.