How would you buff/rework monks?

[TeamScorpioRI]

Seems the monk forum is getting no love, so lets start some discussions. We all know monks need a rework. The devs admitted that they want to do a monk pass in the future. Lets throw out some ideas that us monk players would like to see! There is a good discussion about this in general chat, but I thought we could start something here. Here is my list:

- Light Monk Buffs: The duration of these need to be increased as the monk levels. Some of the monk buffs are very nice (blur, reduction in spell point cost, stun immunity) but they need to last longer at end game. Add 30 second per monk level to the buff (similar to spells). With this in mind, I would also reduce the benefit if the spell point cost reduction from 25% to 10%. I would also modify the fire finisher to also add +2 to damage as well as attack
- @FaustianBargain made a good point in general. Add some imbue damage to the other monk trees, like Henshin has (fire). Shintao would get law or light, Ninja Spy could get negative/cold. Increase the imbue die with core enhancements (benefiting pure monks)
- Re-examine the monk specific feats Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, and Perfect Self. I would add the DR from Perfect self to diamond body, MRR increase to diamond soul (your prr/mrr cap increases as if you were wearing light armor), and Perfect Self... no idea.. Is being a lawful outsider that useful? I think if the above changes were made, Perfect Self could become something like "You obtain perfect enlightenment. You no longer get uncentered from level drain. +1 imbue die and passive ki regeneration".

I would also like to see them do a monk Archtype as well. Drunken Master is an obvious choice (various bonuses for drinking potions??). I'd love to see something like a "Mystic Monk", which would build on the mechanics of the sacred fist spells but expanded a bit, that takes on a type of caster monk build. There could be a case to make for a Samurai as well. Monks that are able to wear medium armor and fight with bladed weapons (similar to kensai tree).

Thoughts? Add to the list

 

[FaustianBargain]

Diamond Soul should track with character level vs monk level. You could use a similar calculation as for sorc or FVS spell point bonuses if there are any random hybrid builds with more than 13 levels of monk but less than 20 - you’d get (monk levels/20) * character level to figure the actual bonus. Again rewards pure monks and prevents some sort of edge case gaming of the class to get something unbalancing.

I like some ability to extend the ki finisher effects (I have memories of running around like a crack addled hamster in Tower of Despair pre-MOTU throwing earth light earth finishers to block stun) but 30 seconds per level might be too long for what can be fairly powerful effects. Being able to stretch them out to 4 or 5 minutes would be pretty nice though.

I had thought of something similar on how to increase MRR cap in particular but really like the linkage to existing granted feats. Instead of throwing it all into a single granted feat it could be a smaller increase to the cap with each AC bonus that ultimately amounts to the same thing. Given what the Shintao class represents it wouldn’t be out of place or overpowered to add an amount of PRR and MRR per point spent in the tree and to add MRR in with the PRR you gain in Iron Skin.

Drunken master would be awesome as an archetype. There’s already a model in several classes for gaining something that’s not a potion when you drink. Add a breath weapon that progressively adds more effects to the victim. Hip Flask from Mechanic (different stats boosted obviously) could be a good capstone model. Give the tree the ability to use Con to hit and damage - thematically you have to be very sturdy for your liver to hold up until level 20. This becomes a bit more of a tank or off tank with hate increase from mountain stance and the additional defenses discussed above.

 

[Careall]

I have just been playing around with a Trailblazer Henshin Mystic - a relatively pure Wis-based build. It is amazing solo and supports groups well with a lot of cc and backup healing, but it has some critical weaknesses.

• No easy way to protect from Magic Missiles. I soloed a few quests and rocked everything. Then, a few casters tossing Magic Missiles just took the build down quickly. To resolve this, I took Magical Training and Feydark Tree for You've Got My Back and more saves. UMD would be another way to go; or farm clickies.
• Not great against Reapers (at least, maybe not until 18). All the CC the build has is worthless against Reapers, and it doesn't naturally have a high DPS. Right out of the box, the build wins using CC, not DPS. Again, farming and some tweaks might resolve this issue, but I'm not sure how viable the Trailblazer Henshin Mystic is against Reapers.

Given these, I don't know that there's a convincing argument that would sell the idea this build doesn't work. It does. Magic Missiles have always been challenging for non-caster classes to overcome, and monks are no different. Reaper is supposed to be difficult. If this build gets a decent Reaper response, the build would be OP.

Talk about saves? This build started testing by running LoD on Elite; so - a level 15 toon in a level 18 quest. To test the saves, I stood in the traps. Except when rolling a 1, I wasn't getting hit. When I did get hit, the damage was enough to make me nervous about standing there but not enough to kill the toon quickly (except maybe a streak of bad rolls). That's a pretty decent trade-off for some of the disadvantages listed above. Those disadvantages can be compensated for. Standing in traps is a bit difficult to farm, and even splashing a rogue or monk won't get Improved Evasion.

I would like to see Monks get a bit more love, but I think the SF hits a few of the points you're looking for, and it would be a hard sell that a new monk tree or adjustments that mirror SF features are needed.
Yes. The other monk trees need imbues, or maybe the Monk class could get an automatic Lawful imbue, then the Henshin Mystic toggle would change that to fire, and a Ninja Spy toggle could change it to negative.

Drunken Master is a good idea, but that probably should be a Fighter Archetype and either make Chaotic alignment required or at least Not Lawful. To flip that around - yeah - a Samurai Monk Archetype could be a themed fighter-style monk requiring a Lawful alignment and allowed to wear medium armor, with a Tier 5 option to allow heavy armor.

 

[FaustianBargain]

I have just been playing around with a Trailblazer Henshin Mystic - a relatively pure Wis-based build. It is amazing solo and supports groups well with a lot of cc and backup healing, but it has some critical weaknesses.

• No easy way to protect from Magic Missiles. I soloed a few quests and rocked everything. Then, a few casters tossing Magic Missiles just took the build down quickly. To resolve this, I took Magical Training and Feydark Tree for You've Got My Back and more saves. UMD would be another way to go; or farm clickies.
• Not great against Reapers (at least, maybe not until 18). All the CC the build has is worthless against Reapers, and it doesn't naturally have a high DPS. Right out of the box, the build wins using CC, not DPS. Again, farming and some tweaks might resolve this issue, but I'm not sure how viable the Trailblazer Henshin Mystic is against Reapers.

Given these, I don't know that there's a convincing argument that would sell the idea this build doesn't work. It does. Magic Missiles have always been challenging for non-caster classes to overcome, and monks are no different. Reaper is supposed to be difficult. If this build gets a decent Reaper response, the build would be OP.

Talk about saves? This build started testing by running LoD on Elite; so - a level 15 toon in a level 18 quest. To test the saves, I stood in the traps. Except when rolling a 1, I wasn't getting hit. When I did get hit, the damage was enough to make me nervous about standing there but not enough to kill the toon quickly (except maybe a streak of bad rolls). That's a pretty decent trade-off for some of the disadvantages listed above. Those disadvantages can be compensated for. Standing in traps is a bit difficult to farm, and even splashing a rogue or monk won't get Improved Evasion.

I would like to see Monks get a bit more love, but I think the SF hits a few of the points you're looking for, and it would be a hard sell that a new monk tree or adjustments that mirror SF features are needed.
Yes. The other monk trees need imbues, or maybe the Monk class could get an automatic Lawful imbue, then the Henshin Mystic toggle would change that to fire, and a Ninja Spy toggle could change it to negative.

Drunken Master is a good idea, but that probably should be a Fighter Archetype and either make Chaotic alignment required or at least Not Lawful. To flip that around - yeah - a Samurai Monk Archetype could be a themed fighter-style monk requiring a Lawful alignment and allowed to wear medium armor, with a Tier 5 option to allow heavy armor.

On CC, I’ve never tested this, but does Tomb of Jade work on quarterstaff attacks and the strike through hits? That could be a solution although it’s a big investment into Shintao that you might not want to/be able to make. I know when I’ve run punchy monk lives Tomb of Jade is pretty much no fail on reapers.

I’d go clicky all the way on shield vs the APs in Feydark.

 

[Nickodeamous]

Hey all,

Here are my thoughts on Monk updates. There is some room for improvement for sure.

1. Buff Quivering palm DC. it was disproportionately hit during the stat squish. Change it from (DC 10 + monk level/2 + Wisdom modifier) to (DC 10 + monk level + Wisdom modifier)
2. Bring back our weapon damage from heroics. Add back the 2.5W that was taken away. Handwrap monks need this in heroics.
3. add +10-20 MRR cap in the capstone. It ain't much for anybody else, but +10-20 MRR cap for a monk is huge
4. Fix the finishing moves so they don't go away when you hit an element that doesn't match
   1. Make Finishers 25 ki without having to build them...so instant finishers
5. add some whirlwind cleaves in shintao. (like SF)
6. strikethrough with kicks (see cleaves)...why not, I mean we get strikethrough with staffs...so...what's the difference?
7. monks should be stealthy, and thus should have more SA die in the tree
8. give us glowing fists already!!!
9. Nunchucks

Thanks!
Nico

 

[Xrezz]

Would love to see some sort of Astral fist monk from 5e. Could reuse the animation from shadowdancer's epic strike that increases your range.

 

[misterski]

Strikethrough with kicks (see cleaves)...why not, I mean we get strikethrough with staffs...so...what's the difference?

Quarterstaves are 2-handed weapons, handwraps are dual wielding, that's the difference. Would be nice to add something like Tempest's Dance of Death, though.

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

Hey all,

Here are my thoughts on Monk updates. There is some room for improvement for sure.

1. Buff Quivering palm DC. it was disproportionately hit during the stat squish. Change it from (DC 10 + monk level/2 + Wisdom modifier) to (DC 10 + monk level + Wisdom modifier)
2. Bring back our weapon damage from heroics. Add back the 2.5W that was taken away. Handwrap monks need this in heroics.
3. add +10-20 MRR cap in the capstone. It ain't much for anybody else, but +10-20 MRR cap for a monk is huge
4. Fix the finishing moves so they don't go away when you hit an element that doesn't match
   1. Make Finishers 25 ki without having to build them...so instant finishers
5. add some whirlwind cleaves in shintao. (like SF)
6. strikethrough with kicks (see cleaves)...why not, I mean we get strikethrough with staffs...so...what's the difference?
7. monks should be stealthy, and thus should have more SA die in the tree
8. give us glowing fists already!!!
9. Nunchucks

Thanks!
Nico

I definitely agree that the weapon damage for HW needs to come back. I also agree with upping the MRR cap, but I think I'd prefer that in the feats rather than the capstone of a specific tree. I'd put it into diamond body (prr) and soul (mrr). This way all monks benefit. The alternative would be to maybe add the increase to perfect self at level 20. Though I would make it so the MRR cap is doubled (50 to 100) as if monk are wearing light armor (seeing as sorcs/wiz get feats to allow them to wear medium armor, I don't see that as game breaking)

While instant finishers would be nice, I kind of like having all the finishers tied to one button. That just may be my playstyle and how I have things set up with my keyboard/mouse (a good multi-button mouse is a BIG help when playing a monk).

Agree that I want the damn glowing fists!!!! This would be a cool addition to the capstone (Shintao glows white, Ninja Spy glows purple, Henshin glows red). Nunchucks would be awesome as well, but that is alot of animation work (I believe the devs are mainly against adding new weapon types to the game for this reason)

Keep them coming!! I love this discussion

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

Would love to see some sort of Astral fist monk from 5e. Could reuse the animation from shadowdancer's epic strike that increases your range.

That could be interesting. I'm not familiar with the Astral Fist Monk.

 

[cdbd3rd]

I know some folks enjoy the button-sequencing routine to get to Monk's special attacks, but I'm not one of them. I dislike having to learn a bunch of old Xbox cheat code combos to make attacks, so I would like to see that done away with. (I know, won't happen.)

Other than that, I like the rest of Nick's ideas above.

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

I know some folks enjoy the button-sequencing routine to get to Monk's special attacks, but I'm not one of them. I dislike having to learn a bunch of old Xbox cheat code combos to make attacks, so I would like to see that done away with. (I know, won't happen.)

Other than that, I like the rest of Nick's ideas above.

I get this.. Set up and Ki mapping is the key to making this easy. Here is how I set up my keys for easy button mashing.

I have one hot bar for my Ki Strikes and stunning fist. This bar is mapped to the number keys (1 to 0). Key number 1 is always my stunning fist, key 0 is always my finisher. This comes into play later.

Key 2 = Light attack (this being right over the W key makes it easy to hit)
Key 3 through 5 = elemental strikes. (I only use the highest level I have at the moment)
Key 6 through 9 + various other attacks that don't get used as much, but still needed as a quick button. Weapon swaps are a good option here.

I then have Key 1 mapped to a side button on my mouse, and Key 0 mapped to a 2nd side button (I have one of those logitech mouses with 12 buttons on the side, but I have done this with a typical mouse with 2 side buttons)

So to perform one of my finishers, its as easy as hitting 3-2-3, or 4-2-4, or 5-2-5, and then hitting my side mouse button to trigger the finisher. This makes the combos easy, I don't have to move the mouse around much to click a bunch of bars, and allows me to fire off combos easily.

Getting the keys set right so you are not clicking a bunch of bars is HUGE for this game, but especially playing a monk. The Logitech G600 opened up a lot for me in this aspect. Beyond the above set up, I have the side keys mapped to whirwind attack, drifting lotus, Tomb of Jade, Jade Strike, Lay on Hands (aasimir), falconry trance, EIN, and more. Having all these right at my thumb makes gameplay easy, at least for me.

To be fair... I have been playing the monk for a VERY long time, so a lot of the combos are 2nd nature by now.

 

[Bjond]

I loved playing monks in PnP and other D&D CRPGs, but not in DDO. The reason I don't play DDO monks is because you can get more DPS, Defense, and Utility out of a L3 Rogue splash than in 20 levels of monk. When I want a character that feels like a monk, I don't play a monk in DDO. I build a hybrid with L3 monk and the rest in just about anything but monk.

As an example, to put monk on par with rogue, you'd have to eliminate the alignment restrictions (eg. add drunken monk for non-law), increase all types of monk dps -- more base or decent critical profile (by L6 not L20), update WIS for AC to match the rest of DDO (ie. make it WIS for AC + PRR + MRR), remove MRR caps by armor-type, and put some kind of utility in there besides run-speed -- eg. single-tag on-hit effects that make a difference, not triple-tags that don't matter because they're too slow or too small or both (which devolves to only using light+light+light).

BTW, I'm not arguing that monks should be cloth-rogues or that they should be trappers, but rather that if they're not going to have all those extras, their DPS should be both higher and obtainable at a lower level.

The MRR cap issue is especially annoying, since real D&D monks are BETTER at tanking magic than armored tanks due to saves & SR. That DDO monks quiver in fear of magic is just so thematically WRONG.

 

[Arkat]

Hey all,

Here are my thoughts on Monk updates. There is some room for improvement for sure.

1. Buff Quivering palm DC. it was disproportionately hit during the stat squish. Change it from (DC 10 + monk level/2 + Wisdom modifier) to (DC 10 + monk level + Wisdom modifier)
2. Bring back our weapon damage from heroics. Add back the 2.5W that was taken away. Handwrap monks need this in heroics.
3. add +10-20 MRR cap in the capstone. It ain't much for anybody else, but +10-20 MRR cap for a monk is huge
4. Fix the finishing moves so they don't go away when you hit an element that doesn't match
   1. Make Finishers 25 ki without having to build them...so instant finishers
5. add some whirlwind cleaves in shintao. (like SF)
6. strikethrough with kicks (see cleaves)...why not, I mean we get strikethrough with staffs...so...what's the difference?
7. monks should be stealthy, and thus should have more SA die in the tree
8. give us glowing fists already!!!
9. Nunchucks

Thanks!
Nico

Lots of good stuff here Nick.

Quivering Palm definitely needs a buff. My Monk's QP DC is currently sitting at 76 while his Stunning Fist DC is 117 and his EIN DC is sitting at 111. QP should be MUCH closer to those DCs.

That missing 2.5 W was a bigger loss than I think the Devs realized. I agree we need that back.

I'm ok with where we can get our MRR cap now. I can get to 130 on a Ninja Spy and a 125 on my Shintao Monk. I think we're in a good MRR cap place.

The Finishing Moves could be a bit more flexible with other actions that could be taken once they're charged up for sure. I'm not a big fan of instant finishers, though. I like the idea of charging them up. They make Monk more involved to play than say a Barb or Fighter.

You can always take Whirlwind attack, but that, of course, takes an inordinate # of feats. Other classes/enhancements/EDs get nice AoE physical attacks much more easily. I think it would be helpful in Monks could get one, too.

Strikethrough with your Unarmed Strike (kicks) would be nice. Reduce the chance of a strikethrough, sure (not every Unarmed Strike is a kick, after all). But don't reduce the # of targets you can affect.

Sneak Dice could maybe be increased for a Ninja Spy. Not so sure about for Shintao Monks.

Here's some glowing fists for you:

Just make a Fetters of the Forgewraith Handwraps cosmetic and put them in a cosmetic weapon slot.

Nunchucks, huh? Why not? Not sure what they add, though, besides some cool looks?

 

[Monkey_Archer]

IMO monks definitely do not need any major buffs. They are one of the stronger melee classes right now if played well.

That said, I would like to see a few minor things:

• Scale elemental ki strikes with imbue dice. A small dps buff for all monks who bother using these.
• Change finishers to 2 button combos and fix the cooldown bug where the monk completely stops attacking and loses the finisher if they try to activate it again before its off timer.
• Somehow decouple monks from capstones and falconry. Virtually all monk builds end up as 41 points in main tree, 23+ falconry and 8 vistani for haste boost, leaving no room for customization. I don't know exactly how to do this though...

 

[Monkey_Archer]

RE: qp

If this ability had a working dc it would need a much longer cooldown. 6 second no fail would be insanely strong.

 

[Lotoc]

It'd help if people stopped being so fixated on that 2.5w honestly, an average of 7 damage (12.5 on a raid weapon) is not the make or break you think it is and the truth is handwraps have so many mechanical advantages over other TWF styles it's baffling they can be considered bad.
Truth is as much as people complain about Ninja Spy being bad Shintao is probably the worst monk tree if you're aiming for dps.
It's wrapped up in trying to be a tank tree and a CC focused tree so much the tree is simply lacking in damage.
Another factor is monk stances,
Ocean stance if you're trying to be a dps is trash. Wisdom based if you're trying to be a dps is undertuned due to raid filigrees being awful for it.

 

[Arkat]

RE: qp

If this ability had a working dc it would need a much longer cooldown. 6 second no fail would be insanely strong.

NOBODY is suggesting no-fail DCs.

It's a FORT save so you'd need to be up around a 125-130 DC for that.

A 110 DC wouldn't even be a no-fail for caster targets.

I'd say a buff to be able to reach target DC of 100-110 would be a reasonable thing to ask for.

A 76 DC is clearly a joke.

Obviously, I'm talking about DCs for high skull (8-10 skulls) content.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

I'd say a buff to be able to reach target DC of 100-110 would be a reasonable thing to ask for.

A 76 DC is clearly a joke.

10 Base
10 monk level/2
44 wisdom (98)
22 trance
3 past life fighter
3 LD
2 tactician
6 ancient tactics
2 aasimar
4 scion
--
106

 

[Arkat]

22 trance

Excuse me?

 

[Zuldar]

• Somehow decouple monks from capstones and falconry. Virtually all monk builds end up as 41 points in main tree, 23+ falconry and 8 vistani for haste boost, leaving no room for customization. I don't know exactly how to do this though...

Make meditation a wis trance with a small healing over time applied to it from wholeness of body. Than get rid of the limited uses and just have it cost Ki. Than change wind stance from a non-stacking bonus to an action boost bonus, that would make it extremely competitive with ocean and fire stance which are by far better than wind currently.