Hypothetical Ninja Spy Cleanup

[DaWiner]

Hello everyone!

Ninja spy is a weird tree. It pretends to be a melee or shuriken tree, but in reality it is only a shuriken thrower tree. A melee build using this tree as the main tree would be the worst build in the game. In addition, shuriken users cannot use any of the monk ki attacks, which makes a significant portion of the tree unusable (though those enhancements were bad to begin with).

Since I'm bored, I decided to create a hypothetical revamp of this tree so that it could be a viable melee and ranged tree. However, I found that it was nearly impossible to make melee viable without making shuriken throwers completely OP (shuriken throwers are arguably OP already). So, I decided to make a completely separate (hypothetical) tree that would use melee weapons, which then led to a hypothetical archetype (since that's the only way a new tree would be added). But in order for that tree and this tree to not overlap, I want to remove the pretense of melee functionality in Ninja Spy. Therefore, I created this 'cleanup' of the Ninja spy tree, which removes any abilities that shuriken users cannot use, and clearly states that this tree is a shuriken only tree.

To be clear, this is not a rework of the existing shuriken thrower. This only removes melee functionality from ninja spy. The only two exceptions are:

• Removing 25% HP from tier 5 (as this is no longer a melee tree)
• Slight nerf to sting of the ninja (as it is very, very good)

The proposed tree has a ton of clutter removed, and it is so much easier to read + understand what this tree really does. I also removed some useless abilities and added one that I felt was a little more interesting.

Here's the proposed tree (changes in blue):

Cores

1. Ninja Training: While you are centered, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit
2. Advanced Ninja Training: While you are centered, you can use your dexterity modifier for damage. You also gain doubleshot equal to your Dexterity score while wielding a shuriken.
3. Shadow Veil: Ki Activate: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you. You become invisible and 25% incorporeal for one minute. Actions that break invisibility do not remove the incorporeality portion of this effect. (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 6 seconds).
4. Ninja Dust: Ki Activate: You throw ninja dust on the ground, and seemingly disappear into thin air. You immediately tumble backwards twice. You turn invisible, gain 25% concealment, and gain the ability to tumble through enemies for 12 seconds. All enemies you pass through while tumbling are confused for 6 seconds. Ki Cost: 10 Cooldown: 60 seconds.
5. Sharp Stars: Your shuriken gain a +1 Competence bonus to your Critical Multiplier.
6. Ninja Master: You gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, +5 Sneak Attack Dice, and +1 passive ki regeneration

Tier 1:

• (AP: 1, Ranks: 1): Shuriken Training: +1 to Hit and Damage with shuriken
• (AP: 1, Ranks: 3): Stealthy: +1/+2/+3 Hide and Move Silently. +20%/+35%/+50% movement speed while sneaking. Rank 3: While centered and Sneaking, your passive ki regeneration is increased by 1.
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Sneak Attack Training: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks.
• EMPTY
• (AP: 1, Ranks: 3): Acrobatic: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, and Tumble. +1%/+2%/+3% Dodge.

Tier 2:

• (AP: 1, Ranks: 1): Shuriken Training: +1 to Hit and +2 to Damage with shuriken
• (AP: 1, Ranks: 3): Agility: +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Reflex Saves, and Maximum Dodge bonus.
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Sneak Attack Training: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks.
• EMPTY
• (AP: 1, Ranks: 3): Action Boost: Melee/Ranged Power: [+10/+20/+30] Action Boost bonus to Melee/Ranged Power for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

Tier 3:

• (AP: 1, Ranks: 1): Shuriken Training: +1 to Hit and Damage with shuriken
• EMPTY
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Sneak Attack Training: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks.
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Sting of the Ninja: Imbue Toggle: You poison your shuriken with a secret mixture. While you wield a shuriken, you deal an additional 1d6 Poison damage on hit scaling with 100% Ranged Power, and shuriken you wield will inflict your foes with a stack of Ninja Poison on critical hits. (Magical Poison: Target takes 1d4 points of Poison damage every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. The target’s vulnerability to poison is increased by 3%. This ability can stack up to 20 times. On timer expiration, 5 stacks of Ninja Poison are removed at a time.)
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Dexterity or Wisdom

Tier 4:

• (AP: 1, Ranks: 1): Shuriken Training: +1 to Hit and +2 to Damage with shuriken
• EMPTY
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Sneak Attack Training: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks.
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 3): No Mercy: You deal 10%/20%/30% additional damage to helpless opponents.
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Dexterity or Wisdom

Tier 5:

• (AP: 1, Ranks: 1): Shuriken Mastery: +3 to Hit and Damage with shuriken
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Deadly Striker: Shuriken gain +2 to critical threat range
• EMPTY
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Calm Mind: Gain +10 MRR and +10 MRR cap
• (AP: 2, Ranks: 1): Elusiveness: Anytime you get hit by a melee or ranged attack, gain +6% Dodge and Dodge cap for 6 seconds

Some closing notes:

• There's 5 empty spots in this tree. I did not want to make throwers any better, so I felt no need to fill those spaces in. Either the new enhancements would be bad, and only add more clutter to the tree, or they would be good, and throwers do not need to be any better than they are right now.
• If you wanted to keep diversion in core 5, go ahead. Last I had heard, the sneak attack die from that ability didn't even work, so there was no real reason to use it.

And that's it! Like I said, this is only so I can make a different hypothetical tree, so go read that one!

 

[Dandonk]

Nice... but can it climb ladders?

Seriously, though, NS needs a revamp for sure.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Last I had heard, the sneak attack die from that ability didn't even work, so there was no real reason to use it.

This sentence show clearly that you don't play as shuri-monk at least some last years. This bug fixed long time ago. You need actualize your incorrect knowledge with some practice... 3-4 PL must be enough... In current state all your suggestion do, just give +3 Attack and +1 Damage as offence and+ 5 to MRR/MRR cap as defense if compete with current hybrid NiS tree and remove some crucial enhancements, like Flash Bang, provide Blind as source for SA, Crippling Strike for +3 Assassination DC, or Self Defense for 25% Competence HP (your worst suggestion). You also suggest reduce Ninja Poison Vulnerability to 3% per stack instead 5%... for Poison imbue and damage... to which about 50% mobs in game already immune/resist? Seriously?!!

Please, don't suggest more to NiS before you really play as NiS monk some life.

Seriously, though, NS needs a revamp for sure.

Surely (and i don't call you Shirley! ), but clearly not so lame way this guy suggest. I hope for +4 Dex for capstone at least... not for this abomination... 8)

 

[DaWiner]

This sentence show clearly that you don't play as shuri-monk at least some last years. This bug fixed long time ago. You need actualize your incorrect knowledge with some practice... 3-4 PL must be enough... In current state all your suggestion do, just give +3 Attack and +1 Damage as offence and+ 5 to MRR/MRR cap as defense if compete with current hybrid NiS tree and remove some crucial enhancements, like Flash Bang, provide Blind as source for SA, Crippling Strike for +3 Assassination DC, or Self Defense for 25% Competence HP (your worst suggestion). You also suggest reduce Ninja Poison Vulnerability to 3% per stack instead 5%... for Poison imbue and damage... to which about 50% mobs in game already immune/resist? Seriously?!!

Please, don't suggest more to NiS before you really play as NiS monk some life.



Surely (and i don't call you Shirley! ), but clearly not so lame way this guy suggest. I hope for +4 Dex for capstone at least... not for this abomination... 8)

I'll address the rest of these criticisms one at a time

• True, I haven't played shuri-monk in many years. If diversion is fixed, then leave it where it is. I appreciate having the updated information.
  • That being said, I find it a little ridiculous that I would have to dedicate 3-4 PLs worth of time in order to have an opinion on the tree. That's a heavy time investment, when I can get a good glimpse of what this tree would do simply because I have spent a lot of time making characters. Are there nuances I miss? Sure, we just saw it. But that's what the comments are for, so that the people can give their input who may know more about certain things than I do. Not even the devs put out a new tree without passing it by the players first.
• I didn't think flashbang was used, and as a result the assassinate DCs would have been useless. If those abilities are actually used by shuri-monk, then leave them in. We can place them into the empty spaces in tier 3 and 5, right where they were removed from.
• Not sure where the +3 attack and +1 damage is coming from. (note that I did edit t2 and t4 shuriken training to match what current ninja spy does, since I had made a typo. They now give +2 to damage instead of +1)
  • Is it because of the tier 5 shuriken mastery? The wiki says that the current enhancement, touch of death, gives +3 to hit and damage with centered weapons that arent Qstaff/wraps. Is the wiki incorrect?
• I strongly believe that, if this tree were to be a ranged tree only, this should not have +25% competence bonus to hit points. No other ranged tree has any competence bonus to hit points, nevermind the highest bonus in the game. I increased the MRR/MRR cap and added the elusiveness enhancement to offset it somewhat. It is certainly a net loss in survivability, but the tree never should have allowed throwers to get the bonus HP to begin with.
• Having heard feedback from others who have played shuri-monk, and having seen the power of shuri-monk myself, I, and others, believed that sting of the ninja was too powerful. I felt the nerf from 5% vulnerability per stack down to 3% vulnerability per stack was fair, given no other damaging abilities in the tree were touched. This change is not even close to some of the heavy-handed nerfs we've seen to other enhancements/builds in the past. But, if this is incorrect, then we can leave it the way it was.

Also, you suggest adding +4 dex to the capstone. Do you believe that shuri-monk needs to be buffed? I haven't heard that opinion before, so I am curious why you think that.

 

[Buddha5440]

Nice... but can it climb ladders?
...

Doubtful... and it won't fix your Monster Manual either.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

I didn't think flashbang was used, and as a result the assassinate DCs would have been useless. If those abilities are actually used by shuri-monk, then leave them in. We can place them into the empty spaces in tier 3 and 5, right where they were removed from.

Didn't used if you go to heavy split for Ranger because then you go to t5 Deep Stalker instead NiS and take Devastating Shot. For pure Monk no so good opportunity, and Flash bang is very usable.

Not sure where the +3 attack and +1 damage is coming from. (note that I did edit t2 and t4 shuriken training to match what current ninja spy does, since I had made a typo. They now give +2 to damage instead of +1)

• Is it because of the tier 5 shuriken mastery? The wiki says that the current enhancement, touch of death, gives +3 to hit and damage with centered weapons that arent Qstaff/wraps. Is the wiki incorrect?

It coming from my fatigue at night and the inattention it caused. ?
In reality, your suggestion is pure nerf, because currently tree provide +7 to hit and + 9 to damage for Ninjutsu line + Touch of Death, -2 damage net loss. I see now you correct this, but anyway other suggestions still bad. 8)

I strongly believe that, if this tree were to be a ranged tree only, this should not have +25% competence bonus to hit points. No other ranged tree has any competence bonus to hit points, nevermind the highest bonus in the game. I increased the MRR/MRR cap and added the elusiveness enhancement to offset it somewhat. It is certainly a net loss in survivability, but the tree never should have allowed throwers to get the bonus HP to begin with.

It's why pure monk build not so popular in current meta. Peoples go to deep split to DWS Ranger/DH because free melee feats provide more HP and provide HP from tree. So remove HP bonus from t5 NiS just reduce tee viability and do it even less attractive than it is now.

Having heard feedback from others who have played shuri-monk, and having seen the power of shuri-monk myself, I, and others, believed that sting of the ninja was too powerful.

Lolwut?! ?
Sorry, it don't. d6 imbue dice instead d8 from Drow racial tree or Rogue Assassin scaled with 100% RP/MP only instead 200% and half mobs in game resist/immune to Poison? 5% just do it viable... almost viable to be correct. And it's why peoples in high-end builds take other imbues instead: from Drow, from split to other trees like Lighting the Candle or from split to other classes tree. Personally i use KotC Slayer of Evil imbue - d6 almost irresistible Light damage scaling with 200% MP/RP.

I felt the nerf from 5% vulnerability per stack down to 3% vulnerability per stack was fair, given no other damaging abilities in the tree were touched. This change is not even close to some of the heavy-handed nerfs we've seen to other enhancements/builds in the past. But, if this is incorrect, then we can leave it the way it was.

It still unnecessary and unwanted nerf to already weak ability.

Also, you suggest adding +4 dex to the capstone. Do you believe that shuri-monk needs to be buffed? I haven't heard that opinion before, so I am curious why you think that.

All pure and many hybrid trees have +4 to main stat with many other benefits. Other solution - give +2 to all stat like Kensei or UE trees.

Just for comparison, other capstones:

AA tree - +4 Dexterity, +20% Doubleshot
DWS - +4 Dex, +3SA dice, +20 MP, +20 RP, +20 Positive SP, you always in PBS and SA range
Alc Venom's Grip - +4 Int, +10USP, +3% DS/DS, +2 ID
etc etc

I didn't see single reason why capstone for NiS don't have +4 to main stat + some real benefits instead or add to almost useless in Epic/Legendary game Vorpal.

We need active ranged ki strikes, ranged IK (iconic ability for ninja), some more active ki use...
All your suggestions currently is just remove "unused" melee abilities and nerf tree do it worse than it is now. If it's all your suggestion - better no suggest for NiS anymore, please. 8)

 

[saekee]

I am doing a pure melee/caster monk using 41 AP in monk. I bow to Fisto on the shuri stuff. I can say that as a melee, the most noticebale ommitance is the complete lack of melee power. Long swords with knight’s training but it costs feats and I did not want to be forced into flowers ED for WSS freeby.

 

[Svirfneblin]

Ninja tree does need help but, it should not be changed to a pure shuriken tree. There are people who are Ninja melee, I just started my 11th life as such. With shortswords and the occasional Kama. I throw the star when ranged is preferred and like the versatility.

I liked your Ninja Dust idea the most.

I don’t think SSG will redo the tree, their trend is to band aid what they have. The last balancing they did for this tree was more of a modernization and bringing some but not all aspects up to par than a wholesome pass. With that said if we keep the Ninja tree as is and add some more items it would be better.

Keeping with the Ninja Spy theme of Sneak and Poison and a need to buff the poor attributes of shortswords and kamas…

1. Ninjutsu line, all 5 rows, add 2% Alacrity when centered with shortsword, Kama, or shurikin. Alacrity Stacks with Wind Stance or Speed Enhancement item but does not stack with any Action Boost.

2. Cores, each core adds 4% Offhand Hit and +3 Melee Power when centered with Shortsword or Kama.

3. Sneak Attack Training line, all 5 rows add +2 Sneak Damage when centered with shortsword, Kama or shuriken.

4. Core 4, Poisoned Darts, change Poison vulnerability from 5 to 10% per stack. Each hit has 5% chance to add a poison immunity strip. Change timer expiration from 5 stacks at a time to 1 stack at a time.

5. Core 5 add a 1 second reduction to cooldown of Quivering Palm. Add a 1 Insight bonus to your Critical Damage Multiplier when centered with Shortsword, Kama. Poison Immunity Strip is now 10% chance per hit.

6. Core 6, remove Vorpal and add a 5% chance to Paralyze a mob per hit, if they are not immune to Poison (or if you have stripped their immunity per #4 above), using your Assassinate DC for the save

7. Improved Martial Arts Epic Feat, add shortswords and Kama to the +1W stat.

8. Improved Sneak Attack Epic Feat, add prerequisite of if u have Ninja Spy Crippling Strike trained.