I need help with hybrid dual-crossbow build!

[Erokir]

Favored soul, dual-crossbow Inquisitive tree for dps, Greater Command for CC, evocation spells for AOE burst damage. Shiradi in epic.

I'm not getting the utility of Improved Precise Shot. It seems that the likelihood of lining up a bunch of mobs so that I can shoot through one into the next is such a difficult chore that it's not worth the 20% damage penalty or the ability points spent to get DEX up to 19.

After playing a few quests with Improved Precise Shot toggled on, I switched to the Archer's Focus toggle and seemed to be having a better time.

Is Improved Precise Shot really worth ti? Am I just not using it right?

This is my second attempt at a dual-crossbow build, and I really enjoy playing Artificer with a repeater much more. The DPS is much more satisfying, including the sound effect of the repeater, which is much more satisfying than the piddly sound of dual-crossbow.

What am I missing?

 

[Dude]

Favored soul, dual-crossbow Inquisitive tree for dps, Greater Command for CC, evocation spells for AOE burst damage. Shiradi in epic.

I'm not getting the utility of Improved Precise Shot. It seems that the likelihood of lining up a bunch of mobs so that I can shoot through one into the next is such a difficult chore that it's not worth the 20% damage penalty or the ability points spent to get DEX up to 19.

After playing a few quests with Improved Precise Shot toggled on, I switched to the Archer's Focus toggle and seemed to be having a better time.

Is Improved Precise Shot really worth ti? Am I just not using it right?

This is my second attempt at a dual-crossbow build, and I really enjoy playing Artificer with a repeater much more. The DPS is much more satisfying, including the sound effect of the repeater, which is much more satisfying than the piddly sound of dual-crossbow.

What am I missing?

I've always found Archer's Focus to be superior to Improved Precise Shot.

 

[rabidfox]

Some people love IPS, others hate it. Active AOE attacks like shoot first work quite nicely; between them and IPS nerfs, it removed the need to use IPS for many folks. I find IPS still has its uses, especially if you do stuff like swap to a salt weapon & use that to slow down entire packs of mobs; but swapping weapons & IPS on/off isn't a gameplay style that everyone enjoys nor is it need very often for group play.

 

[unbongwah]

Is Improved Precise Shot really worth ti? Am I just not using it right?

To me, Improved Precise Shot is another tool in your toolbox. Even if you only use 5% of the time, it's nice to have the option of switching it on.

Of course, if you use it 0% of the time because your AoE damage is coming from other sources or it's too much of a hassle to line up mobs, then yeah, you can skip it and your max DEX requirement drops from 19 to 17 for Combat Archery. Which makes your build less MAD if you're using a mental stat as your primary DPS stat.

This is my second attempt at a dual-crossbow build, and I really enjoy playing Artificer with a repeater much more. The DPS is much more satisfying, including the sound effect of the repeater, which is much more satisfying than the piddly sound of dual-crossbow.

First off, according to this thread, repeaters + Expanded Clip are the best ranged DPS option. So you're not imagining things. The main drawback (if you want to call it that) is Expanded Clip requires Artificer 12 which limits your build options. Whereas Inquisitive works with any class split so it's a lot more flexible, particularly if you're trying to make a hybrid or are using it for a Heroic TR template.

Favored Soul 17 / Artificer 3 is the go-to split for this sort of Inquisitive. FvS 17 for level 8 spells and Leap of Faith; Arty 3 for Shatter Defenses and +5% Doubleshot. Basic AP split is 41 Inquisitive / 13 Battle Engineer / 2 Warsoul; from there it's up to you whether to go all-in on ranged DPS buffs (e.g., Tier-4 Warsoul) or spread them around.

IME the main issue with ranged / caster hybrids is the opportunity costs. I.e., it takes a lot of feats, Enhancements, and Epic Destiny points to be good at ranged DPS; it takes a comparable amount of feats / APs / EDPs to be good at caster DPS, with very little overlap between the two. [I find it ironic that the most popular Arcane Trickster builds right now seem to be pure casters who spend 31 APs in Mechanic and never actually fire a crossbow.] This is made extra-challenging on classes which don't get bonus feats like Favored Soul.

In your case, I'd suggest trimming down your wishlist:

Favored soul, dual-crossbow Inquisitive tree for dps, Greater Command for CC, evocation spells for AOE burst damage.

Building for crowd-control (or party healing) is a lower threshold than trying to build for caster DPS and ranged DPS IMO.

Good luck!

 

[droid327]

Yeah second the idea of dropping the nuking from your build. You won't be able to do it well enough that it'll be better than just using your xbow AOE shots, so just focus on those. Fvs nukes generally aren't that great anyway even with full support.

CC is more doable since you just need enchant DC for GComm, but even then it's really going to lean on past lives tomes etc to keep it reliable

Idk why ips keeps popping up in inqui guides. It's pretty redundant, you have your aoe shot and that's better geometry than a line aoe anyway. I wouldn't worry about dropping ips if you don't specifically want it

The benefit of dxb over rxb is quicker attack cycling, so use that to your benefit. Use SD strike for the aoe debuff rather than pluck. But yeah rxb is pretty widely accepted as far better DPS in epic/leg

 

[Thumbed_Servant]

Favored soul, dual-crossbow Inquisitive tree for dps, Greater Command for CC, evocation spells for AOE burst damage. Shiradi in epic.

I'm not getting the utility of Improved Precise Shot. It seems that the likelihood of lining up a bunch of mobs so that I can shoot through one into the next is such a difficult chore that it's not worth the 20% damage penalty or the ability points spent to get DEX up to 19.

After playing a few quests with Improved Precise Shot toggled on, I switched to the Archer's Focus toggle and seemed to be having a better time.

Is Improved Precise Shot really worth ti? Am I just not using it right?

This is my second attempt at a dual-crossbow build, and I really enjoy playing Artificer with a repeater much more. The DPS is much more satisfying, including the sound effect of the repeater, which is much more satisfying than the piddly sound of dual-crossbow.

What am I missing?

Some thoughts:

• 1 level of Artificer grants your character Rapid Reload for your crossbows
  • Plus 2 levels of Fighter which grants 2 x Fighter Bonus Feat (and there are crossbow useful feats in that list) and access to Action Boost: Haste in Tier One of the Kensai Tree, and Heavy Armor Proficiency.
    • That's 3 feats in 3 levels for the crossbow use and one of the better Action Boosts for burst damage.

• Or: 2 Levels of Artificer grants your character Rapid Reload and Runearm use (yes the Inquisitive can use a Runearm with the dual crossbows.)
  • Plus 1 level of Fighter for 1 X Fighter Bonus Feat and access to Action Boost:Haste, or 2 Levels of Fighter for 2 X Fighter Bonus Feat and access to Action Boost: Haste
    • That's 2 feats in 3 levels for the crossbow use or 3 feats in 4 levels for crossbow use, plus one of the better Action Boosts for burst damage, plus Runearm use.

• Or: 3 levels of Fighter grating 2 X Fighter Bonus Feat, access to the Action Boost: Haste, Heavy Armor Proficiency and the Stalwart Defender's Stalwart Defensive Stance (should you want to improve the characters PRR/MRR)
  • That's 2 feats in 3 levels for the crossbow use and one of the better Action Boosts for burst damage and higher defensive values

I am interested what others might think of the above ideas.

Cheers and Happy DDO'ing

 

[droid327]

I am interested what others might think of the above ideas.

3 levels of arti for access to shatter defenses and 5% dshot in BE is the gold standard

You should have access to enough feats to cover your needs without splashing fighter for it.

If you're going to splash fighter then you probably want to go all in and swing to a 5 dl/4 arti split where you T5 DLord, T4 BE for NHB, T3 inqui for shoot first, then splash 7 fey so you can go fully Cha based

 

[Bjond]

I'm not getting the utility of Improved Precise Shot. It seems that the likelihood of lining up a bunch of mobs so that I can shoot through one into the next is such a difficult chore that it's not worth the 20% damage penalty

IPS is mostly pointless because it mostly doesn't work and that's before considering DMG-20%.

Here's how to make it work: do NOT hard-target and disable automatic soft-targeting. Now wave the xbow in the general direction of the mob pack and it will hit most everything in the pack.

If you hard-target something, the projectile will STOP when it hits that target and it will rarely hit anything in front unless lined up perfectly. This is of very limited use; eg. Hunt's End + IPS + Repeater will shoot 3x HE powered bolts and will kill 3 critters in one ratchety round (assuming each bolt one-shots). INQ + HE will fire 2x HE bolts. Bow and shuriken will only fire one.

IMHO, IPS is not worth the hassle. It's such a broken mess that I rarely build it on ranged builds.

---

If SSG is reading and is wondering how to make a second-tier for precise shot that players would use, it's simple: make it easy to use and guaranteed effective for AE; eg. reuse chain lightning targeting (or warlock chain blast) and make it a ricochet shot. You could even tie it in with items and enhancement nodes that increased the bounce count.

As a bonus, ricochet should be MUCH cheaper to implement due to reduced collision detection.

 

[Jaspar]

IPS really is only for bow users, and they wouldnt actually choose it over Archer Focus would they ?

 

[Thumbed_Servant]

...

If you're going to splash fighter then you probably want to go all in and swing to a 5 dl/4 arti split where you T5 DLord, T4 BE for NHB, T3 inqui for shoot first, then splash 7 fey so you can go fully Cha based

Couldn't the character go fully Charisma based using the Tier 4 Inquisitive Enhancement Inquisition Style: Divine Inquisition coupled with the Favored Soul level 2 auto-granted Grace of Battle (assuming the character is kept at 1/2+ levels of Favored Soul)?

 

[Erokir]

3 levels of arti for access to shatter defenses and 5% dshot in BE is the gold standard

You should have access to enough feats to cover your needs without splashing fighter for it.

If you're going to splash fighter then you probably want to go all in and swing to a 5 dl/4 arti split where you T5 DLord, T4 BE for NHB, T3 inqui for shoot first, then splash 7 fey so you can go fully Cha based

Do you find that these multiclass builds work well in legendary? Will I miss the decreased spell DCs from not being able to take enhancement capstone?

 

[Erokir]

IPS is mostly pointless because it mostly doesn't work and that's before considering DMG-20%.

Here's how to make it work: do NOT hard-target and disable automatic soft-targeting. Now wave the xbow in the general direction of the mob pack and it will hit most everything in the pack.

If you hard-target something, the projectile will STOP when it hits that target and it will rarely hit anything in front unless lined up perfectly. This is of very limited use; eg. Hunt's End + IPS + Repeater will shoot 3x HE powered bolts and will kill 3 critters in one ratchety round (assuming each bolt one-shots). INQ + HE will fire 2x HE bolts. Bow and shuriken will only fire one.

IMHO, IPS is not worth the hassle. It's such a broken mess that I rarely build it on ranged builds.

---

If SSG is reading and is wondering how to make a second-tier for precise shot that players would use, it's simple: make it easy to use and guaranteed effective for AE; eg. reuse chain lightning targeting (or warlock chain blast) and make it a ricochet shot. You could even tie it in with items and enhancement nodes that increased the bounce count.

As a bonus, ricochet should be MUCH cheaper to implement due to reduced collision detection.

Yeah, a "chain shot" for bows/xbows would make all the difference. And if it's too OP of an upgrade, they could limit the number of targets potentially hit to rein it in a bit.

 

[Erokir]

Thanks for all the great comments!

I'll the the waving the crossbow without auto-targeting suggestion, and if that doesn't work for me, than I'm ditching Improved Precise Shot!

 

[droid327]

Couldn't the character go fully Charisma based using the Tier 4 Inquisitive Enhancement Inquisition Style: Divine Inquisition coupled with the Favored Soul level 2 auto-granted Grace of Battle (assuming the character is kept at 1/2+ levels of Favored Soul)?

I did think about that, but you wont have the AP to get Divine Inq. Shoot First is 12 AP, you'd need +10 to get it in Divine Inq vs 7 in Fey.

Specifically I think it'd shake out 36 DLord, 24 BE, 13 Inqui, 7 Fey. If you had +2 Universal AP you could just eke it out, but not with the base 80. But even then you're probably better off putting those extra points into BE for the T4 Doubleshot boost.

Also you'd have to spec into it at 18 since you wouldnt qualify for it (FVS >= non-FVS levels) before then

 

[droid327]

Do you find that these multiclass builds work well in legendary? Will I miss the decreased spell DCs from not being able to take enhancement capstone?

Some do quite well yes. They're multiclasses that specialize into something that both classes do well. You'll suffer on your DCs, you're not wrong, but even a pure class will suffer because you'll still be splitting tradeoffs between xbow and DC casting. Thats why you really need full past lives, excellent gear, tomes, etc. to squeeze every drop into your casting without giving up xbow efficacy.

Thanks for all the great comments!

I'll the the waving the crossbow without auto-targeting suggestion, and if that doesn't work for me, than I'm ditching Improved Precise Shot!

Just imagine you're playing it as a FPS. You'll see your little reticle when you're in manual target mode...use that to aim your shots to hit as many mobs as possible.

Remember the mobs you see arent actually what they are - mobs are really just a geometric hitbox that's larger than their animated "bodies". So a lot of times you can shoot "between" close-packed mobs and hit the edge of both their hitboxes

 

[rabidfox]

3 levels of arti for access to shatter defenses and 5% dshot in BE is the gold standard

You should have access to enough feats to cover your needs without splashing fighter for it.

If you're going to splash fighter then you probably want to go all in and swing to a 5 dl/4 arti split where you T5 DLord, T4 BE for NHB, T3 inqui for shoot first, then splash 7 fey so you can go fully Cha based

I did think about that, but you wont have the AP to get Divine Inq. Shoot First is 12 AP, you'd need +10 to get it in Divine Inq vs 7 in Fey.

Specifically I think it'd shake out 36 DLord, 24 BE, 13 Inqui, 7 Fey. If you had +2 Universal AP you could just eke it out, but not with the base 80. But even then you're probably better off putting those extra points into BE for the T4 Doubleshot boost.

Also you'd have to spec into it at 18 since you wouldnt qualify for it (FVS >= non-FVS levels) before then

Your split there would be using a repeater not dual xbow; so divine inq wouldn't do any good.

 

[Jummby]

I've always found Archer's Focus to be superior to Improved Precise Shot.

Especially in raids! Make sure you have threat reduction and pound bosses. Stop worrying about your kill counts worry about the mission.

 

[Erokir]

Yeah second the idea of dropping the nuking from your build. You won't be able to do it well enough that it'll be better than just using your xbow AOE shots, so just focus on those. Fvs nukes generally aren't that great anyway even with full support.

CC is more doable since you just need enchant DC for GComm, but even then it's really going to lean on past lives tomes etc to keep it reliable

Idk why ips keeps popping up in inqui guides. It's pretty redundant, you have your aoe shot and that's better geometry than a line aoe anyway. I wouldn't worry about dropping ips if you don't specifically want it

The benefit of dxb over rxb is quicker attack cycling, so use that to your benefit. Use SD strike for the aoe debuff rather than pluck. But yeah rxb is pretty widely accepted as far better DPS in epic/leg

Yeah, my AOE nukes are just to soften up enemies packed together. I haven't sacrificed any gear solely to spell power, other than that (like sunken slippers) that I would be wearing anyway. My DC-boosting gear is focused on enchantment, but of course some of it naturally helps the evocation spells as well.

 

[droid327]

Your split there would be using a repeater not dual xbow; so divine inq wouldn't do any good.

It could go either way

You couldn't take extra clip though so it wouldn't be optimal rxb though, that'd take you further down a different rabbit hole