Is something weird going on with weird?

vik

Active member
I've changed my wizard from an enchant/necro to enchant/illusion focus, so now I'm running around with a 124 DC weird and 125 PK in R6-R7. I would've thought that would be enough DC but I'm seeing normal human mobs (not champs) save a lot more often than they did vs. 120 DC wail. This is in IoD quests, not Vecna, where the mobs tend to have higher saves. They seem to be making the will save as they're not taking any damage from these spells. What seems strange is that my mass holds at 118 DC (will) are landing very well. Is something strange going on with these spells? Or what DC I need to make these spells land reliably in R7?
 

DBZ

Well-known member
Think you want 130+ if you really want illusion

Or combo them with debuffs and level drains

Epic spell focus 21 illusion with 31 necro spell specialty or vice versa should help along with a 5 profane set
 

Smokewolf

Well-known member
Think you want 130+ if you really want illusion

Or combo them with debuffs and level drains

Epic spell focus 21 illusion with 31 necro spell specialty or vice versa should help along with a 5 profane set
I've noticed that mobs have become more resistant after U66.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
That does not even surprise other things may have been ninja nerfed

Noticed raids that day were slower not as smooth as well
 

vik

Active member
Hmm, that's definitely possible. Unfortunately I don't really have a pre u66 and a post u66 comparison as I respec'd into illusion after u66. If they did that I'll be very annoyed, as there aren't many ways I can squeak out more DC:
  1. deep gnome: +3 illusion. not doing that: i'd rather quit.
  2. gear: currently if I went with some newer gear instead of slave lords 5 piece I could get +1 dc. not worth it since they're bumping up the level cap at some point.
  3. filigrees: if i scrapped my cry of battle filigrees I could get another +2 dc. but I need those for my summon build so the scarecrow can tank bosses for me.
  4. raid filigrees: I have 2 currently, but I can only buy these when they're on the auction house. raids aren't fun to me. I don't have the last filigree slot unlocked for the same reason. have the other 2 sparks though and a 4 slot artifact.
  5. IoD qstaff for the exceptional int +2. int +15 artifact. Already have.
  6. reaper mage tree: already have all the dc boosts and int from it.
  7. reaper helm: collecting reaper frags but it's very slow going.
  8. pendant of bottled moonlight: had my fill of feytwisted farming disappointment.
  9. deck of many curses: I have curses applied to all but 2 items now. Still building a new deck. Haven't had any luck so far with those.
  10. augments: have my festive int +2, greater illusion, and illusion +6 enchants slotted already.
  11. other int items, spell focus mastery items, profane stuff: already have all that.
  12. yugo pots: already have those.
  13. rem pots: try to save those for when i really need them. too expensive to use all the time.
  14. moontouched: +3 fear spells. already have that.
I'll try dropping a crushing despair and some dc boosts and see if it lands reliably. I'm wondering if something else is awry but I haven't had a chance to check the combat logs yet.
 
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vik

Active member
I'll double-check the logs here in a bit. I'm just reading the tooltip values inside a reaper dungeon. But yes, those are the values I would expect.
 

Raedier

Well-known member
As far as I know you need at least a 145 on weird for a no fail DC
Allthough stuff is now suddenly saving against my 118 bogw on r6 and salt ray pretty much fails half the time and reapers seem to be entirely immune to the stun.
That could be a bug as I am pretty sure salt ray always used to stun reapers.
I didn’t have that issue pre u66.

With that said, pre u66 I was using 109 will save GCS and it did exactly what it was supposed to do 90% of the time, often even against despair reapers.
 
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vik

Active member
No way I'm getting anywhere close to that: boosts and debuffs won't even get me close.

Greater color spray is a good spell, I agree. Mine's at 120 right now and it's landing a lot. Too bad it doesn't make mind-immune champs helpless but we have other spells for that. I'm not ready to throw the towel in on this build yet. Despair reapers were a major problem for me before but don't seem to be as much of an issue now.
 

Anniyon

Member
Keep in mind that both weird and phantasmal killer allow for both a will and a fort save meaning its much more likely for a monster to roll a nat 20 on one of them and not die. I have a 126 illusion dc on my sorcerer and 129 with reaper boost and again because it's 2 saves it's going to come up more often that it just won't work.

If you feel like you're still struggling try using enervation first on your PK target. Also keep in mind monsters have a higher save in epic/legendary reaper when at full HP iirc so if you do hit them with an enervation let the damage tick once on the dot portion to further increase your chance.

It's also worth noting that you stated you tested in IoD content which tends to have lower fort saves in my experience. My 114-116ish finger lands pretty reliably there on quite a few things where in other content it might not.
 
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vik

Active member
I knew about the 2 saves: monsters seem to be making the will save as there was no damage taken.

Thanks all, I had no idea that 124 was a low DC for that spell and thought something was broken when my 120 DC wail was working just fine pre u66.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
Have you tried T5 fatesinger? Essentially replacing Weird with Cut the Strings? You also gain +2 DC if you are not in fatesinger now. Primal is +1 DC if you are not using.

Shadowdancer to me is not a good ED minus Weird and the cooldown adjustment. Not enough for me anyway to invest.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
I have 132 illusion DC PK works well but I am not in the most difficult content at no fail 90%. It’s 135 if I use Magus which I switch between as third tree with EA if I want wings.

Once you are out of “no fail” saves every point matters, especially with two saves. So just no DG and no fatesinger is +5 DC which is huge.

Illusion/Shadowdancer is a trap IMO there are only two good spells GCS and PK plus Weird.

To me you should think of instant killing/CC as the mindset if you want to ignore damage not an Illusionist. That means Necro, Enchantment, Illusion, Conjuration.
 
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vik

Active member
I have a few questions about fatesinger:
  1. cut the strings: if enemies make their will save does the death effect still apply?
  2. for fatesinger t5 I calculated +2 to ability scores but I couldn't figure out where the other +1 DC came from. How are you gaining bardic ballad to get that extra +1 DC?
 
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EinarMal

Well-known member
I have a few questions about fatesinger:
  1. cut the strings: if enemies make their will save does the death effect still apply?
  2. for fatesinger t5 I calculated +2 to ability scores but I couldn't figure out where the other +1 DC came from. How are you gaining bardic ballad to get that extra +1 DC?
You get ballad from a little bit of music I think it for sure works!

For cut they dance first so it starts as CC but is nice because it is a Will save. Once they dance you can just tap them with a melee hit and they die if dancing, or spell damage will also kill them any damage basically.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
Do you know how much night mare lance dc is needed for average raid bosses like hunt
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
Do you know how much night mare lance dc is needed for average raid bosses like hunt
I do not. All my nukes are evoc/conj on a reflex save. For those 120 is golden in my experience. I use primal mantle so use acid well, carrion swarm, arcane tempest and magic missle PL wizard to proc it and add in iceberg, thunderstroke, polar ray etc…
 
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DBZ

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Just started the hunt farms way too late but just need 1 augment my dcs are garbage on it right now

No real way to improve without a perfect gomf
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
Just started the hunt farms way too late but just need 1 augment my dcs are garbage on it right now

No real way to improve without a perfect gomf
I finally got my 1250 runes for Pomura last week, never pulled it!
 
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