Kali's Alchemist Vile Chemist HYBRID Thrower/CC+ Insta-kill Caster build

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
Welcome to my build repository! I've been playing since 2006, and I play to have fun: I don't really care about 'the META'. I have 23 alts, so I actively play practically every class and race available in the game. I design all my builds fully from scratch. Hope you find them useful, and constructive comments/ suggestions are always welcome!

If you would like to contribute towards this effort, any donations will be greatly appreciated. If not, please don't worry: sharing is caring! Just sit back and relax, and enjoy the builds!

7. Kali's Alchemist Vile Chemist Thrower/ CC+Insta-kill Caster hybrid build
DDOBuilder file for this build. You can find and download Maetrim's DDOBuilder here.
Note:
This character has been re-specced to a melee/hybrid version of this build in Aug 2023 (expand the button below if you are interested in the reasons for this decision). Since I am not actively playing this in the live game, updates to the build are unlikely to be made as promptly as with the other builds.
There were no major flaws with the build per se, but its main abilities (listed below) have far stronger synergy with the melee version, as they all require melee range:
> Mass Frog​
> Flash Freeze​
> Mass Flesh to Gold​
> Wave of Poison​
> Fan of Knives​

Sure, it was quite possible to throw Glue Bombs from afar, then close the distance and use those abilities, but I found myself in melee range (to take full advantage of those abilities) far more often than I would have liked for a ranged character.

The build will stay in my repository, for anyone who wants to give it a go, but might not be updated as readily as the others, as this is no longer being actively played by one of my alts.
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Avatar-2.jpg

N.B. Details about the cosmetics here

Preface to the build

This thread aims to provide the very 'core' of the build:
  • show how it started: its key aims
  • indicate the key decisions that can be made to achieve those aims: stats, skills, feats, heroic enhancements, epic destinies
  • all numbers are based on what a first-lifer (or someone with minimal past lives) would have, unbuffed, outside of reaper mode (they do, however, include equipped gear and partially completed filigrees). They are real characters, and those are the numbers I can offer.
  • numbers are indicative of the potential minimum amounts that can be achieved with the investments that were proposed
  • provide a 'photo' of what your character could look like at endgame during quite a few lives of their 'TR hamster wheel' journey
  • show the 'foundations' to be built upon, if a player decides to embark on the 'TR hamster wheel' and go out there to hunt for rare bonuses
  • gear choices are NOT part of the core build, but rather one of the most important ways to invest in the key elements of the core build to make the aims work. It has been added here simply to suggest options/ inspire. No promises are being made towards keeping this updated upon the release of new content.

DISCLAIMER: nobody in real life has been injured on the making of this thread, and nobody will suffer injuries in real life if they try it. DDO is an awesome game, and trying-and-testing + making changes to suit your specific play style are a very healthy aspect of the game. It's how you learn and get better! Try not to stress too much about what some people have to say about how you play your game. Not everyone gets that this is a game, that people are not the same, and don't want the same things! The Mountain has many paths. Have fun!

Aims of the build

Primary aim(s):
1. Ranged DPS:
> AoE
> 'Improved Precise Shot' (feat)​
> Single-target (e.g. bosses)​
> 'Archer's Focus' (feat)​
2. interweaved with Insta-kills (2 spells):
> AoE (1):​
> Primal Avatar​
Transmutation
> 'Mass Frog [T5]'
> Single target (1):
> Alchemist
Transmutation
> 'Turn to Frog' (spell)
Secondary aim(s):
3. Crowd Control:
> Ranged:​
> Shiradi (AoE, in a straight line, while Improved Precise shot is on)
> 'Pin [T2]'
> 'Otto's Whistlery [T3]'
> Spells:
> Alchemist
Transmutation
> 'Glue Bomb'
> 'Flash Freeze'
> 'Mass Flesh to Gold'
> Legendary Crown of Snow:
> 'Freezing Ice effect' (on spell casting)

4. Moderate offensive casting (occasional use):
> Mostly Poison:
> Primal Avatar
NO Save
> 'Shard Storm [T2]'
> Alchemist
> AoE spells:
Conjuration
> 'Multivial of Poison'
> DoT spells:
NO Save
> 'Venom Concentration'
> SLA: 'Wave of Poison [T3]'
> some Negative:
> Alchemist
Conjuration
> 'Inflict Critical Wounds' (AoE)
5. Finding & disabling traps + opening locks

Key stats & synergies

Key abilities toolbar (main rotation):
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Key-abilities-toolbar.jpg


A. Intelligence for ranged combat:
> To-hit & dmg: Alchemist's 'Battalion Brew' (bonus feat, min lvl 4)​

B. Attack speed = 36%:
Feats
> 'Rapid Shot'​
> 'Quick Draw': Vistani [C3]​
Enhancement bonus
> +15%: Gear/ Augment/ Haste spell​
C. Doubleshot = 194%
Doubleshot Breakdown
:
Feats -> {+113}
> +3%: 'Past Life - Primal Sphere: Doubleshot'​
> +10%: 'Doubleshot' (Epic Destiny feat)​
> +2%: 'Harbinger of Chaos'​
> +5%: 'Watchful Eye' (Epic Destiny feat), enhanced by Shiradi's 'Pierce Deception [T3]'​
> +94%: 'Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise' (Alchemist auto-granted feat), enhanced by Vile Chemist's 'Simple Thrown Mastery [T4]'​
Heroic -> {+42}
> +5%: Vistani's 'Quick Reflexes [C3]'​
> +5%: Vistani's 'Celerity [T4]'​
> +20% morale: Vistani's 'Rapid Throw [T1]' -> can be kept up 100% of the time
> +1%: Swashbuckler's 'Swashbuckling [C2]'​
> +5%: Vile Chemist's 'Stone of the Subliminal [T2]'​
> +3%: Vile Chemist's 'Hidden Blades [C3]'​
> +3%: Vile Chemist's 'Hidden Blades II [C4]'​
Epic Destinies -> {+6}
> +6%: Shiradi's 'Phase Double [T2]'​
Gear bonuses (inc Set bonuses) -> {+29}
> +15% artifact bonus (set bonus)​
> +9% enhancement bonus​
> +5% insightful bonus​
Filigrees (inc Set bonuses) -> {+1}
> +1%: 'The Serpent' (single filigree)​
Airship Buffs -> {+2}
> +2%: 'Archery Range'​
> buffable to 424%:​
Feats
> +100%: 'Multitude of Missiles' (Alchemist auto-granted feat)​
Heroic
> +100%: Vistani's 'Whirling Blades [T5]' (cannot use at same time as 'Blessed Knives' & 'Vendetta' [T5])
> +30% action boost bonus: Alchemist's 'Bottled Boost: Double' (spell)​
* The image on the left shows standing Doubleshot value, and did not include 20% morale bonus from Vistani's 'Rapid Throw [T1]'
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Doubleshot.jpg

D. Weapon Critical profile = 15-20/ x3:
[Bard's 'Swashbuckling [C3]' + 'Improved Critical' (feat)]​
Critical threat range
Base
> 19-20: Throwing Dagger​
Feats
> +2 feat bonus: 'Improved Critical: Thrown' (feat)​
Heroic enhancements/spells
> +2 competence bonus: Swashbuckler's 'Swashbuckling [C3]'​
= 15-20
Critical damage multiplier
Base
> x2: Throwing Dagger​
Heroic enhancements/spells
> +1 competence bonus: Swashbuckler's 'Swashbuckling [C3]'​
= x3
Average additional base damage = +60%:​
Critical threat range 15-20 = 6
Critical damage multiplier x3 (-1 to remove base) = 2
> 6 x 2 = 12
> Each point = 5% more average base damage​
> 12 x 5% = 60%

> Crit profile boost:​
> Vistani 'Vendetta [T5]': +1 crit range & multiplier {for 15s, 60s cooldown}
(cannot use at same time as [T5] 'Blessed Knives' & 'Whirling Blades')

E. 18 imbue die: Poison dmg (scales Spell Power)
Imbue die breakdown:
+5 die Feats
+2 Harbinger of Chaos (@lvl 31)​
+3 Scion of Earth (@lvl 30)​
+6 die Heroic enhancements​
+4 Vile Chemist C2 (+1 @Alch 6, 9, 12, 15)​
+2 Vile Chemist (C3-4)​
+6 die Epic Destinies​
+3 Primal Avatar (Tier 3)​
+3 Draconic Incarnation (Tier 3)​
+1 dice Augment​
+1 Emerald of Arcane Empowerment​

= total 18 die, sustainable 100% of the time

F. Extra ranged damage:
> Extra Ranged Power:​
> 'Arcane Warrior' (feat)​
> Chance for extra dmg on ranged attacks {can only strike once every 5s):​
> Primal Avatar's 'Mantle of Nature: Thorn [T2]' (scales Spell power)​
G. Burst damage:
> Shiradi's 'Hunt's End [T1 & 3]'​

H. Vistani boosts:
> 'Vistani Fortune [C5]' (random for 60s, 60s cooldown):​
> Coins: +5% Doubleshot​
> Swords: +15 Ranged power​
> 'Blessed Knives [T5]': +10 stacking bonus to weapon for 10s, 10s cooldown​
(cannot use at same time as [T5] 'Whirling Blades' & 'Vendetta')
I. Poison immunity removal:
> Vile Chemist
> 'Poisoned shot [T2]'
> SLA: 'Wave of Poison [T3]'
J. FORT save de-buffs (both insta-kill spells + Mass Flesh to Gold have FORT saves):
> Vile Chemist​
> Contaminated effect applied via Vile Chemist's:​
> 'Poisoned shot [T2]'​
> SLA: 'Wave of Poison [T3]'​
> 'Venom Concentration' (spell)​
> Contaminated enemies -1 FORT per hit, stacks 4 times
> 'Toxic Augmentation [T3]'​
> Alchemist​
> -1 FORT per hit, stacks 5 times / Crits: CON dmg / Vorpal: vulnerability
> 'Greater Heartseeker Poison imbue' (spell)​
K. Main Spell DCs:
> Transmutation (104+)
> Conjuration (100+)​

L. Main Spell Powers:
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Spellpowers.jpg

> Extra Spell Power:​
> 'Arcane Warrior' (feat)​
> Extra damage on offensive spellcasting:​
> 'Mantle of Nature: Thorn [T2]'​

G. Trapping:
> Auto-search for traps:​
> 'Watchful Eye' (feat)​
> Very high INT:​
> Search + Disable traps​
> Reflex saves:​
> 'Insightful reflexes' (Alchemist auto-granted feat)​
> Evasion:​
> Alchemist's 'Liquid Luck' (feat)​
H. Defensiveness
I share some strategies for general defensiveness and survival in this thread. Come visit if you feel it could be useful to you!

The 'core elements' of the build


Class(es): Alchemist (16)/ Bard (3)/ Rogue (1)
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Good ('Harbinger of Chaos' feat / Non-Lawful because Bard restriction)
Main stat: Intelligence (level ups here)
Starting stats (36 pts): STR: 08/ DEX: 14*/ CON: 16/ INT: 18/ WIS: 08/ CHA: 08
* +5 DEX tome req for Improved Precise Shot feat
Skills:
> Search/ Disable Device / Spot / Open Lock​
> Spellcraft/ Heal / Use Magic Device/ Perform/ Jump/ Tumble/ (any)​
Weapon type(s): Throwing Daggers only (Vistani)

Feats:
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Feats.jpg


Heroic enhancements: 83 = 80 + 2 (Racial tomes) + 1 (Universal tome)
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Heroic-enhancs.jpg


Epic Destinies: 65 = 61 + 1 (Tome of Fate +3) + 2 (Fey & Dread tomes) + 1 (Historic tome)
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Epic-Destinies.jpg


Spells:
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Spells.jpg


Suggestions for gear
(not part of the core build: choices based on what supports the main aims of the build best, with the intention to suggest/ inspire)

Gear Set bonuses:
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Gear-Set-bonuses.jpg


Gear:
(PS: Some choices ref gear cater to a much larger personal scheme/tetris where items need to get shared between several alts at endgame, where I normally play in reaper mode 6-10 skulls).
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Gear-set-labelled.jpg


Swashbuckler-hybrid-Trapping-gear.jpg


Rings-of-Spell-Storing.jpg


Most important augments to slot:
+12 Ranged Power
+20 To-hit
+1 Imbue dice
+2 profane/ +1 except All Ability scores
+5 insight Intelligence
+2 festive Intelligence & Constitution
+6 equip Transmutation & Conjuration DCs
+2 enhanc Transmutation & Conjuration DCs
+5% insight All Spell Critical chance
+100 insight Spell Points
+54 Hit Points/ +32 Sheltering/ +10 resist All Saves

(Suggestions for where to slot them in the DDOBuilder file for this build).


Main Filigree Set bonuses:
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Filigree-Set-bonuses.jpg


Filigrees: 14 = 10 (weapon) + 4 (artefact)
Vile-Chemist-hybrid-Filigrees-all.jpg


Filigree master plan:
  1. Primarily invest in Spell DC and Intelligence.
  2. Spell Power goes as secondary aim, if/when possible to squeeze in
  3. other effects get the least priority


I am always happy to read, consider and respond to constructive comments/ suggestions / feedback that are provided in a polite and friendly manner. I welcome discussions with anyone who is capable (and willing) to do this. Some discussions may lead to both parties simply agreeing to disagreeing - that's absolutely fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion after all!
.
 
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Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
Spell DCs: hybrids vs pure casters

I strongly recommend NOT swapping out any investment (e.g. feats, enhancements, etc.) made to increase spell DCs, even if your character has all past lives.

To expound on my reasoning, I thought I could go over some of the main differences between pure casters and hybrids ref spell DCs, bearing in mind that the table below makes several generalisations, so things will vary between different classes/ races/ specific choices made by players/ etc.:

Pure castersHybrid caster + melee/ranged
MORE DCs
- tend to stay pure, rather than multiclass, so normally benefit from +4 to their main ability score from the core 6 capstone (= +2 DCs)


.
LESS DCs
- many tend to multiclass, and therefore, miss out completely on the capstone ability score bonus
- some stay pure (like my Blight Caster hybrid), but they tend to go with a melee/ranged-focused tree as their main tree, and the capstones for those often grant only +2 to main ability score, and +2 CON
.
MORE DCs
- can acquire an extra +6 (or more) to their main ability score from heroic trees:
+2 from tiers 3 & 4 of main caster tree
+2 from tiers 3 & 4 of secondary caster tree
+2 racial tree
+? universal tree
A couple of examples of this from my Wizard and Favoured Soul builds
.
LESS DCs
- it is not always possible to acquire as much from the heroic trees, often because of the need to support the melee/ranged aspect:
- haste boost,
- enhancements to change the ability score to-hit & dmg
- trances, etc.



.
MORE DCs
- heroic trees often grant +2 (or more) to the main spell school(s) of their respective classes
- some races (e.g. Dragonborn, Deep Gnome) grant bonuses to specific schools
.
LESS DCs
- many tend to go with a melee/ranged-focused tree as their main tree, and these often do not grant any bonuses to spell DCs
- hybrids tend to be AP tight, so in the racial tree aspect, those with racial past lives would have a stronger chance to achieve similar DCs
.
MORE DCs
- being a pure caster often means having enough feat slots to acquire feats such as:
- Purchased: Past Life: Wizard, granting +1 to all spell DCs
- Great Ability (x2) [Epic feat slots]
.
LESS DCs
- hybrids tend to be very feat tight, as they need to invest both in casting and melee/ranged, so this bonus might not always be taken


.
SIMILAR DCs
- the following feats could potentially be considered essential for DC casting, so are often taken by pure casters:
- Spell focus: school
- Greater Spell Focus: school
- Epic Spell Focus: school [Epic feat]
- Spell Speciality [Epic Destiny feat]
- Metamagic: Embolden Spell
- Metamagic: heighten Spell (for some classes)
- Scion of (spell DCs options)
- Passive: Past lives (inc Completionist feats)
.
SIMILAR DCs
- it is possible to make a similar investment to a pure caster, while still having room to invest in the melee/ranged aspect (as well as on some spellpower too)
N.B. The main spells this build uses at endgame would have limited benefit from heighten: overall, those specific spells, do have similar DCs to a pure caster investing in those 👈 without heighten






.
SIMILAR DCs
- caster EDs often grant the following DC bonuses:
+4 to all schools [cores 1-4]
+3 to a single school [tier 3]
+3 to all schools [tier 5]
.
SIMILAR DCs
- hybrid EDs (Fatesinger inc) grant the same bonuses



.
SIMILAR DCs
- Gear: the following stackable bonuses to spell DCs are considered by many to be essential for DC casting:
- equipment bonus
- enhancement (Gianthood augments)
- insightful
- quality
- sacred
- profane
- exceptional
- artifact
.
SIMILAR DCs
- it is possible to acquire all these bonus types for at least a couple of schools, while still having room to invest in the melee/ranged aspect (as well as on some spellpower too)
- thanks to sets like 'Masterful Magewright' and 'Part of the Family' + 'Wallwatch', it is possible to combine a 3-piece set for the melee/ranged aspect, while adding a DC casting set bonus too.
N.B. Isle of Dread and Vecna use the cloak slot as a requirement for the 3-piece set, so this would not be possible


.
SIMILAR DCs
- filigrees can provide a large bonus to spell DCs:
- set bonuses (e.g. Eye of the Beholder 4-piece)
- filigrees that grant ability score bonuses
- doubling-up the same type of filigrees, by slotting one in the weapon and the other in the artefact (e.g. Eye of the Beholder (raid) +2 INT x2)
.
SIMILAR DCs
- though at the detriment of the melee/ranged aspect of the build, it is possible (and I personally strongly advise towards this) for the same investment to be made for a hybrid build



.

This is roughly the 'formula' I use to make my hybrids work, and by this I mean to get them to land spells reliably while still benefiting from melee/ranged attacks. A hybrid character will (and should) never be as successful in casting as a pure caster, neither as strong as a pure melee/ranged DPS alt. It's the combination of some of what casters and melee/ranged DPS do that can create a workable output for hybrids, but in the end, both aspects end up lesser than their pure counterparts.

Lesser does not (and should not) mean inefficient, though: it is pointless investing anything in spell DCs if they don't land at all, so in my personal view, spell DCs ALWAYS take priority when it comes to hybrids.

Hope this was useful! :)


Extra suggestion to make the most of this thread:

I do recommend having Maetrim's DDOBuilder open while looking at my threads, as this will enable you to:
- hover over the abilities listed and learn more about them
- experiment with changing things and seeing if they would work better for you, before doing it in the live game
- get a general overview of the key aspects of the build

I arrange my DDOBuilder screen as per the image below (not this build in the image), as it helps me view the key aspects of my builds far more easily than opening and closing a bunch of windows. Just thought I'd share, in case its useful:
Maetrim-s-DDOBuilder-sample.jpg


Maetrim's builder is really amazing, I highly recommend it!
 
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Vathailos

Member
Really appreciate the build share. Quick question: how do you meet the 19 DEX requirement for Improved Precise Shot?
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
Really appreciate the build share. Quick question: how do you meet the 19 DEX requirement for Improved Precise Shot?
Hi Vathailos. You're very welcome, hope you are finding the builds helpful :)

Thanks for pointing this out: I have now updated the main build to reflect that it requires a +5 Dexterity tome. It's well worth the investment, though :)

That character has a supreme +8 that I got in one of the tome sales: once you get a tome like that on a char, you almost forget about feat requirements for future lives/builds.
 
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Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
Updated the Starting Stats to include how many points the build has (in brackets).
Hopefully this helps avoid confusion :)
 

Kipp

Well-known member
Hey, I was wondering if you could advise me what changes you'd make for a thrower/healer build instead of a insta kill caster? This build looks a lot of fun :D
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
Hey, I was wondering if you could advise me what changes you'd make for a thrower/healer build instead of a insta kill caster? This build looks a lot of fun :D
Hi Kipp, happy to make some suggestions :)

It sounds very doable actually, but perhaps a word of warning from my personal experience (there may be some who disagree with this):
- healing via the bottles can be quite slow (they can't be quickened with the feat quicken spell)
- it frequently misses the target you had expected to hit when people move around, and DDO is quite a fast paced game
- when solo healing, I have to click F1 to select my own character, and then it has a much higher chance to actually work. There are times, however, when I still use F1 but the spell doesn't heal me (I suspect it's mostly when I am near an object/wall)

I absolutely hate healing with alchemists because of this, but who knows, you might have a great experience!

My suggestions would be:
- Vistani is the main DPS tree for the ranged aspect of the build. Keep it at 42 APs
- Swashbuckler is also important, not only to add critical range, but also to add double shot

- You could perhaps replace the Vile Chemist tree for Apothecary, to invest in the healer aspect of the build.
> one piece of warning: you would miss out of stripping immunity to poison damage (in Vile Chemist)​
> perhaps spend at least 7 points in vile chemist to get core 2 (min 5 points), then Poisoned shot from tier 2​
> the rest (19 points) in Apothecary?​
> perhaps a bit more in Vile Chemist (9) to get Stone of Subliminal (double shot + blur)​
> the rest (17 points) in Apothecary)?​
Hope these was helpful!
 

Kipp

Well-known member
Hi Kipp, happy to make some suggestions :)

It sounds very doable actually, but perhaps a word of warning from my personal experience (there may be some who disagree with this):
- healing via the bottles can be quite slow (they can't be quickened with the feat quicken spell)
- it frequently misses the target you had expected to hit when people move around, and DDO is quite a fast paced game
- when solo healing, I have to click F1 to select my own character, and then it has a much higher chance to actually work. There are times, however, when I still use F1 but the spell doesn't heal me (I suspect it's mostly when I am near an object/wall)

I absolutely hate healing with alchemists because of this, but who knows, you might have a great experience!

My suggestions would be:
- Vistani is the main DPS tree for the ranged aspect of the build. Keep it at 42 APs
- Swashbuckler is also important, not only to add critical range, but also to add double shot

- You could perhaps replace the Vile Chemist tree for Apothecary, to invest in the healer aspect of the build.
> one piece of warning: you would miss out of stripping immunity to poison damage (in Vile Chemist)​
> perhaps spend at least 7 points in vile chemist to get core 2 (min 5 points), then Poisoned shot from tier 2​
> the rest (19 points) in Apothecary?​
> perhaps a bit more in Vile Chemist (9) to get Stone of Subliminal (double shot + blur)​
> the rest (17 points) in Apothecary)?​
Hope these was helpful!
It was! :D My plan was to get to 32 and see how it goes, and then see if ill keep that as my high level healer or TR into a more traditional healer. I just really like the alchemist class! :D
 

LeandroLSF

New member
@Kalibano cool! I wanna try this build!
I heard that in heroic lvls a thrower alchemist is really bad and i should lvl up as a caster first. Is that true?
Would love if you could add leveling tips for your builds too. and maybe equipment for some key levels like lvl 5, 10 and 15 maybe?
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
@Kalibano cool! I wanna try this build!
I heard that in heroic lvls a thrower alchemist is really bad and i should lvl up as a caster first. Is that true?
Hi @LeandroLSF Hope you do enjoy the build if you give it a try :)

I agree that for pure throwers it can be difficult during heroic levelling.

To mitigate this, I pick up Rapid Shot very early on, which helps a little. The lack of Improved Precise shot for AoE damage until level 18 can indeed slow things a bit.

The thing is, being a hybrid ranged/caster build, I didn't really find this to be a massive issue, because I was throwing spells both for cc and damage from early on, and topping up damage via throwing weapon.

Would love if you could add leveling tips for your builds too. and maybe equipment for some key levels like lvl 5, 10 and 15 maybe?
I do wish I had the chance to add all this extra info to my builds, time is just so limited :(
Thanks for your suggestion anyway, I'll keep this in mind once all my builds are posted and I look into how to expand them :)

Hope this was helpful!
 
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Kipp

Well-known member
@Kalibano cool! I wanna try this build!
I heard that in heroic lvls a thrower alchemist is really bad and i should lvl up as a caster first. Is that true?
Would love if you could add leveling tips for your builds too. and maybe equipment for some key levels like lvl 5, 10 and 15 maybe?

The only difference between inquisitve and thrower alchemist in this build is rapid reload vs simple throw expertise and the imp critical in heroics. You could level to epics using inquisitive and feat switch the rapid reload (You'll lose some crit chance by not having imp critical but its not going to destroy your damage since most of it will come from imbues anyway). This is what I did (Don't take swashbuckling until you switch to thrown. While the inquisitive does allow you to swashbuckle with crossbows it doesn't really give much benefit vs the loss of the points from alchemist poison tree)
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
Inquisitive sounds like a nice variation for this build, nice suggestion Kipp :)

To be honest, the Vistani tree and the amazing crit profile via swash really made the ranged side of the build shine. All the double shot you get (inc from Vile Chemist for having an orb) didnt really make my experience levelling hard at all. But thats me: some people like zerging and need to kill ultra fast.

But again, this is a hybrid, so it wasnt ranged combat all the time, it was ranged + casting.
 

Scrag

Well-known member
How do you throw faster than say... once dagger every 1.5 seconds?
It is pretty frustratingly slow.

Also, when do you start getting all those dice? I have 11 levels of alchemist, and building to the above, I only have _3_ dice... 15 levels total.
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
How do you throw faster than say... once dagger every 1.5 seconds?
It is pretty frustratingly slow.

Also, when do you start getting all those dice? I have 11 levels of alchemist, and building to the above, I only have _3_ dice... 15 levels total.
Hi Scrag,

I get what you are saying: most (if not all) ranged builds feel pretty slow at lower levels. Not much we can do about it, other than try to speed things as much as we can via the choices we make for the build itself.
If I'm not wrong, some of the attack speed is tied to BAB, and I recall the Devs saying there wanted to adjust speed given by BAB at some point to smooth out the speed curve.

So, accepting that ranged builds normally attack slow at low levels, I still found this build ok-ish while levelling because of
- Vistani in general
- Doublestrike (both from Vistani and Vile Chemist)
- crit profile (Swash)
- being hybrid (caster/ranged)

For example:
At level 1 you can get
a nice 20% morale bonus to Doublestrike (Vis T1) pretty much 100% uptime​
and Rapid Shot​
At level 3
5% attack speed (Vis C2)​
Simple thrown weap expertise​

I know it's not a massive boost, but I just wanted to show I made an effort to pick choices at low levels to help things not feel too sluggish.

Then there's spellcasting, which helps a lot while levelling. From early on you have Glue Bomb, and it's still one of the first CC spells I use at endgame. Then you get SLA: AoE poison damage from Vile Chemist T3 (DoT) which also strips poison immunity.
AoE poision spells only come at Alch level 6+, but Admixture: inflict wounds are a hidden gem because they are AoE and available from Alch level 1, and use spell power that is mostly boosted at the same time as poison.

The imbue dice breakdown
+5 [+1 @Alch 3, 6, 9, 12, 15]
+1 Vile Chemist {C4}
= 6 for most part of the heroic journey

+3 Primal Avatar [T3]
+3 Draconic Incarnation [T3]
= 6
+ 6 (heroic) = 12 during Epic levels

+1 Augment {lvl 28}
+3 Scion Earth {lvl 30}
+2 harbinger Chaos {lvl 31}
= 6
+12 (heroic + epic) = 18 at endgame levels

The build starts shining from later heroic and into Epics, depending on your playstyle of course.

Hope these comments were somewhat helpful :)
 
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Scrag

Well-known member
I had not thought about using cause wounds... Right now I am rocking a stygian orb which is nice. Ive also got a skulled ring and some other bits I can throw at the equation.

Thanks!
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
What’s the point of Swashbuckler in this build. Doesn’t Vistani give the extended Crit for throwing daggers?
Hi @Haphazard Happy to clarify:
Vistani only grants a +1 to critical threat range. Swashbuckler grants double that bonus if you also have the improved critical feat.
Though not required, it certainly boosts damage by helping to achieve a strong crit profile: 15-20/ x3

From Wiki:
Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles1:
  • Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
1 Critical threat range bonuses are doubled with the appropriate Improved Critical feat, but not with keen or impact

Hope this helped! :)
 
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Haphazard

Active member
Hi @Haphazard Happy to clarify:
Vistani only grants a +1 to critical threat range. Swashbuckler grants double that bonus if you also have the improved critical feature.
Though not required, it certainly boosts damage by helping to achieve a strong crit profile: 15-20/ x3

From Wiki:
Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles1:
  • Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
1 Critical threat range bonuses are doubled with the appropriate Improved Critical feat, but not with keen or impact
I did miss something :) It’s so long since I played a non-caster I had forgotten the Crit profile rules changed. That was a long time ago too!
Thank you for taking the time to reply and apologies for the initial apparent gruffness of the post - it was not intended that way, made on mobile without my glasses on :)
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
I did miss something :) It’s so long since I played a non-caster I had forgotten the Crit profile rules changed. That was a long time ago too!
Thank you for taking the time to reply and apologies for the initial apparent gruffness of the post - it was not intended that way, made on mobile without my glasses on :)
No worries at all, and glad to help :)
DDO has such complexity, and so many small details, and so many changes, it's indeed hard to keep up!
 

Kalibano

Build Designer & Fun Lover!
Epic Destinies updated to include an extra point gained from unlocking Machrotecnic.

N.B. At this point in time, my builds will NOT include the +1 Universal Tree (Morgrave) bonus.
Unfortunately, for those of us who actively play several alts, the
Ultimate Bundle offering bank space that is useful to one character only is, frankly, not an offer that adequately supports and incentivises playing with alts. Storage is still a massive issue (particularly for multi-alt players like me), that I sadly feel is still not being addressed in a fair and efficient manner. Since the Ultimate Bundle does not support my playstyle, I sadly chose not to support the game in an ultimate manner on this occasion.

Down the line, this tome will be acquired with DDO points (when I can combine double point sales + tome sale), and the builds that depend on universal trees will be the ones to receive suggestions on where to spend it first.
 
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Fleming

Well-known member
Do bear in mind that the store points version is I believe per character....
It would cost me at least, a bladdy fortune.
 
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