Kali's Dark Hunter Tempest TWF DEX Melee DPS build
- Thread starter Kalibano
- Start date
no
Sneakywink
Well-known member
Does Smoke Trap work now as I found that it didn't work well when with high Assassinate DC?
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Sadly, it's not working as reliably as it could/should, and neither is 'Snap Trap', which uses a similar formula:
Fortitude Save (DC20 + Dex/Int/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs + Bonus Trap DCs)
This seems to be down to a couple of main factors:
- Fortitude save (on both traps), which tends to be resisted by large number of mobs
- The 'Bonus Trap DCs' part of the formula seems to be based on enhancements such as 'Improved traps [T2]', which offer very low bonuses and are not very abundant
- Though nowadays the values of assassinate bonuses on gear are generally similar to tactical DCs, without benefiting from trances in the formula, it simply can't reach values that are as reliable/viable as tactical DCs
- perhaps making 'Lupine Instincts [T4]' additionally grant a primal bonus to 'Bonus Trap DCs' based on the number of wilderness lore feats (this can be easily adjustable in the formula up or down, like 1/3, 1/2, 2x, etc.)
- perhaps replacing the 'bonus trap DCs'in the formula for:
- the number of Sneak Attack Die? (again, easily adjustable in the formula in the same manner)
- the Disable Device skill? (again, easily adjustable in the formula in the same manner)
Last edited:
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Build update
In the recent Black Friday Sales, I got an excellent deal upgrading from Standard edition to the Vecna Ultimate Fan bundle ...
... so I now have a Universal tome (Morgrave) for all my characters. Well worth the wait for this price, and I got to enjoy the content/gear all long!
The following changes/additions
were made to this build:
The sections/effect values/images that were affected have been updated accordingly in the original post.
The DDOBuilder (v2) file has also been updated with these changes.
Enjoy!
.
In the recent Black Friday Sales, I got an excellent deal upgrading from Standard edition to the Vecna Ultimate Fan bundle ...
... so I now have a Universal tome (Morgrave) for all my characters. Well worth the wait for this price, and I got to enjoy the content/gear all long!
The following changes/additions
were made to this build:- +1 Dark Hunter (new total = 28 APs):
- [T4] Slayer in the Dark (rank 3): Morale bonus to Melee Power gained upon killing enemies now stacks 4 times
The sections/effect values/images that were affected have been updated accordingly in the original post.
The DDOBuilder (v2) file has also been updated with these changes.
Enjoy!
.
Last edited:
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
30k+ views!
Together with my Paladin KoTC build, (and likely thanks to the U72 changes, now also my Monk Henshin build), this has always pretty consistently been the second build with the highest number of views out of all the builds in my repository:
Slowly working towards updating gear sets to include a few pieces of gear with S/M augments to existing set bonuses (similarly to the gear set I recently put together for my Bard swashbuckler hybrid).
The long-term plan is to revise all gear sets to achieve similar results, but highly likely I will:
Enjoy, and thanks for everyone who has taken the time to contribute with ideas, compliments and support
.
Together with my Paladin KoTC build, (and likely thanks to the U72 changes, now also my Monk Henshin build), this has always pretty consistently been the second build with the highest number of views out of all the builds in my repository:
Slowly working towards updating gear sets to include a few pieces of gear with S/M augments to existing set bonuses (similarly to the gear set I recently put together for my Bard swashbuckler hybrid).
The long-term plan is to revise all gear sets to achieve similar results, but highly likely I will:
- start from the hybrids, since I now have the Bard Swash sample to adjust from
- then move on to the casters, since their gear set was not updated at the same time as the pure melee gear sets
- and finally move on to the pure melee builds, which were the most recently updated to also include the gear planner spreadsheet
Enjoy, and thanks for everyone who has taken the time to contribute with ideas, compliments and support
.
Last edited:
MarauderX
Active member
Thank you for providing this build along with the updates. I just completed this from 1 to 34, 100% following the feats, skills, enhancements, destinies, etc. Overall... it seems weak at most levels. Not until mid-epics did the damage numbers start to get beyond a steady stream of low digits, and even then, there were not regular critical hits with damage that could keep up with previous barb, bard, sorc, and paladin lives. Buying new equipment at every level or so marginally improved the AC, damage, and skill numbers. Tempest used to be able to rip things up fast, but it seems it is now more below average compared to most in a party, but it was good fun to soak up extra damage with the additional HP.
Thoughts on improvements...
MX
Thoughts on improvements...
- Skip any toughness feats. HP was already higher than many, and 22 reaper points helped push this up too.
- Take Spring Attack. It's great fun to dart ahead and using smoke bomb (or better, invisibility pots) could help with that initial sneak attack.
- Skip the Metamagic Quicken spell. It's a feat that could go to something else to improve damage, speed, survivability for only two suboptimal abilities. Smoke bomb can get by with just using at the initiation of a fight; snap trap doesn't land much on reaper and isn't worth the faster action in an actual fight with mobs.
- It was suggested to switch from rapiers to scimitars to improve the damage. Not sure if this is the solution but could help with skeletons and others that have resistance to pointy and sneak damage.
- The epic/legendary feats seemed to hinge on the sneak attack or helpless targets but seems way behind a vistani rogue or other assassin build.
MX
saekee
long live ROGUE
I know you are using Flow and Rapiers but Maw kukri is not too hard to get and add Salt for phenomenal CC. You can put it in the offhand and then swap an Undying for boss fights.
Kukris have their own tree so lots of flexibility; their main weakness is lack of favored weapon status.
Kukris have their own tree so lots of flexibility; their main weakness is lack of favored weapon status.
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Hi MarauderX,
Thanks for taking the time to post your experience with the build and share thoughts on improvements, much appreciated
> I can see you compared damage output to previous lives/builds you ran: that certainly feels useful for those seeking the builds/classes with the most damage output, so thanks for sharing this
Some thoughts ref your suggestions, if I may:
- Ref toughness feats: generally speaking, I personally prefer to have the amount of hit points I have gone for than to have less in favor of more damage. I think a balanced approach like this is likely to favor characters with no/very few past lives in the long run: I do delve a bit more on this in this thread, as it is a personal playstyle choice. Being able to soak up a bit more dmg makes my gaming experience a lot more fun than being a glass canon.
- This build uses FoTW's 'Fast and Furious', so I already have one 'sprint' attack, which I personally consider superior to Spring Attack because it grants a crit multiplier bonus.
- I'm not fully convinced I would significantly benefit from a second sprint attack... I dunno. I used Spring Attack in my previous Ranger build (with the old Shadowdancer that had the T5 assassinate attack), so sneak damage was a focus even back then, and I found myself avoiding Spring Attack a lot of the time in order to reach the frontline a bit later, after agro was taken.
- I'd say decisions like this depend a lot on what's going on with the game: currently, my melee alts are frequently the only melee in the groups I join, where many are using the cheese ranged builds, so I dunno if I would care to get there any faster. They grab agro from far ahead, I get there and dish all the sneak damage tbh.
- I find quicken super useful, I would not drop it. I initially played without it and found Smoke Bomb (invisibility) and Smoke Trap (lose immunity to sneak attacks and -25% fort) were interrupted far too frequently, as I use them a lot during combat
- DCs for Smoke + Snap traps might not be where they need to be yet (I feel this is because assassinate does not benefit from trances, and therefore cannot beat saves that are balanced around what tactics with trances can reach). I am happy to stick with them until they hopefully get adjusted some day: I personally shared this feedback with the Devs, and suggested, amongst several things, that they could perhaps start benefitting from trances too, now that assassinate bonuses have similar values to stun, trip, etc in gear, trees, etc.
- hinging on sneak attacks and helpless damage is exactly where I personally want this build to be: it reaches 46 sneak die very often ('Opportune Moment' combined with Smoke bomb). Whether behind a vistani/assassin or not, I feel this is the focus that will mostly benefit the very large bonuses that Dark Hunter and Shadowdancer give.
- Admittedly, I do make a personal choice of investing in Assassinate DCs via filigrees, to the detriment of going full-on melee power. I am personally happy with this compromise, though. Others are free to do as they wish, of course.
If I may now delve on some points that are specific to my personal playstyle, and therefore, significantly shape how I play and the choices I tend to make (such as the ones I outlined just above):
> I play around 23 characters
> I like playing several classes and races, and not as 'past lives', but as real characters available permanently
> I don't TR each character often: I build with the endgame in mind, and that's where I spend the vast majority of my time with each character
> Each character kind of specialises on one weapon (sometimes a group of weapons): it's how I deal with my stable of alts
> I enjoy gear tetris, and strive to gear my characters up every 4 levels or so (kind of matching how bonuses on augments go) with 'optimal' gear, including set bonuses and augments. Not everyone bothers with that, but I do.
> I don't particularly compare the damage output between different classes, as I am not personally seeking a/the 'top'/'meta' build: I am fully disinterested in meta
> Vistani 41 might be considered by some as the only way to go, but such rigid 'meta' choices are just not interesting enough to me.
> I am still very hopeful someday all bonuses in the Vistani tree are fixed to apply only when holding daggers and kukris
So with those in mind,
> Ranger (specifically the Tempest variety) has been very fun to play for years. Even if not as powerful as other classes, I am happy to stick with it for this character
> My druid uses my collection of scimitars. This ranger has focused for years on piercing, rapiers mostly (crit profile) BUT, this is a TFW build: there's a bunch of off-hand swappable weapons I do use all the time, particularly from raids when/if I acquire them (especially if they have 'keen' on them when they are not piercing)
> the off-hand helps significantly when dealing with mobs with bludgeon and slash DRs
> I must confess my builds do not focus at all on the journey to the endgame: the choices I make are for the endgame. So some things could/should be tweaked as you go along (even if to be dropped completely later in favor of what I propose)> Filigrees play a very significant role for many builds, and take a significant amount of time to put together (i.e. level the sentient gem and artifact to full, find all the rare filigrees, un-slot from the previous life/build and slot as per my specific build). I feel this needs to be bared in mind when reaching endgame and assessing the potential of a build without the filigrees being the same.
> My general experience seems to differ from yours, and I suspect this is heavily affected by expectations, points of comparison, playstyle, etc.
- I solo all content R3 or so up to mid Epics and this character shreds things to pieces (particularly after it gets Dance of Death) even when sneak attack damage doesn't feature heavily
- I am mindful I don't have the same point of comparisons you had (i.e. your number of past lives and/or the specific builds you ran), which have likely generated expectations (e.g. speed for running content): only you can attest to these, and I am grateful you have shared them
- I mostly compare performance with the previous build I had with this alt (a major build/race/class change is typically the reason that forces me to TR, which I don't often do): in this sense, I feel this Dark Hunter build is superior to the non-archetype Ranger build I used to play
- the journey to endgame is not my focus: the endgame is. I can see that those doing the 'past life hamster wheel' would tend to focus far more heavily on this part of journey, with little/no focus to the endgame (at least not while simply seeking past lives)
Hope these make sense, and genuinely appreciative of your time and suggestions
Last edited:
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
With the number of alts I have, I can't really count on the luxury of having fully upgraded alternatives for my mainhand. Also, it would mean losing the full Dread Isle set bonus, since it only kicks in with 5 pieces equipped (one of which is my main weapon).
While I do tend to stick with Rapiers, I have full flexibility with my off-hand, and in fact, do use a wide variety of weapons (likely you'll recognise many of the ones I carry with me by their icons in the inventory):
The newest toy I acquired is Kindling (shame it doesn't have Keen!): in fact, a key part of my fun at endgame is raiding and acquiring raid gear, so all in good time (especially since my attention is divided amongst a lot of alts).
I've been around since 2006, so sticking to one weapon (sometimes weapon group) for each alt involves more than simply feat choices: there's the important practicality of storage. He is the keeper of my rapier collection lol
Last edited:
saekee
long live ROGUE
heh yeah, I know that problem! But on my two toons that will be using Maw, both have an Attuned weapon in the mainhand for the Dread set. Maw offhand or Undying, or if not an Undying weapon one like the Kindling you have could work great too.With the number of alts I have, I can't really count on the luxury of having fully upgraded alternatives for my mainhand. Also, it would mean losing the full Dread Isle set bonus, since it only kicks in with 5 pieces equipped (one of which is my main weapon).
While I do tend to stick with Rapiers, I have full flexibility with my off-hand, and in fact, do use a wide variety of weapons (likely you'll recognise many of the ones I carry with me by their icons in the inventory):
The newest toy I acquired is Kindling (shame it doesn't have Keen!): in fact, a key part of my fun at endgame is raiding and acquiring raid gear, so all in good time (especially since my attention is divided amongst a lot of alts).
I've been around since 2006, so sticking to one weapon (sometimes weapon group) for each alt involves more than simply feat choices: there's the important practicality of storage. He is the keeper of my rapier collection lol
williambraveheart
Well-known member
your ddo builder file returns error "life" missing StrTome
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Hey there,
I just checked it again and all seem to be working on my end. I re-uploaded the file to Google Drive, just in case.
It might be worth checking if you have the newest version of the DDOBuilder (v2) software. Maetrim released a new build 2 days ago.
Hope this helps.
MarauderX
Active member
Thank you for the follow up - I saw where the end goal was going and thought the ride would be easier for this particular build. Having 67 characters across all of the servers (all getting to 20, with only a few going for past lives), I'm now getting a past-lifer going on Cormyr. It's good to note the approach you are taking on getting to an optimized end-state at 34 with all the gear maximized; I'm not doing the same but instead doing 'casual' leveling and 'fell across a good one' on gear (no farming). I think you are clear about that, but thought I'd share. Also, reincarned Wlk (AotS) and it felt like cheating for some quests... I realize it's not a fair comparison.
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Hey there,
No questions are stupid, DDO is complex, happy to clarify
- Yes, weapon finesse is to use rapiers: if you go with scimitars, both this feat and the Deepwood Stalker's Improved Weapon finesse enhancement won't be needed.
- both have similar strong crit profiles, so it's a matter of choice: since my druid uses my scimitars, I went for rapiers
- improved critical: piercing for rapiers creates the ability to potentially use other special/rare piercing weapon types, such as short swords, daggers and light picks. There's always the option of using scimitars, and other slashing weapons such as kukris, that have the keen property, ofc.
- Rapiers are inherently not considered light weapons (https://ddowiki.com/page/Light_weapons), so they do not benefit from Tempest cores 2 and 3, since the enhancements only work while you are Dual Wielding light Melee weapons. Scimitars only benefit from these cores because core 2 itself additionally lets you treat Scimitars as if they were light Melee weapons
- so the Weapon Finesse feat is to let you use your Dexterity to determine bonus to attack/hit, instead of Strength, when using rapiers
- Deepwood Stalker's Improved Weapon Finesse lets you use your Dexterity modifier for damage when wielding thrown weapons, and melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit (which is what the weapon finesse does to rapiers)
I go all the way to core 6 Tempest, so have to take cores 2 and 3 along the way, whether or not they work with rapiers
I also want to go to Deepwood Stalker to get 3 sneak attack die: this requires 6 points spent to get core 2. Improved weapon finesse is just one extra point here, which can be easily moved elsewhere if you go with scimitars. Just pointing out that the investment to use rapiers vs scimitars is not as significant as it might appear at first glance.
Hope this helps!
Last edited:
Guntango
Well-known member
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
a slight edit, then: *no genuine questions are stupid
If one is genuine, all questions about things they do not know tend to be valid and rarely stupid. Nobody is born knowing everything, and seeking knowledge/understanding is rarely a foolish act.
If one is genuine, all questions about things they do not know tend to be valid and rarely stupid. Nobody is born knowing everything, and seeking knowledge/understanding is rarely a foolish act.
Good morning. I'm considering using this build on my f2p alt account (character only used for trapping/farming for my main). Effectively solo as I send him in to pull levers clear traps or later to scoop chests. Assuming no tomes/raid items and only leveling 20-34 after this life, should I make any adjustments? Also, I'm not into mashing a lot of buttons. When the action's starting, I just cycle through cleaves, trip, shatter, heal, AOE, jump. Thx
Kalibano
Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Hey there
Happy to share some thoughts, hope they are helpful:
All in all, you should be good to go as it is to be honest.
Ref tomes:
- no tomes are required, but having a Wisdom tome is an easy way to overcome the need to equip a Wisdom item (or give up an augment slot for a wisdom augment) to qualify to cast spells. You will need to reach 14 wisdom to be able to cast up to level 4 spells
- you could reduce DEX a bit to start with enough WIS from the start, if you don't want to deal with this hassle
- having an INT tome helps ref trapping too, but can't say it's a requirementRef traps:
- all in all, this build finds and disables all traps just fine. Picking locks is based on DEX, which is the main stat, so it's not an issue at all
- apart from the comment above ref an INT tome being helpful:
- make sure you carry swappable items with stackable bonuses to Search, Disable Device (I shared screenshots with the ones I personally use)
- don't forget to add skill points, every level up, to Search, Disable Device and Open Lock. I like investing in Spot, and recommend it too, especially if you tend to run solo and are not familiar with a lot of quests
- you'll want to permanently wear items to boost Intelligence, since this build uses an INT trance, so this contributes towards traps too
- as planned in the build, Lupine Instincts (T4 Dark Hunter tree) grants a stackable Primal bonus to Search and Disable Device skill bonus equal to your number of Wilderness Lore feats, which again, contributes to the effectiveness of this build dealing w traps.
Ref mashing a lot of buttons:
The Tempest tree does have quite a few buttons to click, mostly to boost dmg, but some for defensiveness (e.g. Elaborate Parry). I touched on this in a previous response in this thread (quoting here to save me typing it again
):The only way to truly know if this is too click-heavy for you is giving it a go tbh. From personal experience in a long distant past when I used other people's builds: you only get a real feel for what it is like to play something when you do it yourself, even if people say in their builds it is not too heavy/complex. How it feels for your taste, speed, playstyle, is something that only you can properly measure.
Ref solo play:
A note of warning: a good chunk of the dmg this build does relies on sneak attack dmg. Playing solo will reduce the opportunities to take advantage of this dmg, but it doesn't mean you will never produce sneak attacks. I delved a bit into this in the main thread (re-posting below for ease of access):
* More on dealing sneak damage without having to actively sneak in the spoiler below:
Actively sneaking is not needed at all. The build does benefit from a LOT of sneak damage, but there are several ways to dish that out without having to actively sneak:
(the bit underlined in in red outlines how this helps you deal sneak damage, without needing to actively sneak)
Though this does require you to be hit at least once, every so often, it procs very frequently, which helps a lot dishing sneak damage without having to actively sneak, as your invisibility will NOT dissipate when you attack
This does mean that solo play potentially offers less opportunities to benefit from this sizeable extra sneak dmg.
Hirelings might help with some agro taking, and perhaps some sneaking could help achieve a first strike that counts as a sneak attack.
- in group play, let others grab agro. While they have agro, you deal sneak damage: you'll love tanks
- helpless mobs take sneak damage automatically: you'll love CC casters too
- Wiki: can always sneak attack helpless targets if they are subject to sneak attacks regardless of aggro... Helpless monsters take an extra 50% damage from all sources - including sneak attack damage, spells, etc.
- wearing an item with the ability 'Improved Deception' helps a lot too (in my gear tetris, this is in the Bloodbark Bracers)
(the bit underlined in in red outlines how this helps you deal sneak damage, without needing to actively sneak)
- the Scion of the Ethereal Plane feat grants you permanent Invisibility Guard
Though this does require you to be hit at least once, every so often, it procs very frequently, which helps a lot dishing sneak damage without having to actively sneak, as your invisibility will NOT dissipate when you attack
- Shadowdancer's 'Bring Darkness [T4]'
- When you roll a natural 20 on a Melee or Ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying a stack of Darkness.
Darkness debuff: You are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.
- When you roll a natural 20 on a Melee or Ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying a stack of Darkness.
- Shadowdancer's 'Dark Imbuement [T3]'
- When you activate your Shadowdancer Epic Strike, you imbue your weapons and spells with Evil energies for 10 seconds. You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with the higher of Melee or Ranged Power), and on a Vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
- Wiki: Blinded creatures are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks, regardless of who they are attacking
- Dark Hunter's 'Smoke Bomb [T4]'
- is mostly used to trigger Opportune Moment: Whenever you become invisible, you gain a Primal bonus to Sneak Attack Dice equal to your Wilderness Lore. This lingers for 10 seconds after you become Invisible and may only trigger once every 60 seconds
- but it does make you invisible for one sneak attack without needing to sneak (since, unlike the invisibility guard effect, this invisibility breaks upon attacking). Since it's cast often, it does help too
- DarkHunter's 'Smoke Trap [C2]'
- Toss a Smoke Grenade at a single enemy. If they fail a Fortitude save (DC20 + Dex/Int/Wis Mod + Assassinate DCs + Trap DCs) they lose their immunity to sneak attack and 25% of their fortification for 25 seconds.
- Fortification bypassis also important, and this builds has some solid investment in that
- Wiki: Fortification represents a percentage chance to negate additional damage incurred from a critical hit or sneak attack
- When a sneak attack is negated, the extra damage is not applied
This does mean that solo play potentially offers less opportunities to benefit from this sizeable extra sneak dmg.
Hirelings might help with some agro taking, and perhaps some sneaking could help achieve a first strike that counts as a sneak attack.
Hope this was helpful, and that you enjoy the build if you give it a go!
Last edited: