Kali's U72 Monk Henshin Mystic THF WIS Melee DPS build

[Kalibano]

ive noticed you take core 3 in shintao - is this just for the heal amp? because it says the cold iron only applies to unarmed.

The U72 release notes strongly suggested that all Shintao core bonuses that used to be for handwraps only now apply to any weapon while centered

Shintao

• Cores:
  
  • Cores remain the same, except all abilities that say with Handwraps now say while Centered.

In game, Shintao Core 3 does say 'unarmed', like you mentioned, but my Henshin Monk using this build and the Dino Staff is getting Cold Iron bypass...

... the DR breakers on the weapon match my breakdown...
H. DR bypass

Spoiler: Expand for more info

Heroic enhancements​

> Byeshk: Shintao's 'Protection from Tainted Creatures [C2]' (also from 'Dino Bone weapon: Meltscale')​

> Cold Iron: Shintao's 'Iron Hand [C3]'​

Epic Destinies​

> Silver: GMoF's 'Disciple of Material: Silver [C2]'​

> Good: GMoF's 'Disciple of Morality: Good [C3]'​

Gear bonuses (inc Set bonuses)​

> Evil: Dino Bone weapon 'Meltfang'​

> Crystal: Dino Bone weapon 'Meltscale'​

... and Cold Iron DR Bypass specifically does not seem to be coming from any other source that I am aware of.

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In any case, I've reported this as a potential text error/bug.

 

[intravenous]

The U72 release notes strongly suggested that all Shintao core bonuses that used to be for handwraps only now apply to any weapon while centered

Shintao

• Cores:
  
  • Cores remain the same, except all abilities that say with Handwraps now say while Centered.

In game, Shintao Core 3 does say 'unarmed', like you mentioned, but my Henshin Monk using this build and the Dino Staff is getting Cold Iron bypass...

... the DR breakers on the weapon match my breakdown...
H. DR bypass

Spoiler: Expand for more info

Heroic enhancements​

> Byeshk: Shintao's 'Protection from Tainted Creatures [C2]' (also from 'Dino Bone weapon: Meltscale')​

> Cold Iron: Shintao's 'Iron Hand [C3]'​

Epic Destinies​

> Silver: GMoF's 'Disciple of Material: Silver [C2]'​

> Good: GMoF's 'Disciple of Morality: Good [C3]'​

Gear bonuses (inc Set bonuses)​

> Evil: Dino Bone weapon 'Meltfang'​

> Crystal: Dino Bone weapon 'Meltscale'​

... and Cold Iron DR Bypass specifically does not seem to be coming from any other source that I am aware of.

---

In any case, I've reported this as a potential text error/bug.

Thanks for clarifying. I officially am loving this build although I went heavily into taxabi despite having only four racial points. Love the speed and killing and cc.

 

[Lord Marshal]

Has anyone else noticed that if you take the Henshin Focus passive, you chat window gets spammed with:

You have multiple effects granting Exceptional bonus to Attack Rolls that do not stack.. ( Centered Attack & Damage and Focus )

I had to turn effects off in the chat window. I hope that I don't really need it on for combat purposes.

 

[Kalibano]

30k+ views!

Likely thanks to the U72 changes, this has now become tied together with my Dark Hunter & Paladin KotC builds, as the 3 builds with the second highest number of views out of all the builds in my repository. I personally feel the changes greatly enhanced my playstyle with this build, love it even more now!

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Slowly working towards updating gear sets to include a few pieces of gear with S/M augments to existing set bonuses (similarly to the gear set I recently put together for my Bard swashbuckler hybrid).

The long-term plan is to revise all gear sets to achieve similar results, but highly likely I will:

• start from the hybrids, since I now have the Bard Swash sample to adjust from
• then move on to the casters, since their gear set was not updated at the same time as the pure melee gear sets
• and finally move on to the pure melee builds, which were the most recently updated to also include the gear planner spreadsheet

In the meantime, hopefully lots of new pieces of gear with S/M slots get released, to create the volume, range and flexibility that level 29-32 gear has been offering so far.

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Enjoy, and thanks for everyone who has taken the time to contribute with ideas, compliments and support :
.

 

[Clockwork Salmon]

How important is shuriken stuff? It sounds a bit clunky having to swap between staff and shuriken, I'm tempted to take spring attack instead of the shuriken feat. Also 15 dex is solely for the extra doubleshot right? I'm on 32 points only so I lowered it to 13. I also don't have aasimar so I made an eladrin starting with 17 wis so I can round up to 18 with autumn affinity.

I'm thinking of going light path so I can self heal before level 12 as I mostly play solo, will that screw me over in the long run? the t5 henshin heal on dark path seems really good as well. Am I able to swap the path feat later? I have a perfect dragon crystal if I end up needing it.

Big fan of your build guides, I'm currently playing your warchanter at level 14, testing your other builds with the lv 7 characters to plan my next TR.

Cheers!

 

[Kalibano]

How important is shuriken stuff? It sounds a bit clunky having to swap between staff and shuriken, I'm tempted to take spring attack instead of the shuriken feat. Also 15 dex is solely for the extra doubleshot right? I'm on 32 points only so I lowered it to 13. I also don't have aasimar so I made an eladrin starting with 17 wis so I can round up to 18 with autumn affinity.

I'm thinking of going light path so I can self heal before level 12 as I mostly play solo, will that screw me over in the long run? the t5 henshin heal on dark path seems really good as well. Am I able to swap the path feat later? I have a perfect dragon crystal if I end up needing it.

Big fan of your build guides, I'm currently playing your warchanter at level 14, testing your other builds with the lv 7 characters to plan my next TR.

Cheers!

Hey Clockwork Salmon,

Glad you enjoy my build guides, thx!

How important is shuriken stuff? It sounds a bit clunky having to swap between staff and shuriken, I'm tempted to take spring attack instead of the shuriken feat.

I personally find it very useful on some occasions. For instance, literally just ran a pug R1 Legendary Lord of the Blades with only one ranged character. It was pretty nice swapping to ranged and being able to contribute meaningfully. That raid was followed by R1 Legendary Master Artificer, and helping take the boss down at the end with the shuriken was pretty good. Den of Vipers is another place where I find myself pulling the shuriken once in a while (to pull the chopped heads towards me in the circles, to help take down a Mist Stalker from afar, or even to damage the Hydra a bit: she hits like a truck at melee range sometimes).

Abundant Step (monk inherent feat) for me is enough to leap about: I personally don't feel the need for another leap. Up to you really, hopefully my reasoning helps you make up your mind

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Also 15 dex is solely for the extra doubleshot right? I'm on 32 points only so I lowered it to 13

Dexterity is quite important actually, as it boosts your reflex saves for your Improved Evasion. I can't see any major issues starting with 2 less points, though, especially since you'd still be able to meet the pre-req for the 'Precision', 'Dodge' and 'ten Thousand Stars' feats. And ya, also valuable for doubleshot in situations like the above.

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I also don't have aasimar so I made an eladrin starting with 17 wis so I can round up to 18 with autumn affinity.

Seems fine. I'm meant to be a trailblazer really, just haven't had the time to TR and change the race myself lol. Too many alts

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I'm thinking of going light path so I can self heal before level 12 as I mostly play solo, will that screw me over in the long run? the t5 henshin heal on dark path seems really good as well. Am I able to swap the path feat later? I have a perfect dragon crystal if I end up needing it.

I can totally see why Light path in heroics would be valuable, it would work just fine. You'll just need to take GMoF core 4 dark path at level 32, and then re-set some of the heroic trees to pick the dark path options in tiers 3 and 4.

Though the self-healing is indeed nice, I personally feel I would probably go dark in heroics: the Henshin 'Katas' are fantastic CC attacks, and Shintao's 'Hand of Harm' is very nice indeed being an auto-crit attack that lowers fortification. When I finally TR into a Trailblazer and have to go go from zero to cap again I'll see if this holds true!

I'm loving the T5 Henshin heal: I always used the light version for the AoE neg levels, so this is new to me, and enjoying the AoE extra heals it grants with such a low cooldown.

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Hope this was helpful, and that you enjoy this build if you end up giving it a go!

 

[Jasparius]

The Shintao capstone seems pretty insane. Would it now make sense to try and get 41 points in Shintao and HeM be the secondary for attack speed with QStaff ?

 

[Lotoc]

The Shintao capstone seems pretty insane. Would it now make sense to try and get 41 points in Shintao and HeM be the secondary for attack speed with QStaff ?

the henshin capstone is +1 crit multi as long as you're in cauldron and cauldron has 30 second cooldown/30 second duration, if you're at the point of going 41 shintao you may as well go t5 shintao and play a shintao staff build, you won't be able to fit henshin t5s alongside haste boost from vkf or NiS.

 

[Jasparius]

the henshin capstone is +1 crit multi as long as you're in cauldron and cauldron has 30 second cooldown/30 second duration, if you're at the point of going 41 shintao you may as well go t5 shintao and play a shintao staff build, you won't be able to fit henshin t5s alongside haste boost from vkf or NiS.

Yep, HeM is pretty nice but you are movement restricted by Cauldron. Shintao seems well ahead though, with 25MP and +2W all the timr. And Empty Hand Mastery looks to work with staves.

The only downside is a lot of Wis if youre a Str staff build. But HeM also mostly focusses on Wis.

 

[Kalibano]

The Shintao capstone in very enticing indeed. It does require Meditation of War in Shintao T5 to grant the extra 10 melee power for a total of +25, which would mean going T5 Shintao as well.

I personally prefer what's available in Henshin for T4 and even T5, and I find the crit multiplier (while in Cauldron) in the capstone well worth the investment, since the Cauldron is super flexible ref movement in combat, and can be re-cast pretty much as soon as it is finished.
To be a bit more specific:

• 12 action points is the absolute minimum I would personally spend in Ninja Spy to get haste boost and core 3. For an extra 2 action points, I get AoE blindness/daze via Flash Bang, which I find very handy and personally use a lot
• Tier 4 Shintao: apart from Tomb of Jade, the rest is pretty lackluster
  • WIS is the same in Henshin
  • Instinctive Defense is not great
  • Shintao Studies can't be taken if the 'training' line is taken in Henshin
  • Greater Hands of Harm is nice, but I get a similar de-buff effect in Ninja Spy for an extra 2 action points above the min I would spend in NS, and to get it in Shintao, I would need to spend 3 to go from my current 18 spent to 21
  • So pretty much just Tomb of Jade, but my build already has a ton of CC options, including Kata of Dark Stars from Henshin T4
• T5 Henshin:
  • apart from the things Shintao and Henshin have in common (25% HP; +1 crit range and multi; +3 hit & dmg from the 'training' line of enhancements from T1-T5)
  • I personally love the AoE healing every 6 seconds via Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light, and this is an extra active attack with 20% extra dmg
  • Void Strike is pretty cool too as an extra active attack with 30% extra dmg, +1 crit range and multi, and the chance to insta-kill with no save on vorpal strikes
• T5 Shintao:
  • if given the choice of +5 dodge cap (Shintao's T5 Meditation of War in Ocean Stance, which is my stance of choice 100% of the time) OR +5 MRR cap (Henshin's T5 Self Defense) I'd personally still pick extra MRR cap. Both are highly useful, but I find MRR cap essential for dealing with magical dmg particularly in endgame raids, and sources of this kind of bonus are quite rare
  • Kukan-Do is great for sure (despite not affecting sightless creatures), but this build does not lack sources of CC, so I wouldn't particularly go all the way to T5 because of this. This is not an active attack per se: T5 Shintao doesn't have extra active attacks like Henshin
  • Rise of the Phoenix is super handy especially on raid wipes, but not a deal maker for me to go T5 here
  • Violence Begets Violence is strong, but I feel the crit multiplier from the Henshin capstone (while in cauldron, with pratically 100% upkeep) is potentially stronger:
    • picking both involves Henshin 41 APs for capstone and at least 32 APs for T5 Shintao and only this one T5 ability. Not taking most (if not all) T5 abilities is rarely ideal, and doing so involves little/no APs left for Ninja Spy and haste boost
    • so if you gotta pick one, I'd go Henshin crit multi Cauldron

Shintao would be viable for sure, but the above works pretty well for me and my playstyle. Not necessarily saying this is meta in any sense

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

Some thoughts. DDO heavily punishes builds that try to do two things (ranged and melee, for instance). I can't think of any logical reason anyone should take 10K stars over Spring Attack. Not having enough ranged in LoB isn't a logical reason. If a THF build needs ranged in Den of Vipers, you aren't doing it right (and Spring Attack can get you anywhere you need to be in that raid per head DPS, for example).

In real DDO combat scenarios, Cauldron of Flame is very situational. If you're questing, everyone is zerging and it has no use. If you raid, it can have a use, but that's going to depend on the raid, so it would be great for Fire Over Morgrave but not great for Threats (since the Dragon bounces around). Since Cauldron figures into Henshin pretty heavily, that's a big problem. And while it can be solved going Shintao T5, you end up having to take a lot of filler in Shintao as a QS using Monk.

I'm pretty sure the whole thing functions better as a 14 Monk, 6 Dragonlord, and going STR based. Yes, I lose Dismissing and Jade Strike, but everything dies so fast, when are you using those anyway outside of R10? And the roar is arguably much better than having them. You'll also get more feats that way and can take Stunning Blow, which will work since you're STR-based.

An unavoidable problem is that the whole build is healing challenged in high-reaper. You have to go T5 in Henshin to get Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light now, and it's not like that ability can even heal you (though great for the party) in R10. Adding Dragonlord doesn't appreciably help that either. High attack speed, easy strikethrough, quick cutter and Grandmaster Destiny will make for an at times amazing build that feels great. But there are underlying weaknesses that are difficult to surmount. Almost feels like the Death Star, can feel like a planet killer in places with a compromised system.

 

[Jasparius]

I go Str based with QStaff rather than Wis as well.

I do wonder how much more filler there is in Shintao than in HeM. My thinking is if constantly moving its worth a couple of filler points to go Shintao. Cauldron capstone for HeM is nice but as you say, situational.

How much more would 6 DL give over pure 20 ?

 

[Kalibano]

Some thoughts. DDO heavily punishes builds that try to do two things (ranged and melee, for instance). I can't think of any logical reason anyone should take 10K stars over Spring Attack. Not having enough ranged in LoB isn't a logical reason. If a THF build needs ranged in Den of Vipers, you aren't doing it right (and Spring Attack can get you anywhere you need to be in that raid per head DPS, for example).

In real DDO combat scenarios, Cauldron of Flame is very situational. If you're questing, everyone is zerging and it has no use. If you raid, it can have a use, but that's going to depend on the raid, so it would be great for Fire Over Morgrave but not great for Threats (since the Dragon bounces around). Since Cauldron figures into Henshin pretty heavily, that's a big problem. And while it can be solved going Shintao T5, you end up having to take a lot of filler in Shintao as a QS using Monk.

I'm pretty sure the whole thing functions better as a 14 Monk, 6 Dragonlord, and going STR based. Yes, I lose Dismissing and Jade Strike, but everything dies so fast, when are you using those anyway outside of R10? And the roar is arguably much better than having them. You'll also get more feats that way and can take Stunning Blow, which will work since you're STR-based.

An unavoidable problem is that the whole build is healing challenged in high-reaper. You have to go T5 in Henshin to get Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light now, and it's not like that ability can even heal you (though great for the party) in R10. Adding Dragonlord doesn't appreciably help that either. High attack speed, easy strikethrough, quick cutter and Grandmaster Destiny will make for an at times amazing build that feels great. But there are underlying weaknesses that are difficult to surmount. Almost feels like the Death Star, can feel like a planet killer in places with a compromised system.

Hi Marshal,

Really appreciate you taking the time to share some thoughts

The first thing I wanted to do when the monk revamp happened was go STR based, since it's more synergistic with THF in general (i.e. req for the feat line), not to mention still being the ability that can reach the highest value due to buffs/bonuses only available to STR.

This might still happen, but it will definitely need to wait for when I have more free time, the kind that is enough to cope with working on new gear tetris for this alt specifically: that will be the point when I often consider potential build changes too.

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In the meantime, some considerations that are important to me personally, and that I am keeping in mind while contemplating this change:

Ref my current build and some of my current brainstorming around potential changes:

• Ocean Stance is a must for me: I would not give up the defensiveness it grants. So that's -4 STR for not going Fire stance, while still getting +4 WIS.
• Multiclassing means missing out on the capstone:
  • that's -4 WIS, but it also means not getting a +X STR from a capstone. So despite being a STR build, so far there's +8 WIS still gained here, and +0 STR.
  • it also means -5 hit & dmg while in Cauldron, which means +10 STR needed just to be at the same level as this build, since there is no +hit & dmg line in the DL tree (even if there were, it would need to compete with investing in strikethrough, trance, haste boost, dragon's roar, etc., so AP would likely be tight, with potential loses elsewhere to achieve this)
  • the -15 Melee Power also lost from C6 alone (an extra -3 from C5 if that is dropped too) can't be easily recovered via DL alone
  • it will be useful to think how much extra STR (above what can be reached with WIS builds) would be used just to compensate for what was lost: would the remaining end up at a similar-ish dmg level as this? There's STR trance being higher than WIS, so I am aware there is more at play here
• Quivering Palm is non negotiable for me: I use it all the time and find it essential for my personal aims and playstyle (I am starting to be convinced that the insta-kill hits multiple targets, but not managed to be fully sure during combat). The lucky bit is that it can use STR now, but this also means a minimum 15 levels of monk on any multiclass build I would consider
• By going into the Dragonlord tree, something needs to give in my current AP distribution:
  • DL will give haste boost, which would make Ninja Spy seem less desirable. However, I would likely still spend at least 11 APs in Ninja Spy, as defensiveness is important to me (i.e. core 3 and T2 max dodge)
  • Henshin is here to stay: my 'DDO reality' is one where Cauldron of Flame is used all the time, so it's far from situational: it's practically non-negotiable. And it's not just about the dmg via crit multi, it also grants really nice defensiveness. For it to be 'viable' (i.e. being able to move freely around it, and have its cooldown halved for practically 100% upkeep), I need to go all the way to core 5 (min 31 APs), and a minimum 18 levels of monk. If I spend this much here, I go T5 here too. Losing C6 also means losing 1 crit multiplier... and you don't get anything that powerful via a DL splash really.
  • So it's likely Shintao would have to go: strikethrough can be acquired back via DL, but not doublestrike (both in T1, and the massive T2 morale bonus). I would also really miss Fists of Light and Hand of Harm (auto crit is super good, especially with the Cauldron extra crit multi). DL instead gives an amazing CC ability via Dragon's Roar, but CC is definitely not a weakness in the current build: there is simply tons of it, more than most other builds I have.
• The amount of healing I currently have is very consequential for me and others, and is an aspect of the build I am not willing to give up. The combination of Fists of Light (healing shield), Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light (every 6 seconds), and the Eye of Mabar augment (every hit) make enough difference for me in the difficulties I run both solo and with groups. Others are free to choose differently, ofc.
• Cauldron and Incinerating wave only use WIS in their formula, otherwise half damage. This is something I could live with tbh, if going STR-based
• STR builds would need the 'upgraded' form of Primal Scream, and I don't really want to go FoTW over neither SD nor LD. Pretty happy with my destiny choices, including GMoF Epic strike with it's extra CC and crit range + multi bonuses, instead of Quick Cutter: this suits my playstyle perfectly, and being consodered by some meta or not is fully inconsequential to me.

These, in particular, seem to be causing the most problem in terms of 'getting what I really want out of a potential new build':

• If going STR, Dragonlord becomes a 'forced' choice because of the STR trance. That requires at least 3 levels DL, which despite letting me have Quivering Palm, would sadly lock me out of Henshin C5-6, which means Cauldron would indeed become extremely situational, and mostly for the defenses. At the moment, this is a potential deal breaker for me tbh.

All in all, the balance is kinda tipping towards WIS, but we'll see when the time comes.
I sincerely feel pure monk is in a great spot right now: the trees give everything they need and more.
Wish I had more free time to deal faster with everything I wanna do with all my alts, that's for sure!

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Further to this, ref DDO in general (since this definitely affects my personal choices):

• Perceptions about 'real DDO scenarios' are heavily shaped by subjective views and preferences, as well as people's individual 'realities':
  • some have all past lives in the book with a LOT of passive power, a very large number don't, and likely will never get
  • some have perfect gear, many don't (and might not even aim for that)
  • some only group with others who all play the same broken builds, others don't
  • some need to have the highest stats and kill counts, some find several other aspects of the game much more fun/rewarding
  • some only run with guildies, others don't
  • some never PUG, some frequently do
  • some have the luxury of always having all key roles covered in quests they do, many don't, and frequently run without healers, tanks, etc.
  • some need to push difficulties in raids/quests, some don't find the need to
  • some need to zerg to have fun, some absolutely hate zerging
  • what makes DDO fun for some, is an absolute bore for others
  • All in all, the combination of the above, in my opinion, shape the 'real DDO scenarios' that each person experience when in game. This makes it pretty hard to make black and white assertions about gaming experience as if they represent everyone's reality, or even what everyone wants/aims for
• I don't build for solo R10s, 'R10 or nothing' is not my philosophy and neither an aim of mine. I can see why some do that, but it's not something I am personally interested in doing at the moment. All my builds will reflect that
• I don't ever build anything around the current 'meta', but definitely never around 'realities' created by 'broken builds' (e.g. currently Inquisitive). I've been around since 2006, and have seen plenty of broken things come and go (e.g. monk, warlock, the 'previous' inquisitive, nukers, etc.). They are fully inconsequential to my decisions. So, for instance, some might argue that defenses are not really needed because groups zerg a lot and all Inquisitives kill everything in seconds before melees even get there. This is simply a picture of a current temporary situation, which is likely to change anyway, and will bear no weight in any of my decision making
• I don't personally like to max damage at the cost of minimal defenses. That's a personal choice that suits me and my playstyle, and to be honest, is quite likely to benefit those who don't/can't have the very soft cushion of a ton of past lives available right from the shores of Korthos beach

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Thanks again for the input, lots of good food for thought

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

6 DL isn't vital, can be accomplished with 5 if QP is a requirement. I'd like to hear how you use Cauldron all the time in actual questing situations. Agreed that you need to go DL for STR trance if going STR. Agreed that Enhancement points are extremely tight. Off the top of my head, I'd say it's 35ish in DL, 11 Shintao, 25ish in Henshin, 2 Falconry, X racial depending on your points and tomes, and working under the consideration that the build has access to 85 or so points from expansion tomes. This still gives a few points to play around with. As you say, not everyone has the extra points. Even accounting for people playing the game differently, I don't see any justification of 10K over Spring Attack. At best, you can argue 10K is OoL, but isn't Spring Attack even more QoL? Or maybe you just want a shuriken option because of flavor or role-playing, which is fine, but Spring Attack is going to be a better choice for people looking for a build. Whether or not defenses matter is going to determine if a player quests on R10. If someone is a R1 leveler then I wouldn't spend anything on defense because it isn't needed. If one is going to stay at cap and raid and pick up reaper points, then it is advisable to get defenses (although the build is still healing-challenged in those situations, regardless of going pure or MC).

How much more would 6 DL give over pure 20 ?

TBD, mainly the STR trance if you're STR, which is big. I'm going to run a pure Monk (Shintao T5 and Henshin T5 on different epic lives) to see which works better and then compare it to a DL version of the Monk QS build. I'll let you both know.

 

[Jasparius]

6 DL isn't vital, can be accomplished with 5 if QP is a requirement. I'd like to hear how you use Cauldron all the time in actual questing situations. Agreed that you need to go DL for STR trance if going STR. Agreed that Enhancement points are extremely tight. Off the top of my head, I'd say it's 35ish in DL, 11 Shintao, 25ish in Henshin, 2 Falconry, X racial depending on your points and tomes, and working under the consideration that the build has access to 85 or so points from expansion tomes. This still gives a few points to play around with. As you say, not everyone has the extra points. Even accounting for people playing the game differently, I don't see any justification of 10K over Spring Attack. At best, you can argue 10K is OoL, but isn't Spring Attack even more QoL? Or maybe you just want a shuriken option because of flavor or role-playing, which is fine, but Spring Attack is going to be a better choice for people looking for a build. Whether or not defenses matter is going to determine if a player quests on R10. If someone is a R1 leveler then I wouldn't spend anything on defense because it isn't needed. If one is going to stay at cap and raid and pick up reaper points, then it is advisable to get defenses (although the build is still healing-challenged in those situations, regardless of going pure or MC).


TBD, mainly the STR trance if you're STR, which is big. I'm going to run a pure Monk (Shintao T5 and Henshin T5 on different epic lives) to see which works better and then compare it to a DL version of the Monk QS build. I'll let you both know.

Im keen to get to 20 to try out Shintao T5 and Capstone, with T4 and level 18 core for HeM. Im doing Str Monk again next life so can try 6 DL then. I have a feeling they will be close as Shintao capstone and HeM cores up to level 18 is a LOT of MP, weapon damage and Imbues.

I suspect at cap the huge Str you can get means the DL trance hits hard, but if just levelling it feels like its not enough.

Will be good to see some results.

Cheers.

 

[Kalibano]

6 DL isn't vital, can be accomplished with 5 if QP is a requirement. I'd like to hear how you use Cauldron all the time in actual questing situations. Agreed that you need to go DL for STR trance if going STR. Agreed that Enhancement points are extremely tight. Off the top of my head, I'd say it's 35ish in DL, 11 Shintao, 25ish in Henshin, 2 Falconry, X racial depending on your points and tomes, and working under the consideration that the build has access to 85 or so points from expansion tomes. This still gives a few points to play around with. As you say, not everyone has the extra points. Even accounting for people playing the game differently, I don't see any justification of 10K over Spring Attack. At best, you can argue 10K is OoL, but isn't Spring Attack even more QoL? Or maybe you just want a shuriken option because of flavor or role-playing, which is fine, but Spring Attack is going to be a better choice for people looking for a build. Whether or not defenses matter is going to determine if a player quests on R10. If someone is a R1 leveler then I wouldn't spend anything on defense because it isn't needed. If one is going to stay at cap and raid and pick up reaper points, then it is advisable to get defenses (although the build is still healing-challenged in those situations, regardless of going pure or MC).


TBD, mainly the STR trance if you're STR, which is big. I'm going to run a pure Monk (Shintao T5 and Henshin T5 on different epic lives) to see which works better and then compare it to a DL version of the Monk QS build. I'll let you both know.

• I use Cauldron all the time it is off timer, as the new cooldown allows it to be cast again as soon as the cd is finished: practically every encounter, sometimes more than once per encounter, depending on the quest, part of the quest, difficulty, who I am fighting etc. If it's not on during an encounter, it's because it's been finished quickly already, so to me personally, it's inconsequential if it was on or off tbh: I only need it on when there are mobs to fight.
  • I've recently been actively avoiding grouping with inquisitives, since they are ruining my fun in general: perhaps that is a key differing aspect between our actual gaming experience? There could be a million other different things in our playstyle, who knows
  • not sure how helpful it will be to understanding why cauldron works for me in actual gaming situations, but I've delved a little into some personal playstyle details in the section just below

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• My builds are not aimed directly at full beginners, but tend to help that specific group because they assume no/little past lives, nor other very rare things only a small number of players have the compulsion, determination and/or time to acquire.
  • one consequence of the above is that, investing in some defensiveness and survival, at the cost of not reaching absolute max dmg, in my view, is a worthy balance to seek (as per suggestions I share in this thread). It's a strategy I've used for years, and am happy to continue using for the moment
• They are not built with R10 solo in mind, but I personally run R6-10 endgame content with groups everyday: it's what I do, the core aspect of my daily gaming experience, since I am highly disinterested in repeating the 'boring braindead zergy TR hamster wheel' over and over again!
  • I rarely run any content below that difficulty, unless I am solo farming specific items or S/M augments, where speed is generally preferable, but still force myself to go at least R1 for some rxp: it becomes a necessity when you wanna level reaper trees on 23 alts.
• My levelling up to endgame is normally solo; R4 (sometimes 6, depends a lot on the alt/build), even at heroic levels (that's right, even in heroic, where it's so not meta to get rxp lol). It's part of my fun, being bored zerging stuff on elite is not. I like challenges, and since I TR infrequently, this feels great to me when I do.
  • I only run certain quests on my way to cap each life, normally involving heroic loot (expansions mostly), raid flagging and favor basically
• Excessive zerging in general does not feel fun to me. What feels like a 'slog' or 'too zergy' is highly likely to be perceived differently, based on what each of us is used to, aims for, is happy to tolerate, but most importantly, based on what makes gaming feel fun.
• None of the above are 'negotiable', and frankly, not even 'debatable': they are factual statements of how I chose to spend my time in the game, so that I have fun. None of it needs to be logical to anyone other than me. I pay VIP since 2006 to be here having fun!

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- Back to the builds, some further thoughts:

• I do include tomes (inc from expansions), so I am also assuming 85 action points
• Your AP plan seems interesting: DL T5 is indeed desirable mostly because of the +2 crit multip. However, it's the same as this build, as mine gets +1 multiplier in T5 and +1 stackable from the Cauldron, for a total of +2.
• Where would you get crit range with your AP split?
• If going for Quivering Palm, I'd personally strongly recommend spending at least 8 APs in Falconry for assassinate DCs:
  • Lack of past lives and/or super rare bonuses are not the only issue
  • despite currently being able to acquire the same bonus sources and values from gear, trees and EDs as sunder, trip and stun, Assassinate sadly does NOT benefit from trances,
  • so every single point helps bridge the gap between what assassinate can reach and mob saves, which currently seem to be balanced around the much-higher values that trance-affecting tactics can reach
  • this is likely to make the few extra APs to play around even tighter
• DL tree has a ton of fillers too, particularly past T3: mostly a lot of tactical DCs throughout. The T4 inflict elemental vulnerability via Sunder is neat, would help the fire dmg if you use the Henshin ki spells, and/or the element of your imbue dmg (fire or not).
  • T5 (apart from the usual +HP%) gives a leap (important for some), and 2 upgrades to Dragon's Roar to make it desirable (helpless and the cooldown one). The MRR bonus is restricted by MRR cap, so though nice, it might be more than the some players can manage without heavy investment in MRR cap via set bonuses. Not much more than that really.
• This isn't to say my way is the best/only way to build: absolutely the opposite. Mine is one possible way, and one that works great for me personally: I share it in case it suits the playstyle of others who want to give it a go
• I am grateful you shared thoughts on an alternative way of building it. I am unlikely to ever be convinced there are black and white ways of doing anything in the game: the more restrictive/prescriptive a playstyle is (e.g. meta), the less likely it is for me to feel happy playing it

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- Ref 10k stars:

• I already covered it in this thread (quoted below for ease of access), and it's a major non-issue for me: very happy to keep it. If it bothers those who want to try the build, they can easily pick something else

I personally find it very useful on some occasions. For instance, literally just ran a pug R1 Legendary Lord of the Blades with only one ranged character. It was pretty nice swapping to ranged and being able to contribute meaningfully. That raid was followed by R1 Legendary Master Artificer, and helping take the boss down at the end with the shuriken was pretty good. Den of Vipers is another place where I find myself pulling the shuriken once in a while (to pull the chopped heads towards me in the circles, to help take down a Mist Stalker from afar, or even to damage the Hydra a bit: she hits like a truck at melee range sometimes).

Abundant Step (monk inherent feat) for me is enough to leap about: I personally don't feel the need for another leap. Up to you really, hopefully my reasoning helps you make up your mind

N.B. The glorious days when we would complain about the lack of ranged characters in those raids lol. Now Inquisitives are just like those annoying mosquitos, everywhere. At least they adjusted the dmg done by the Hydra, so it's possible to engage in melee combat (well, at least those who bother with some defensiveness can take a couple of hits )

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Look forward to hearing more about your experience levelling all those variations you mentioned, if you don't mind sharing it here ofc
Alternatives are a great thing for anyone coming here seeking ideas of what to do. As long as the one you settle for works perfectly for you, your playstyle and your personal aims, and you have fun, then in my books you're on to a winner!

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

I'm level 9 on a pure monk, 1/2 orc, WIS build. I picked orc because I wanted the racial life and might mess around in the tree if I have points ( always like lock bash). I don't think race matters, as several have options based on what you like. Human (bonus feat which is very useful if going pure), Aasimar (WIS and healing hands), Tabaxi (many synergies) all have their merits. Some of this stuff will depend on what your character has PL-wise, mine is a heroic completionist but only a few racials. At L3, I had 137 HPs, and the average hit was about 56 dmg with 112ish on Crits. I soloed the new Sauhagin Sleeping with the Fishes harbor quest on R1 when I was level 4. When filling out my Reaper trees at 4 I realized that unless you have over 90-95 reaper points you're going to lose 2 points of WIS vs instead of STR since you also have to go up the Caster tree getting a bunch of stuff you don't want for the extra WIS you'd automatically get in the melee tree with STR. I felt robust and liked the character immediately.

It gets better. This plays incredibly strong. Once you get Swords to Plowshares and Whirlwind Attack at L6, it becomes S tier. I had incredible DPS in Feywild one-shotting groups of mobs routinely with Whirlwind attack. I would strongly urge players to take WWA at L6 (which also means you must take Dodge and Mobility before then). This is one of the strongest low-level builds I've played. Simply dominating. I'm using Elemental Bloom and a 5-piece IoD, 4-piece Feywild set. Crits in Feywild (L7/8) were in the 300-400 range. Hit points at 9 are 344 outside of Reaper. Melee power was 25 at L4, 35 at L5, and 45 at L7. I've gone up the Henshin tree with 7 points in Shintao so far (spending universals and racial as you see fit otherwise). I barely used any cure serious potions in Feywild because I was wrecking mobs so fast with WWA and THF strikethrough. How fast? I could often delete mob packs faster than our Warlock could get off blasts.

These monk trees are loaded. Probably the best-designed trees in the game now because they have both awesome offensive focuses and have defensive perks as well. I've thrown down Cauldron in a few boss fights to test it out. Notably more beneficial. Not practical right now in heroic quests, though because everything dies so fast.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Not practical right now in heroic quests, though because everything dies so fast.

It's very good for ranged toons: throw Cauldron, begin kill distanced mobs, behold how melee mobs melted in Cauldron... 8)

 

[Kalibano]

I'm level 9 on a pure monk, 1/2 orc, WIS build. I picked orc because I wanted the racial life and might mess around in the tree if I have points ( always like lock bash). I don't think race matters, as several have options based on what you like. Human (bonus feat which is very useful if going pure), Aasimar (WIS and healing hands), Tabaxi (many synergies) all have their merits. Some of this stuff will depend on what your character has PL-wise, mine is a heroic completionist but only a few racials. At L3, I had 137 HPs, and the average hit was about 56 dmg with 112ish on Crits. I soloed the new Sauhagin Sleeping with the Fishes harbor quest on R1 when I was level 4. When filling out my Reaper trees at 4 I realized that unless you have over 90-95 reaper points you're going to lose 2 points of WIS vs instead of STR since you also have to go up the Caster tree getting a bunch of stuff you don't want for the extra WIS you'd automatically get in the melee tree with STR. I felt robust and liked the character immediately.

It gets better. This plays incredibly strong. Once you get Swords to Plowshares and Whirlwind Attack at L6, it becomes S tier. I had incredible DPS in Feywild one-shotting groups of mobs routinely with Whirlwind attack. I would strongly urge players to take WWA at L6 (which also means you must take Dodge and Mobility before then). This is one of the strongest low-level builds I've played. Simply dominating. I'm using Elemental Bloom and a 5-piece IoD, 4-piece Feywild set. Crits in Feywild (L7/8) were in the 300-400 range. Hit points at 9 are 344 outside of Reaper. Melee power was 25 at L4, 35 at L5, and 45 at L7. I've gone up the Henshin tree with 7 points in Shintao so far (spending universals and racial as you see fit otherwise). I barely used any cure serious potions in Feywild because I was wrecking mobs so fast with WWA and THF strikethrough. How fast? I could often delete mob packs faster than our Warlock could get off blasts.

These monk trees are loaded. Probably the best-designed trees in the game now because they have both awesome offensive focuses and have defensive perks as well. I've thrown down Cauldron in a few boss fights to test it out. Notably more beneficial. Not practical right now in heroic quests, though because everything dies so fast.

This sounds great Marshal! Thanks a bunch for sharing your experience running it, and the choices/variations you made.
WWA is awesome in heroics, and taking it at level 6 like you said is a fantastic choice.

The monk trees are in great shape indeed, I'm very hesitant to MC, just so happy being pure. It will be great to have your insight into WIS vs STR and the races that worked best for you.

Look forward to reading more when/if you get a chance to share.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

Tomb of Jade and buttons, buttons, buttons

I wanted to share my thoughts on Tomb of Jade and the button requirements of this build. Tomb of Jade is one of those rare DDO abilities that has almost no utility in heroics but becomes extremely good in epics. There isn't much need to encase a mob during the heroic blitz. However, in epics, stopping champions and reapers has more priority. Tomb of Jade also benefits from strikethrough so you can encase multiple reapers, champions, elementals, etc, with one hit. Tomb of Jade is so good in epics that it would be hard to play a monk without it once you've used it. The ramifications of this are that you'll need to work in 22 APs into Shintao during character building.

Monk has so many good abilities now, the hotbar and mouse begin to get overloaded. Unlike spell casting, where spells have cooldowns and you can get to them on other bars, melee combat is fluid, and especially as a monk, very fast. Fitting everything into an accessible area is difficult. Therefore, even with the changes making monk less button intensive, it is still a high ceiling build. Here is what I consider needed at L22: Quick Strike, Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light, Whirlwind Attack, Hand of Harm, Void Strike, Cauldron, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Reaper's Strike, Clear Mind, Haste Boost, Spring Attack, Two Jade Strikes, Two Katas of Ice. My mouse has reachable buttons (several more that are too awkward to get to in a fluid manner) where I put WWA, Quick Cutter, and Shadows. The rest goes on hot bar 1 thru 0. But we have 13 abilities for 10 slots. And this doesn't account for a heal button like Renewal. Now your mouse might hold more, and you might be able to use tool bars to greater effect in melee, but for me, if a melee button isn't on the top 10, then that means it's more than likely not going to be used often. Because of this, I've more or less banished the Katas and Jade Strike. But Jade Strike does have a debuff, so it's going to be useful in raids. Which means I will likely put Reaper's Strike above the main 10. Even so, that means I won't easily be able to hit haste boost and Reaper's strike (although again, in raids where Jade Strike is more useful, some will be run on LH where I won't have Reaper's Strike anyway). How has your use of Kata gone? The upgraded dancing part is another form of CC, but I don't know if I will ever actually use it.

Cauldron is far more useful in epics than heroics, but I can see how you trigger it a lot. It's certainly doable. I use it with large mob concentrations. Usually, my pattern of engagement is Spring attack into a mob, then quick cutter then WWA. This kills the initial group. If more mobs are drawn in and attacking me, I drop cauldron.

Weapon wise I went with Elemental Bloom from 6 to 18, then am using Bone Breaker, and I'll switch to Sireth at 23 up to 30. I'm very pleased with all three of these DPS staffs.