Kali's Wizard Pale Master Insta-kill + CC Caster build

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Welcome to my build repository! I've been playing since 2006, and I play to have fun: I don't really care about 'the META'. I have 23 alts, so I actively play practically every class and race available in the game. I design all my builds fully from scratch. Hope you find them useful, and constructive comments/ suggestions are always welcome!

If you would like to contribute towards this effort, any donations will be greatly appreciated. If not, please don't worry: sharing is caring! Just sit back and relax, and enjoy the builds!

5. Kali's Wizard Pale Master Insta-kill + CC caster build
DDOBuilder file for this build. You can find and download Maetrim's DDOBuilder here.
Wiz-Pale-Master-Avatar.jpg


Preface to the build

This thread aims to provide the very 'core' of the build:
  • show how it started: its key aims
  • indicate the key decisions that can be made to achieve those aims: stats, skills, feats, heroic enhancements, epic destinies
  • all numbers are based on what a first-lifer (or someone with minimal past lives) would have, unbuffed, outside of reaper mode (they do, however, include equipped gear and partially completed filigrees). They are real characters, and those are the numbers I can offer.
  • numbers are indicative of the potential minimum amounts that can be achieved with the investments that were proposed
  • provide a 'photo' of what your character could look like at endgame during quite a few lives of their 'TR hamster wheel' journey
  • show the 'foundations' to be built upon, if a player decides to embark on the 'TR hamster wheel' and go out there to hunt for rare bonuses
  • gear choices are NOT part of the core build, but rather one of the most important ways to invest in the key elements of the core build to make the aims work. It has been added here simply to suggest options/ inspire. No promises are being made towards keeping this updated upon the release of new content.

DISCLAIMER: nobody in real life has been injured on the making of this thread, and nobody will suffer injuries in real life if they try it. DDO is an awesome game, and trying-and-testing + making changes to suit your specific play style are a very healthy aspect of the game. It's how you learn and get better! Try not to stress too much about what some people have to say about how you play your game. Not everyone gets that this is a game, that people are not the same, and don't want the same things! The Mountain has many paths. Have fun!

Aims of the build

Primary aim(s):
1. Insta-kill enemies (9 spells)
> AoE (3):​
Necromancy
> 'Circle of Death'
> 'Wail of Banshee'
> vs undead: 'Undeath to death'
> Single target (6):
Illusion
> 'Phantasmal Killer' x3 on separate cooldowns!
Necromancy
> 'Finger of Death'
> 'Power Word: Kill'
Conjuration
> 'Trap the Soul'
Secondary aim(s):
2. Crowd Control:
> AoE:​
> Wizard spells:​
Enchantment
> 'Mass Hold Monster'
> 'Otto's Dance Sphere'
> 'Symbol of Stunning'
> vs undead: 'Hault undead'
Conjuration
> 'Web'
> Magus of Eclipse:
NO Save
> 'Dark Moonlight: Nightwind [C4]'
> 'Time Stop [T5]'
> Deep Gnome:
Illusion
> 'Greater Color Spray [T2]'
> Dino crafting:
NO Save
> 'Salt effect'
> Single-target:
> Wizard spells:​
Enchantment
> 'Otto's Irresistible Dance'
> 'Dominate Monster'
Transmutation
> 'Flesh to Stone'
> Magus of Eclipse:​
Necromancy
> 'Gloomspear: Greater Beams [T4]'
3. Enemy de-buffs:
> Strip Negative energy immunity (for 20s):​
> Pale Master's 'Unholy Avatar [T4]'
> Reduce Spell Resistance:​
> Magus​
> 'Gloomspear [T1]' {3 stacks of shattermantle}
> 'Flash of the Eclipse [T2]' {1 stack of shattermantle, every 5 secs}
> 'Nullmagic strike [T3]' {-4 SR: 15% chance on offensive spellcast}
> Inflict stacks of Vulnerability:
> Magus' 'Gloomspear: Lunar Imbuement [T3]'
4. Moderate offensive casting: Negative + Force + Cold + Acid

Key stats & synergies

My preferred Quickbar layout (in case it's useful):
Wiz-Pale-Master-Key-abilities-toolbar.jpg


A. Main Spell DCs:
> Illusion (118+)
> Extra Illusion DCs:​
> Deep Gnome [T3]​
> Magus Eclipse [T2] (Phantasmal killer is a fear spell)​
> Necromancy (117+)
> Enchantment (108+)​
> Conjuration (107+)​

B. Reduced spell cooldowns (faster killing!)
> -10%: Shadowdancer 'Shadowcaster [T3]'​
(Potential for more, if you already have extra bonuses from past lives, etc. :)
by swapping 2x 'Inevitable Grave' filigrees + 2x 'Zarigan's' for 4x 'Dragonsoul' filigrees = -10% (set bonus)

C. High spell penetration:
> Pale Master cores (3-6)​
> Archmage [T3]​
> Magus Elicpse [T3 & C4]​

D. Main Spell Powers:
Wiz-Pale-Master-Spellpowers.jpg

> buffable:
> Metamagic feats​
> +150 Spell Power: Maximise Spell
> +75 Spell Power: Empower Spell
E. Survivability (after all, soul stones do zero dps):
> Hit Points bonus = +10%:​
Legendary bonus
> +10%: Winter set​
> Strong self-healing:​
> 3x 'Death Auras' (all stack)​
> 'Negative Energy Burst' (spell)​
> Evasion:​
> Shadowdancer [C3]​
> INT for Reflex saves: 'Insightful reflexes' (feat)​
> MRR cap increase:​
> Magus 'Lunar Studies [T4]'​
> Concealment = 50%:​
> 'Displacement' (spell)​
I share some strategies for general defensiveness and survival in this thread. Come visit if you feel it could be useful to you!

The 'core elements' of the build


Class(es): Wizard (20)
Race: Deep Gnome
Alignment: Any
Main stat: Intelligence (level ups here)
Starting stats (34 pts): STR: 08/ DEX: 08/ CON: 18/ INT: 20/ WIS: 10/ CHA: 06
Skills: Spellcraft/ Heal / Use Magic Device/ Jump/ Tumble/ (any)

Feats:
Wiz-Pale-Master-Feats.jpg


Heroic enhancements: 83 = 80 + 2 (Racial tomes) + 1 (Universal tome)
Wiz-Pale-Master-Heroic-enhancs.jpg

N.B: Multi-selector choices (cores):
> Pale Master:​
> C3: Beacon of Enchantment​
> C4: Beacon of Necromancy​
> C5: Deathly tough​
> Archmage:​
> Illusion​

Epic Destinies: 65 = 61 + 1 (Tome of Fate +3) + 2 (Fey & Dread tomes) + 1 (Historic tome)
Wiz-Pale-Master-Epic-Destinies.jpg

N.B: ED multi-selector choices:
> Magus of the Eclipse:​
> T1: Gloomspear​
> T2: Flash of the Eclipse​
> T2: Dark Light of the Moon​
> T3: Necromancy DCs​
> T3: Nullmagic Strike​
> T5: Moon's Shadow​
> Shadowdancer:​
> T3: Shadowcaster​
> T3: Illusion DCs​
> Primal Avatar:​
> T1: Spider of the Deeps​
> T2: Spirit Boon: Mind​
> T3: Conjuration DCs​

Spells:
Wiz-Pale-Master-Spells.jpg


Suggestions for gear
(not part of the core build: choices based on what supports the main aims of the build best, with the intention to suggest/ inspire)

Gear Set bonuses:
Wiz-Pale-Master-Gear-Set-bonuses.jpg


Gear:
(PS: Some choices ref gear cater to a much larger personal scheme/tetris where items need to get shared between several alts at endgame, where I
normally play in reaper mode 6-10 skulls).

Wiz-Pale-Master-Gear-set-labelled.jpg


Rings-of-Spell-Storing.jpg


Most important augments to slot:
+2 profane/ +1 except All Ability scores
+5 insight/ +2 festive Intelligence
+6 equip Illusion & Necromancy DCs
+2 enhanc Illusion; Necromancy; Conjuration & Enchantment DCs
+5% insight All Spell Critical chance
+261 enhanc/ +100 insight Spell Points
+19 Spellcraft & Heal skills
+2 festive Constitution
+32 Sheltering/ +10 resist All Saves
Meridiam Fragment / Crystal Drop of Tea

(Suggestions for where to slot them in the DDOBuilder file for this build).


Main Filigree Set bonuses:
Wiz-Pale-Master-Filigree-Set-bonuses.jpg


Filigrees: 14 = 10 (weapon) + 4 (artefact)
Wiz-Pale-Master-Filigrees-all.jpg


Filigree master plan:
  1. Primarily invest in Spell DC and Intelligence.
  2. Spell Power goes as secondary aim, if/when possible to squeeze in
  3. other effects get the least priority


I am always happy to read, consider and respond to constructive comments/ suggestions / feedback that are provided in a polite and friendly manner. I welcome discussions with anyone who is capable (and willing) to do this. Some discussions may lead to both parties simply agreeing to disagreeing - that's absolutely fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion after all!
.
 
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Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Extra suggestion to make the most of this thread:

I do recommend having Maetrim's DDOBuilder open while looking at my threads, as this will enable you to:
- hover over the abilities listed and learn more about them
- experiment with changing things and seeing if they would work better for you, before doing it in the live game
- get a general overview of the key aspects of the build

I arrange my DDOBuilder screen as per the image below (this build is actually in the image as of Aug 2023), as it helps me view the key aspects of my builds far more easily than opening and closing a bunch of windows. Just thought I'd share, in case its useful:
Maetrim-s-DDOBuilder-sample.jpg


Maetrim's builder is really amazing, I highly recommend it!
 
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Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Hi Fisto Mk I. I had to move my builds to their own threads, as the image load was getting a bit too heavy being all together.

Thanks for your time responding to my message. I really enjoy discussing builds, so this is very welcome, and I hope you won't mind continuing it in this thread :) I added some thoughts below in gold:

To start, perhaps I should say that I agree that Shadowdancer is indeed a viable option for a Wizard insta-kill build. It was the main Destiny I used for this character when the EDs were revamped, and I enjoyed it for a while. Whether or not it is the most efficient (META), is not something I am particularly concerned with. I am, however happy to discuss ideas about what works well or not, based on our experiences :)

cooldown was a bit long (1 minute)
Same as Weil of the Banshee, second best AoE mass-IK. With both -10% to CD from Shadowdancer and Draconic only 48 sec, with bonus -10% from Dragonsoul set - 42. ;)
Kali: Hard to argue against this: it does seem a very efficient way to go if aiming for max CD reduction.
> I'd say Weird's long CD is just one of the negatives about Shadowdancer. It's also about how awful it is having to go through a tree that is not that great for a pure caster (particularly in the upper tiers), just to get only 2 meaningful abilities: Weird, and the other (+3 DCs) being like any other caster tree.
> With 9 insta-kill spells already to rotate (3 being PDK spells), it just wasn't worth when compared to what Magus offered.
> Though not an insta-kill spell per se, it could be argued that Time Stop is very much like an insta-kill spell, and it benefits everyone in the group: very long cooldown, sure, but I found Magus offers plenty more in the tree to fill up the space between the cooldowns :)


Shadowdancer tier 5 is just awful for spellcasters: Weird and the Spell DCs were the only things that were worth investing in
I use Shadow Mastery too and it's very cool! 50% Incorporeality, +15% to uncapped Dodge, no save IK for 20 sec, +3SA (and epic strike provide nice untyped damage per SA dice scaling with Force Spellpower). Just activate your Hood of Unrest, Shadow Mastery and rush into mobs... 8)
Kali: yep, I sort of felt 'forced' to take that too, not to feel too bad about only taking 2 things from a Tier 5 tree.
> Ref Shadow Mastery, apart from the Epic Strike damage + extra SA die (and I was 'force-specced' at that point), I found the rest was very rarely useful
> Being an Epic Moment, meant I ended up 'saving it' for the big boss fights, and mostly for extra dmg, rather than the defensive bonuses
> I rarely rush into mobs, unless they are held by some kind of CC, at which point I don't often need the defenses it offers
> Ref the defensive bonuses: in the difficulty I normally play (reaper 6-10), the effectiveness of concealment and incorporeality are greatly reduced. I don't have the numbers to hand, but I am sure there is still a thread somewhere discussing this
> I go all the way to tier 3 in Shadowdancer, so I still benefit from some of the defensive bonuses it offers
> Magus also offers defensiveness, and I personally found it to suit my playstyle better (the MRR cap is particularly handy, and I don't believe it gets reduced in high reaper). I prefer placing a circle under the feet of the melee in the frontline and granting them incorporeality, while slowing enemies + chance to freeze them no save, rather than having a bonus only for me, every 5 minutes (or in my case, more like every boss fight)


Time Stop is too good to pass
It's really good in Hunt or be Hunted final fight (better if 2 Wizard in raid have it)... not so good for others.
Kali: my experience differs significantly: I find it useful everywhere, and all party members love it when I cast it :). Bosses (inc Raid ones) being considered helpless for the purposes of damage is an extremely valuable ability: I would sincerely struggle to justify calling it "not so good"

Magus has a lot more synergy with negative spellcasting, which this build focuses on
Arguable. Indeed, synergy exist... but in game too many mobs have immunity/resists to negative damage, force/untyped from Shadowdancer, other hands, almost irresistible.
Kali: Negative energy immunity is not a concern for my build: Pale Master's can invest to strip that immunity (and my build does). There is little, if anything, that still won't take negative damage after that.
> In terms of spells that do negative damage: apart from Draconic (which possibly outperforms any other tree for nukers), Magus has proven to be a great tree for offensive negative energy casting.


Nuking is not a primary aim of this build
If you run primary raid only or have static groups - very possible. If not and play solo and pug also - you need have nuke option. Not all things can be IK, we both know this too well... bosses, for example... :)
Kali: Nuking might still be the current META, but I don't build for META, ever. I've been here long enough (since 2006) to know the META always changes, sometimes fading as quickly as it starts (when the next hotfix comes about), and I don't have deep enough pockets to fork out 23 hearts of wood to re-spec to the new build-of-the-moment every time that happens. Nothing against anyone who does that, but it's not my thing.
> The way I prefer to build my characters is by firstly setting some aims, and then analysing the class, EDs, etc to see what combo suits the aims best. But sometimes the best might not be fun to me, so I take the most fun option that still achieves my aims.
> I am hopeful that caster damage will continue to be balanced (i.e. reduced) in the near future, and at that point, if nuking doesn't do the job quickly enough, CC and insta-kills might become preferable again.
> I'm fully there with you when you say that not all things can be IK: that's the very reason I decided to go Magus vs Shadowdancer. My experience has shown me there is more damage potential in Magus, and focusing on negative energy also allows for excellent survival via aura healing.

Insta-kills make damage over time less desirable in general
Boss fight again... ;)
Kali: Boss fights: Time Stop, Moon's Shadow, Dark Light of the Moon, Gloomspear, Nullmagic, possibly mantle passive damage (depending on which boss). That's just the best bits from Magus. Then throw in the mix Render the Soul, necrotic Blast + bolt, possibly 3 neg auras + necro touch if proximity is possible (+ ED mantle as per above). I rarely struggle to contribute meaningfully to DPS when needed.

Dreadkeeper is too good to pass, or replace for 2 different sets of 2-pieces (Magewright + Desert)
For me, Leg Dragonhide too good to pass... And Magewright +Desert/Night +Elder's - really good combo. I get my 1st Elders/Night GoMF after only 3 rerolls... and my 2nd with only one... :D
Kali: indeed, dragon armor is great. I doubt I'll manage that for 23 alts in this lifetime, though, and even if I had this aim, by the time I am less than half-way there, the META is very likely to be a different armor anyway, definitely not worth it for me! I have one, and it works nicely on my druid wolf. I can make another one, but that will go to my Warlock ES aura caster.
You got very lucky with your rolls, not everyone does, and for them, it is a considerable investment of time and luck. Unfortunately for me, having to gear a large number of alts for endgame means I don't get to roll perfect gems for each. I happily make do with the 3 I managed to get so far, and that are shared with all the alts that can benefit from them:

mX7trbl.jpg


Ref Large shield: I suppose the 15% ASF could be offset with a sapphire -10%, but that would still leave me with 5% (having an extra 11 action points via racial past lives to grab EK core 3, again, is not a viable/achievable option for someone who plays 23 alts). Let's say I accept 5% failure, I can't really see what amazing benefit a shield would grant me. Care to elaborate? :)
1st, you can use +15% Sapphire, so here no problem at all. 2nd, you can (and must) use Crystal/Mithral material to get -10% to ASF. You get all benefit that Large Shield provide like bonus to AC and DR and have exactly same abilities as your Orb. ;)
Kali: I personally find AC to be negligible, unless you heavily invest in it. I have a tank, and even on him the focus is more on PRR, MRR and HPS, as AC, in my opinion, still needs a lot of tweaking to be effective.
> The blocking DR might be situationally (and rarely) useful: in reaper 6-10 I'd say its negligible. My best defense, to be frank, is my CC. For shields to help some I'd probably need the feats, but I dont have spare feat slots.
> I would actually get less of what really matters to my build for having a shield as compared to an orb, as many trees (including in my build) grant extra spellpower if you are wielding an orb/staff


Ref Borderland lvl 20 stick: No idea what you are on about here. I apologise, unless this is some kind of an exploit, I can't see how that would be better than a Dino stick. Salt alone makes that weapon highly desirable, not to mention the +2 exceptional INT.
Here no any exploit. Of course, borderland caster stick have much worse stats than Dino... while provide most valuable benefit - use 10-11 filigree slot at lvl20! 8)
Kali: I see your point now, and it does make a lot of sense for those who TR frquently. I'd rather invest in one endgame weapon for each alt, since that's where I keep the majority of my alts pretty much permanently. I detest TRs, and do them to the absolute minimum I can. I do sometimes TR, but it's because I want a new race, or want to make major changes to my build (though the latter is very possible with a +5 and +20 heart).
 
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salvo

Member
Hi there, I cannot seem to see the previous comment - but I had asked what do you replace the past lives feat with if you are on your 1st life?

Thank you!
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Are those DCs listed in reaper or standing on the boat?
Hi @Teh_Troll All numbers for all my builds are out of reaper mode, with very few past lives.
However, for this wizard specifically, I've used a +8 tome to INT and 12/14 filigree slots opened and slotted (only 2 Dragonsoul filigrees missing).
It's meant to be like the 'core' of the build, so there's definitely room to boost numbers with investment in past lives and reaper trees.
Hope this answers your query :)
 
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Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Hi there, I cannot seem to see the previous comment - but I had asked what do you replace the past lives feat with if you are on your 1st life?

Thank you!
Hi @salvo I moved things around a bit, my message might have gotten lost in the old thread.
I'd suggest you take Spell Penetration at level 3, and then Greater Spell Penetration at level 15. Having no past lives, the extra spell pen would come in handy. Hope this is helpful!
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Updated the Starting Stats to include how many points the build has (in brackets).
Hopefully this helps avoid confusion :)
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
Change + 1 Int Eye of Beholder on artifact to + 1 Int Zarigan, and +30 Spell point/4 USP Zarigan on weapon to +10 USP Eye of Beholder. +6 USP, and -30 Spell point irrelevant really. ;)
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Change + 1 Int Eye of Beholder on artifact to + 1 Int Zarigan, and +30 Spell point/4 USP Zarigan on weapon to +10 USP Eye of Beholder. +6 USP, and -30 Spell point irrelevant really. ;)
Nice suggestion (y)

This wizard is perhaps the caster that spends mana the quickest out of all my casters (and does run low on some occasions, despite the mana replenish items), so I don't know if I would personally make this change. If this was a nuker, I'd probably go with it, though.

It's not the 30 Spell points per se (though I can cast a bunch of SLA insta-kill/CC spells with it): its more of a design thing, where I am focusing the most on insta-kills and CC, so choices are made to favour these, but not abandon spell power completely.

Nice to have this option on this thread for others, though, so thanks for the input!
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Epic Destinies updated to include an extra point gained from unlocking Machrotecnic.

N.B. At this point in time, my builds will NOT include the +1 Universal Tree (Morgrave) bonus.
Unfortunately, for those of us who actively play several alts, the
Ultimate Bundle offering bank space that is useful to one character only is, frankly, not an offer that adequately supports and incentivises playing with alts. Storage is still a massive issue (particularly for multi-alt players like me), that I sadly feel is still not being addressed in a fair and efficient manner. Since the Ultimate Bundle does not support my playstyle, I sadly chose not to support the game in an ultimate manner on this occasion.

Down the line, this tome will be acquired with DDO points (when I can combine double point sales + tome sale), and the builds that depend on universal trees will be the ones to receive suggestions on where to spend it first.
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Kali, I have no ap tomes, so I have to cut 3 ap from the build. What would you cut?

Thanks!
Hey @Scrag Happy to make some suggestions:

1 APs from the Universal Tree tome:
I'd cut the Core 1 from Feydark Illusionist (-1AP), without significant impact.

2 APs from the racial tomes:
I'd cut the +1 INT from Archmage [T4] (-2APs). Low-moderate impact on the overall DCs, depending on your total INT score (even or odd), but potentially the best place to cut something out

Some comments on my thinking process, if anyone finds helpful:
Major impact cutting anything from Pale Master, as you need 41 APs for capstone
Major impact cutting anything from Deep Gnome (losing one insta-kill spell)

Hope this was helpful! :)

If you get a chance, let me know how you get on with the build, and if you made any changes + how well they worked.
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Main thread updated with Balance adjustments made in U61:
Archmage Changes:
- Several abilities are cheaper now, so there was room to pick up a couple of new things
- added Improved Quickening [T2]​
- added spell critical chance [T3]​
 

Aysander

New member
Hey,

Returning player who never really got super far to begin with here -- I just have one tiny question on this.

I notice there's no investment in the Dex stat. I thought it was sort of necessary for survival? Granted I suppose if you catch everything in the CC maybe it won't matter much lol.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
If its a wizard or alch build usually take the intel to reflex saves feat so you only need to max con and intel
 

Aysander

New member
If its a wizard or alch build usually take the intel to reflex saves feat so you only need to max con and intel
Ah makes sense then, thanks. Was more thinking in relation to AC but I guess Clothes/Robes don't exactly get a high dex bonus anyways and you can just use Mage Armor/etc.
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
Hey,

Returning player who never really got super far to begin with here -- I just have one tiny question on this.

I notice there's no investment in the Dex stat. I thought it was sort of necessary for survival? Granted I suppose if you catch everything in the CC maybe it won't matter much lol.
Hi @Aysander Welcome back to DDO! Thanks for visiting my thread, hope you find the build helpful. Wizards are great fun!

You are right in your thinking ref Dexterity improving survival. It does so in a couple of ways:
1. by increasing Armor Class (AC)
2. by improving your reflex saves, and therefore, your chances of reducing the damage you take from some spells and traps

Ref 1: on a pure caster build such as mine, you are very unlikely to reach a very high armor class, so for this reason, investment in Dexterity is not recommended. Armor class is more important for tanks, and requires very heavy investment to be meaningful at endgame.
Ref 2: reflex is very useful for all characters really, but especially for those who have the Evasion feat. This build gets evasion from the Epic Destiny 'Shadowdancer' (core 3), and takes a feat @ lvl 18 that lets it use your Intelligence modifier for reflex saves (rather than the standard Dexterity).

Therefore, Dexterity is not particularly useful at all, and you can safely keep it at it's base value of 8 without significantly compromising your survival down the line.

Some of the key defenses you should seek for your wizard are:
- PRR and MRR
- concealment (via the displacement spell)
- incorporeality (via effects such as Ghostly/ enhanced ghostly)
- dodge bonuses
- good CC (as you pointed out)
- safe positioning (i.e. stay behind your companions, and cast from a good distance using the feat Enlarge Spell)

I have a thread with some suggestions for defensiveness. Though it's aimed at melee characters, there are several strategies that would be beneficial for wizards too. Hope you find it useful.

Hope this was helpful!

N.B. The Mage Armor spell unfortunately does not scale well into endgame, and is only useful in the first few levels really. The armor bonus it grants does not stack with the armor bonus your robes will have. The spell is more useful for secondary effects (e.g. Eldritch Knight tier 1 'Improved Mage Armor').
 
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Aysander

New member
Thanks for the response! Does make sense that there'd be less of an emphasis on dex in this case then yeah.
 
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