Ki Bolt, Magic Missiles, and Ruin Make Muggle Monks Moan

[Tilomere]

I'm pretty sure it does, but Primal Mantle is impractical for ki-bolt:

• Triggers on melee+ranged+spell; ie. must mantle-dance to ensure a bolt proc
• Requires matching spell type; ki-bolt is fire? so only fire mantle will proc
• Only fires once per spell; so, 1/4 the dps of Draconic

IIRC, EA mantle will also proc with similar scale-stacking on ki-bolt, which in it's AE pulse form could be amazing for a monk tank. It won't trigger on melee, BUT it will trigger on light or positive spells, too (eg. renewal and cocoon), which complicates triggering it ONLY on bolt.

Primal has independent melee and caster procs as far as I know, in that you can proc both physical and magical independently. It's good for elite favor leveling to cap.
Hand of Harm procs on strikethrough, making me sortof want to take it and kata of ice and spam CC on everything since I was already using renewal for healing.
Kindof want to retest EA, I thought it didn't work that way.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

There's a note on the wiki SF tree that T4 SF grants 3xMP scaling like monk. It gives base SF ki-bolt scaling as 2xMP. You might need to pump a lot of AP into SF to make it pay.

I think we might have tested that but I don't remember for certain, sorry. Or maybe just the imbue? Still, 32 RS + 24ish SF leaves 24ish for SaD, so Aasimar for Sacred HP? Or ditch the RS idea lol. 41+ SaD 25ish SF seems fine.

My understanding of current threat problems is that modifiers don't apply to mantle procs, which is why ki-bolt dps pulls so much agro. This would be an issue for tanks that want to use it to hold agro as well (can't apply +threat to it either); ie. making it threat-worthy may mean giving up necessary tankiness and essentially turning the build into a dps.

I don't think that can be correct, we had 3-5 people run various ki bolt builds across a few months (some push raids, many normal raids) and AFAIK none were pulling (with -95% or higher spell threat reduction on all of those variants AFAIK). I even brought my Intim swaps so I could grab aggro in chill raids (LH/R1 LVoD grabbing Orthons mainly) because I couldn't hold consistently otherwise. -Threat was definitely something we were building for, and I'd expect to have noticed if it wasn't helping?

My current suspect is procs like DWM, but if mantle procs weren't reduced you'd pull every 2s against an Intim tank (130 Intim = 26k hate, that's a low bar for a Ki Bolt build to hit for more than that every proc especially with raid debuffs going). Our guild has 2ish hate tanks, but we have like 4+ Intim tanks depending on the month so I'm sure it'd have been a frequent issue.

 

[Bjond]

My current suspect is procs like DWM, but if mantle procs weren't reduced you'd pull every 2s against an Intim tank (130 Intim = 26k hate, that's a low bar for a Ki Bolt build

Heh, 26k is a low bar for anything -- my twf dl/sin does about 10k/line base and 25~30k crit, but iirc it has about threat-80.

There is something out there messing with hate. About the only commonality I've seen is the ones that pull regularly are usually non-standard damage builds (not including newbies in defender stance in that list -- we know why on those ).

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Heh, 26k is a low bar for anything -- my twf dl/sin does about 10k/line base and 25~30k crit, but iirc it has about threat-80.

There is something out there messing with hate. About the only commonality I've seen is the ones that pull regularly are usually non-standard damage builds (not including newbies in defender stance in that list -- we know why on those ).

Yeah, 26k every 6s = 4.3k Intim eDPS; with -80% threat you're good up til ~21k DPS (presuming no long CC on the tank). Intim just doesn't scale super well by itself. Even 200 Intim = 6.7k eDPS, it's just not worth the investment IMO...

Just saying if mantle procs weren't taking -spell threat one 30k proc would immediately pull after an Intim, let alone 3 of them landing between Intim CD's. Shield throw covers a portion, but not enough.

I could see having >4.5k DPS of like DWM/Acid etc procs with enough doubleshot/debuffs? Biggest commonality I've seen is DXB builds, one of my guildies was pulling yesterday with -150% threat XD but they have lots of procs so I wonder.

Personally I aim for -100% relevant threat and it works pretty well, although I'll settle for -95% XD also means you can go ham immediately and also if the tank gets chain CC'ed you don't have to stop (like THTH or LLoB).

 

[Shambhala]

I'm here just to say i'm Tilo fan.
Great job exploring builds and thiking outside the box

 

[mpareto]

Hey tilo! I ve looking at your build and was about to ask If a pure dragon disciple could use similar build, but using breath weapon spells + orchid blossom and ruins on a spell rotation, making it a Full caster with some melee backup using collision as weapon

 

[saekee]

Hey tilo! I ve looking at your build and was about to ask If a pure dragon disciple could use similar build, but using breath weapon spells + orchid blossom and ruins on a spell rotation, making it a Full caster with some melee backup using collision as weapon

Well DD does not get ki bolt as you know; the synergy would have been great. I am not sure the scaling is as strong but essentially that is the dev intent that you describe with DD.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Hey tilo! I ve looking at your build and was about to ask If a pure dragon disciple could use similar build, but using breath weapon spells + orchid blossom and ruins on a spell rotation, making it a Full caster with some melee backup using collision as weapon

You can absolutely play Dragon Disciple as a caster build and I've even heard it's good/great leveling, but Ki Bolt + Draconic Mantle is the interaction that makes these builds strong for endgame and AFAIK DD doesn't get Ki Bolt. (and SF one doesn't scale well even with a /SF/WM split) Also if playing as a Full caster your melee stats will be a lot behind.

You could definitely load Ruin/GRuin on a DD played as a caster, but you'd be missing 2/3 of the pillars holding this build up (Adrenaline + BM & Ki Bolt). I'd recommend Quick Cutter if you want off-melee DPS, and it's good - but at that point your build is a sorta generic AoE DPS thing, using DD spells + Quick Cutter and with GRuin for Reaper/Boss/Champ DPS?

 

[Bjond]

SF one doesn't scale well even with a /SF/WM split

Haven't tested it, but T4 SF "Light of Glory" looks like it fixes SF's issue with Ki Bolt scaling; that's a LOT of AP to drop in a tree for one node, though.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Haven't tested it, but T4 SF "Light of Glory" looks like it fixes SF's issue with Ki Bolt scaling; that's a LOT of AP to drop in a tree for one node, though.

I also haven't tested, the SF I knew who did testing tried and TR'ed before letting me know so I couldn't push a bunch of tests

But if SF works, there's a ton of options that suddenly become available; like T5 RS, T4 SF, T4 SaD seems pretty easy as an everything bagel sort of build.

 

[Terranigma]

Sacred Fist's Ki bolt doesn't change its Melee Power scaling to match or exceed the Henshin Mystic Ki bolt Melee Power scaling, even with the Light of Glory enhancement taken. Thankfully, I have a character who makes this easy to test (15 Sacred Fist/3 Monk/2 Warlock). I was using Alchemical Earth Attunement being it is a 100% proc that doesn't use Caster Level, but can ride on Ki Bolt's scaling.

Alchemical Earth Attunement from Bound Elemental Ring of Acid
Average Damage at 5 stacks should be 265 acid damage
Done with 250 Melee Power (and 453 Acid Spellpower for the curious)

Average damage when using Otto's Resistible Dance (for a baseline) - 270
Average damage when using Sacred Fist Ki Bolt with Light of Glory - 950
Average damage when using Henshin Mystic's Ki Bolt - 2300

The Otto's Resistible Dance had no scaling, as expected.
The Sacred Fist Ki Bolt looked to attach Melee Power at an x1 scalar; 265 * (2.5 * 1 + 1) = 927.5 which is close to my 950
The Henshin Mystic Ki Bolt looked to attach Melee Power at an x3 scalar; 265 * (2.5 * 3 + 1) = 2252.5 which is close to my 2300

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Done with 250 Melee Power

What your corresponded Acidic SP?
I've done a similar test before for DwM and i get the full impression that the damage is to the SP, not the MP.

 

[Terranigma]

I edited the post to note my ~450 Acid Spellpower. I think it still is Melee Power because I can get the numbers to vary pretty easily when I fluctuate my Melee Power and keep my Spellpower stable.

At 1 stack of Alchemical Earth Attunement, expecting 55 average damage
418 Acid Spellpower

Sacred Fist Ki Bolt (x1 Melee Power)
At 215 Melee Power, average 1-stack acid damage was around 175 (Expected would be about 173 with x3.15 scaling)
At 267 Melee Power, average 1-stack acid damage was around 205 (Expected would be about 202 with x3.67 scaling)

Henshin Mystic Ki Bolt (x3 Melee Power)
At 215 Melee Power, average 1-stack acid damage was around 405 (Expected would be about 410 with x7.45 scaling)
At 267 Melee Power, average 1-stack acid damage was around 480 (Expected would be about 495 with x9.01 scaling)

 

[Qrvar]

So I've been trying this build out and can confirm that it also works surprisingly well for undergeared lower-level play. Also gotta love the "why would you build that" reactions from random PUGs

It's an alt on the 3rd life so no build-specific or crafted gear, but I did throw a Leg. Burnscar Sash on for the spell lore and took the respective Scion (of Fire, because flavor) feat. Full 20 monk, STR based, Henshin + HOrc + some Shintao. EDs T5 Draconic, 27pts Fury, splash US for Renew. Basically, two "cornerstones" because I don't have any Ash items or Wiz PL. I did take G.Ruin+Intensified, but it doesn't seem to give much bang for the amount of SP it takes, I'd rather melee / debuff while the "cornerstones" are on cooldown.

At level 33, I'm getting 6~9k per Draconic tick, 15~25k on crits, which is very far from Tilo's optimized numbers but enough for the playstyle to work up to ~r4 (enough to one-shot reapers from across the room on r1). Could definitely use better gear (incl. sentient stuff), but it will come in time.

Curious to try a 14~5 monk / 5~6 DL split (once I decide to buy DL) to take care of elemental immunities.

Also nice discussion in the thread on SF, also curious to try that, maybe next TR, but can't decide on the split - I want to stick to QStaves so at least 1 level of Monk is mandatory, but then if you guys say the SF Ki Bolt doesn't scale well, the question is do I want to also grab the Henshin Ki bolt, will it scale only with Monk or also with SF etc. Or should I just do something like 15 SF / 4 FvS / 1 Mnk for the favored weapons and a few extra % of light spell crit. So many potential ways to fail the build, lol.

Anyway, if y'all want me to test anything before I TR soon (r), let me know, but keep in mind that I don't have much useful gear beyond the basics.

 

[saekee]

So I've been trying this build out and can confirm that it also works surprisingly well for undergeared lower-level play. Also gotta love the "why would you build that" reactions from random PUGs

It's an alt on the 3rd life so no build-specific or crafted gear, but I did throw a Leg. Burnscar Sash on for the spell lore and took the respective Scion (of Fire, because flavor) feat. Full 20 monk, STR based, Henshin + HOrc + some Shintao. EDs T5 Draconic, 27pts Fury, splash US for Renew. Basically, two "cornerstones" because I don't have any Ash items or Wiz PL. I did take G.Ruin+Intensified, but it doesn't seem to give much bang for the amount of SP it takes, I'd rather melee / debuff while the "cornerstones" are on cooldown.

At level 33, I'm getting 6~9k per Draconic tick, 15~25k on crits, which is very far from Tilo's optimized numbers but enough for the playstyle to work up to ~r4 (enough to one-shot reapers from across the room on r1). Could definitely use better gear (incl. sentient stuff), but it will come in time.

Curious to try a 14~5 monk / 5~6 DL split (once I decide to buy DL) to take care of elemental immunities.

Also nice discussion in the thread on SF, also curious to try that, maybe next TR, but can't decide on the split - I want to stick to QStaves so at least 1 level of Monk is mandatory, but then if you guys say the SF Ki Bolt doesn't scale well, the question is do I want to also grab the Henshin Ki bolt, will it scale only with Monk or also with SF etc. Or should I just do something like 15 SF / 4 FvS / 1 Mnk for the favored weapons and a few extra % of light spell crit. So many potential ways to fail the build, lol.

Anyway, if y'all want me to test anything before I TR soon (r), let me know, but keep in mind that I don't have much useful gear beyond the basics.

you need the monk levels to keep the ki bolt strong—less monk levels equal less damage. I have a 12/8 split for example on a new toon and it does way less damage.

Yeah build is great for low life alts! Acid is the way to go as Scion of earth also gives PRR and it is less resisted. You also want the 3 EPLs for energy criticals. Think like a melee into spell casting—spell crit chance is like crit range on weapons and spell crit damage is like seeker. So you want high spell lore and high spell crit damage. Debuffs on the mob help immensely, ooze/ash (MRR reducers) and anything like vulnerabiltiy boosters, or similar stuff like constricting nightmares.

Aim for close to 50 spell lore in your element and around 85-90 in damage; dino gear has the three types of spell crit damage in the accessories (you can put all three in an artifact).

Easy gear to do for buffing—ToEE acid set, dino artifact, Deacon set, then look into boosting spell power with some quality source (Deacon robe has insightful, not perfect bit something). Then TWF with debuffers; Salt on trash (don’t bother with Dino salt, it is no good) and swap to ash/ooze on red named. If you want to go nuts you can add sun/moon augments, trinket with Doublestrike, goggles with spell crit, drop of tea out of hunt waterfall chest etc.

Fast ki bolt monks have ruined my preferred assassin playstyle fun.

 

[Qrvar]

Thanks - I've been out of the game since around Feywild dropped, so all that new gear will be interesting to farm. Also the Energy Criticals ELP - I've missed that, and it looks huge! +9% to crit chance (I misread it as damage) is nothing to sneeze at!

Fast ki bolt monks have ruined my preferred assassin playstyle fun.

No kidding, it's making me feel almost, dare I say... competent?

 

[Wujeck]

Anyone tested if the new Arcane Trickster splash can boost Ki bolt damage to insane numbers yet? I am thinking might be possible to get to 200k per bolt?

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Anyone tested if the new Arcane Trickster splash can boost Ki bolt damage to insane numbers yet? I am thinking might be possible to get to 200k per bolt?

I don't think any new level split is going to make a massive difference; you need to significantly increase spell crit chance, spell crit damage, spellpower, melee power, or force caster level to have a significant change.

So far from what I've seen AT mostly opens up different splits for what you're doing outside of ki bolting. You get an extra level and 10 AP to spend, basically. I've mentioned a few (12/5/3 for Monk 12 + your favorite T5, be it DL or BoH etc etc; 14/3/3 for HSword for melee), and Terranigma mentioned 13/4/3 Druid (to be clear this was already possible with WM, but the 10 AP helps a lot). But you can look to heal, melee DPS, spell DPS, tank, etc - and AT might enable more of those options (if nothing else all AT splits can trap if they want).

Anyway 200k per bolt is a fairly low bar to cross if you're focusing on Ki Bolt for DPS. CL 27 with 800 Acid etc, 220 MP, 50% crits chance w/+55% crit damage, and 1.61x debuffs averages 204k per ki bolt/mantle. Focused build with buffs/debuffs can hit 200k/tic lol. Post #147 has some big hits from mid-2024, newer gear and higher level cap can easily push that a bit more (and even just more AP always helps). Best focused ki bolt damage I've found is EK, which scales both melee and spell stuff well.

Depends a lot on if you are just building a raid-only glass cannon (like that) or making a build useful for other stuff (like Tilo soloing raids, or healer splits, or tank splits).

 

[handofgood]

There's a ton of cool Ki Bolt variants (like 13/4/3 FvS/WM/Monk has pretty much full healing w/wall and decent boss DPS via Ki Bolt, or the Monk/SF tank splits), but the best DPS I've come up with is 12/4/4 Wiz/Monk/WM as a WF - 38ish EK, 22 WM, 12 Harper, 6 HM, 11 WF.

EK gets both a bunch of melee power, a bunch of spellpower, boosts to both, and stacking buffs to both (a la Arcane Warrior, another great feat for these builds).

Chaosmancer gets immunity stripping, but Warforged has self-heals and 15 MP (and 25 USP with more racial AP) which is better if you bring a buddy.

This build scales with Crit Chance, Crit Multi, MP (not at 100%), and spellpower - and the best way to max those that I could find is EK, which coincidentally leaves you with passable melee DPS. I did wraps melee to test how it worked with imbue (pretty well), but obvs a style with +MP is better for Ki Bolt directly (and like Savant tree, but Harper is more DPS even if less Ki Bolt).

We were running Ice b/c better raid debuffs and pushing Fire raids, back with level 32 cap - I'm posting now because I don't think anyone is running Ki Bolt builds anymore. The big numbers are fun, but they're just highlight reel - and there's more to building than just single-target DPS, and these splits are pretty one-dimensional. Also Inquis has surpassed the DPS of this build (my best Cloud Giant bench was 76s, and even Alchy Inquis is down to 48s while also being ranged, way more survivable, and having better utility).
I also really like how accessible Ki Bolt is (not the numbers below, but the general theme - I was capping at like 60k on my healer split) to get newer players into better DPS as well; the endgame vets can already do better than this, but for a new player hitting 60k is a whole new world lol.

FS strike is also pretty decent, and Turn the Tide is decent for party (caster-heavy splits running T5 Magus w/Timestop)

If you're going to post screenies, get the real busted ones with a party's worth of buffs/debuffs too XD

Skeletons (Time Stop):

Biggest standard hit in FoM (w/TS):

Biggest non-TS hit (ice vuln boss):

Possibly biggest hit in DDO? (Rudus has like 10x negative vuln and we spent a few hours trying to coordinate buffs/debuffs for any devs watching this post, also building for negative DoT is a terrible choice in DDO):

I have video but don't really know how to blur names and voices etc out lol
13.6m from that ki bolt if you include the procs while dead (3.5m, 3.6m, and 1.7m for the other tics) - I mean it was super fun to oneshot Rudus and looks great, but also I was getting oneshot during setup, it's one boss in DDO, and there was a lot of setup.

My best hit outside Ki Bolt is 300k without Time Stop, but that toon was significantly more useful in almost every way than this one. Actually survivable, AoE, CC, utility, etc. Single-target DPS not even much worse, and it was THF Barb.

Anyway Happy New Year's, hope this helps your quest!

So that means that mp+sp scaling (using EK variant) is stronger on draconic DoTs than the CL + sp scaling (of the 17/3 wildmage variant)?
Are you taking the +2CL from WM with the EK split? can you recall what were your stats (mp, sp boosted) ?

 

[Zyth]

So that means that mp+sp scaling (using EK variant) is stronger on draconic DoTs than the CL + sp scaling (of the 17/3 wildmage variant)?
Are you taking the +2CL from WM with the EK split? can you recall what were your stats (mp, sp boosted) ?

No, it means that the split with EK is now possible thanks to Arcane Trickster. And in theory, this would bring a lot to the table.