Aye, we parse on that one too - but on R4 with a tank.
My INQ was down to 1m 51. How someone can get down to 42s on R1 is interesting.
Ki Bolt, Magic Missiles, and Ruin Make Muggle Monks Moan
- Thread starter Tilomere
- Start date
My INQ was down to 1m 51. How someone can get down to 42s on R1 is interesting.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Yeah, they brought a healing hire which saved them a few seconds over me self-healing on Ki Bolt build, but not enough to make or break anything (heal while the good stuff's on CD). R4 requires a tank for many DPS builds, whereas R1 doesn't.
Would be better representation of slightly more sustained DPS though.
We were using Stonejaw for a while, back when IoD was newer, but that gets ridiculous with good builds. And then R4 Promise of Fire to -2m, but that's helpless which makes the numbers complicated esp for partial helpless builds.
It's part of why I'm so open about Ki Bolt builds now. For a while they were top-class single-target DPS (at the expense of largely everything else) but now that they're not top-tier and there's builds that have higher single-target while also having a lot of other features, it's not really out-of-line. I'd rather have an Inquis than a glass cannon Ki Bolt build for 95% of raids and 100% of quests (for some raids like FoTP having DoT's is quite helpful). And if you're looking at the tanky Ki Bolt builds (which I haven't run with, but Tilo and others have had success in this thread) the damage is pretty unimpressive (and still single-target only).
Bjond
Well-known member
Some ideas based on tool-tip data (ie. I've not tested these):
- DL has immunity strip on successful Sunder in T4
- Assassin has immunity strip via Poison Strikes (no save?)
- New Ninja Spy? IIRC, it had strip then didn't. Sting may or may not keep it's debuff. Flip some coins for live.
As spells, Ki-bolt & wave "should" trigger MH+OH LGS effects. Salted OH (true LGS) would halt a non-boss for leisurely DOT murder.
If you can live with an uncentered build, IAF with VKF's MP=RP would provide a hefty power base increase; 3 Monk 4 WM Alchemist thrower (of all the strippers, only Alchemist does it from ranged). ED's could then use Shiradi for a big Epic Moment and decent classic DPS on top of fat bolts.
* I would suggest 18monk/2alchemist and poison. It has the highest potential DPS vs bosses. I don't think 4 levels and 22 AP for CM is worth it for +2/4 caster levels.
* I would be Leary of using wave. It scales at 2x power and resets your arcane warrior count. In addition every LGS and on-spell effect proc will only trigger once per cast of a spell (not once per target).
* From running the druid split i found it quite easy to maintain enough ki to empower bolt via just using GMoF inner focus. The only issue with using that is it locks you into GMoF destiny.
* I think it would be interesting to make a Ki-bolt + Cauldron that uses 2 bound elemental rings, dripping with magma armor, and 2 new dripping with XYZ. Might be kinda fun. Again, can go 2alchemist for poison strip.
I am watching this with interest.
I've used immunity stripping with alchemist in combination with ninja poison a few years back.
the immunity stripping from viel chemist is quite smooth.
the only disapointment you guys might face is that when you remove the immunity to poison you can not stack up vulnerability.
so no purple numbers on a immunity stripped mob.
I am not entirely sure this is how it works for other types of immunity stripping not from alchemist, but I belive it does.
I would like to know if this has changed or if rogue or dragonlord works differently.
Sunder is a very uncomfortable way to do it though. it is so slow.
My interest is finding some reason to use ninja poison over any other imbue atm. I like the idea of it but it doesnt seem to fail to disapoint.
my thoughts was some kind of ruin build like this and/or some kind of primal avatar summoner build for poison procs.
getting full stacks of poison vulnerability up would be quite rare outside raids I think.
with atleast 2 alchemist you atleast get a cleave for immunity removal.
the cone spell attack with 3 levels is the smoothest way for immunity stripping with quicken and quickdraw but a realy bad idea if you want the Dm proc on ki bolt.
out of personal interest. does anyone know if the proc from paranoia work the same way with ki-bolt?
if it did then 30+ sneak attack dice could be a bit interesting maybe
I've used immunity stripping with alchemist in combination with ninja poison a few years back.
the immunity stripping from viel chemist is quite smooth.
the only disapointment you guys might face is that when you remove the immunity to poison you can not stack up vulnerability.
so no purple numbers on a immunity stripped mob.
I am not entirely sure this is how it works for other types of immunity stripping not from alchemist, but I belive it does.
I would like to know if this has changed or if rogue or dragonlord works differently.
Sunder is a very uncomfortable way to do it though. it is so slow.
My interest is finding some reason to use ninja poison over any other imbue atm. I like the idea of it but it doesnt seem to fail to disapoint.
my thoughts was some kind of ruin build like this and/or some kind of primal avatar summoner build for poison procs.
getting full stacks of poison vulnerability up would be quite rare outside raids I think.
with atleast 2 alchemist you atleast get a cleave for immunity removal.
the cone spell attack with 3 levels is the smoothest way for immunity stripping with quicken and quickdraw but a realy bad idea if you want the Dm proc on ki bolt.
out of personal interest. does anyone know if the proc from paranoia work the same way with ki-bolt?
if it did then 30+ sneak attack dice could be a bit interesting maybe
Bjond
Well-known member
Unsure about stacking vuln after those strip, but the notes about my druid's cold strip say no vuln on top of that. So, I think you're right about it.
DL Sunder stripping is very fast and nice for a melee -- my TWF DL does it all the time. It would be hellish for a ranged character, though. Not tested rogue myself. Asked about it in another thread and iirc, it requires a successful INT-based DC.
Yes. I only care about raids, though. So, at least that part works for me.
If it does, I would imagine it only happens on that first strike -- it would likely take extra coding effort to snapshot and use initial powers instead of current on hit values. Paranoia seems to add an imbue'ish proc to hits, not a dot.
Draconic Mantle ticks away even if you do nothing at all, which means they'd have to code it by reference instead of value to avoid snapshotting.
ty bjond.
i've thought about using paranoia manytimes with some kind of spell casting and first blood. I never got to it.
I dont know if the primal avatar proc works in a similar way as the draconic one in combination with ki-bolt but I think it might be something I might try somewhere down the line.
I've used primal avatar with shurikens and crossbows a lot for epic leveling and it usualy holds up quite decently at cap aswell even though i'm usualy a bit sloppy with getting together the gear.
primal avatar in combination with high multishot, spellpower and spell lore can give interesting numbers.
getting arcane supremacy proc with a full stack of ninja poison could be funny for either of these ideas. very situational but might give pretty numbers. kukri and vistani might be the way to go then in order to stack poison. points would be scarce and melee power troublesome.
ninja poison is realy mostly powerfull for someone elses build. haha
i dont think paranoia can crit on melee or ranged hits, so I think you are right.
i've thought about using paranoia manytimes with some kind of spell casting and first blood. I never got to it.
I dont know if the primal avatar proc works in a similar way as the draconic one in combination with ki-bolt but I think it might be something I might try somewhere down the line.
I've used primal avatar with shurikens and crossbows a lot for epic leveling and it usualy holds up quite decently at cap aswell even though i'm usualy a bit sloppy with getting together the gear.
primal avatar in combination with high multishot, spellpower and spell lore can give interesting numbers.
getting arcane supremacy proc with a full stack of ninja poison could be funny for either of these ideas. very situational but might give pretty numbers. kukri and vistani might be the way to go then in order to stack poison. points would be scarce and melee power troublesome.
ninja poison is realy mostly powerfull for someone elses build. haha
Bjond
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure it does, but Primal Mantle is impractical for ki-bolt:
- Triggers on melee+ranged+spell; ie. must mantle-dance to ensure a bolt proc
- Requires matching spell type; ki-bolt is fire? so only fire mantle will proc
- Only fires once per spell; so, 1/4 the dps of Draconic
Ty for the information.
I understand the reasoning for isolating the proc to ki bolt. I just wanted to understand the interraction better.
primal avatar has been my jam for a lot of things. the EA is also interesting to me since I tend to play tanks when I am done with past lives. heal tanks mainly so it would be nice to have something to clear with, if only with a gearswap for soloing to get gear I want.
a centered conbased, tanky alchemist with ninjapoison is probably possible. 15 for heal, lots of imbues, quite high prr thanks to and dodge cap.
I have played 15 alchemist builds plenty of times but not as a tank before.
i've looked on the possibility of gnome/deep gnome with 3 kensai/15 alchemist/2 monk before to get the dodge cap realy high for fun.
to change that to 2 fighter or something else for +1 monk to get ki-bolt could be interesting too.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Ki Bolt scales with Force CL, so I'm pretty sure it's coded as a Force spell (Fire Savant doesn't boost it).
Triggering mantle procs when you want them is a huge focus of these builds, but you get used to it after a bit of gameplay (like with Ki Bolt having 3s CD and Draconic Mantle having 5s CD you have to wait vs spamming, but the output is very visible so you get rewarded for doing things right.
FS mantle also seems pretty reasonable, being AoE Sonic damage? Although no Bard Ki Bolt stuff lol. 6s CD means you can just spam Ki Bolt and proc it every other one if you feel lazy as well XD
Bjond
Well-known member
Dodgy tanking works; I've been playing one for years now. IMHO, you'll want enough PRR/HP to take at least 3x hits in a row anyway. I far prefer DRoll builds for stochastic tanking.
IMHO, Ki-bolt isn't worth it without a LOT of monk levels (and 3 monk is minimum for bolt). I used a monk splash (6? iirc) for mantle-trigger checks. The damage is pathetic without monk levels.
BTW, bolt may be force as well, but I recall it triggering via fire & spell on mantles. Worse, I can't find my notes, which means retesting. I probably jotted them in some really clever spot, like a builder note on a build I later deleted. ><
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oh I thought it might just be worth for just the scaling on the EA aura proc or Draconic Dot depending on the build. I might be wrong.
i've not done dodge tanking since I did my deep gnome lives and I think it was in ravenloft. it was awsome untill fort save spells got to me. I wasnt aiming to be a tank either. it was just dex based kensai monk wizard realy and a lot of things have changed since then. r1-2 strahd was concidered hard.
Now there are some ways to get absorbtion high from the epic destiny and things wich is nice.
Bjond
Well-known member
There's no level scaling on those. It's just as stated; eg. paranoia/dark-imbuement is Sneak d6 x1 your pick of force spellpower or melee (from a melee hit) or ranged (from ranged) power. The proc triggers on weapon or spell hit.
The part of paranoia I don't know is what happens to paranoia procs triggered outside the epic strike when triggered by a spell, particularly a non-force spell. Does it multiply the force proc by the spellpower of the new spell? Does it even work at all? This is one to test. It might lead to a new ki-bolt style scaling option. I suspect it doesn't do that, though.
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
Seems no. At least, i don't see difference. I "tested" (don't do real tests, just behold how it works when proc while questing) force, illusion, sonic and necro spellz - seems it's same flat damage from SA dices.
Yes.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Yeah, that's been my experience. I wouldn't run it with less than 15 CL or so, but do what ya want lol. Epic CL bonuses help, but at some point you're building around a meh ability.
Yep, 100%. Monk has the least opportunity cost, but the WM splits have more flexibility and often more spellcasting bonuses.
SF Ki Bolt doesn't scale the same for whatever reason, FYI.
ty for that. It saved me a lot of disapointment. it would have been an alternative otherwise. SF incinerating wave got 4 sec cd and can be stacked upon each others easier and got no reflex save on it, wich is why I was thinking of going SF again. so fun to level with but was horrible once I got past r6 at cap even with 400+ meleepower.
If there was a way for the other spells to matter more endgame with ki-bolt, i think I would go for it. it's fun but the reaper penalties realy breaks it.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Yeah, until I found that out SF tank (esp w/RS T5) seemed like a swiss army build for raiding - pretty tanky, boss DPS (with +threat on ki bolt you could hold against anyone), AoE heals, etc.
Can still do like SF/WM/Monk but ehhh
Bjond
Well-known member
There's a note on the wiki SF tree that T4 SF grants 3xMP scaling like monk. It gives base SF ki-bolt scaling as 2xMP. You might need to pump a lot of AP into SF to make it pay.
My understanding of current threat problems is that modifiers don't apply to mantle procs, which is why ki-bolt dps pulls so much agro. This would be an issue for tanks that want to use it to hold agro as well (can't apply +threat to it either); ie. making it threat-worthy may mean giving up necessary tankiness and essentially turning the build into a dps.