Broken Old Monk
Keep All Void and Elemental Finishers Please?
That's because of all the damn zergers with all the tweaks to movement speed so they can complete Misery Peak in under 3 minutes type behavior of certain players.......
Lamannia Preview 2: Pathing Perf Change for Blind Behavior
- Thread starter Torc
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Mornyngstar
Ymerawdwr
And that behavior bleeding to other peoples' instances causing lag.
Frieling Slyhand
Well-known member
This is exactly right. I noticed the issue with mobs stuck after MD and I am convinced it has to do with the dead magic zones. It isn’t like people suddenly started stealthing/invising more to escape mobs.
glass_jaws
Well-known member
Are some monsters blind by default? Take the ghouls behind the walls in White Plume Mountain for instance? On Live, when they come out they just start jumping around in random directions, and don't seem to be able to find the player. If they are blind by default for some reason, might be a good place to test this.
Positive thinking
Well-known member
If they just teleported all mobs to a zerger that purple alerts we would fix that problem real fast. Add an instant mob teleport to any hirelings the zerger also calls to them when they die. This is the only way to nip running past mobs to get quick quest completions. Now if someone is truly sneaking by that is different, but lets keep sneaking speeds down so that it is not an appealing option for zergers. When you are invisible and you are running, move silently should be a non active skill, this should lead to detection and zergers should be busted and nailed to the wall.
Zerging creates lag for all of us.
Frieling Slyhand
Well-known member
The game is designed around doing 200+ past lives. The time sink is beyond impossible for most people who don't play 10 hours/day. So the natural response is to do quests as fast as possible.
Why design a game that demands speed and then punish players for doing the extremely rational thing?
If you like to go to slow, great! But why do devs and some players want to dictate how other players want to play? Don't play with zergers if you don't want. Why destroy what gives them pleasure, especially given that their style of play is quite logical given the game design?
J1NG
I can do things others can't...
So, near as I could tell from testing, the most major issue, is that on initial combat/aggro initiation on enemies and then applying stealth/invis/blindess:
1. The enemies will never stop even after swinging at your last location and repeat this until you can lose aggro entirely by being non-detected (stealth/invis) and then immediately at a distance that is much greater than what enemies can use to chase after you after taking a Dimension Door, otherwise, they will chase you down even to the start of a quest whilst each enemy swings at your last location and repeats it again and again. No amount of running at Superman or Flash speeds will ever let you lose aggro with the current version in play.
2. Or, enemies need to be able to occupy the same x y axis on a map and detect for you after swinging (and not hitting anything) and then you sitting tight until they lose aggro (easier with less enemies) - I am assuming this is the "player is dead" check as well to tell enemies to stop swinging. So long as you can (again) gain enough distance away from them then, you will no longer have aggro (but the distance needed is silly large to avoid enemies from retriggering). This obviously can't be done everywhere as the Devs specifically try to avoid having things for players to perch on to enable something like from happening.
3. But, so long as any enemy has your aggro still, group aggro mechanics means everyone will start up again periodically (and you are unable to lose aggro). This means normal Reapers will ruin everyones day immediately.
4. It also means that casters when facing a teleporting enemy that comes into the vincinity (and aggros on them first as they qualify now) can no longer rely on going/being Invisible and letting that enemy swing in the air. This is terrible for a multitude of reasons, since an Invisible Healer could spam heals in general safely, but once aggro'd the Healer will no longer be able to just concentrate on healing, but need to avoid the enemy as well if the rest of the party is not attentive enough to pull the enemy away from them.
So from that, we can tell that the missing part is for enemies to stop after a few attempts at tracing your last location and failing to get a result without magically knowing where you are even when you are quite far away (otherwise they will keep repeating with no end to it). (Point 1)
I literally dragged ALL the "blinded" enemies from A Sharn Welcome from the Bear room all the way back to the start, and only using DD after going invis stopped the aggro; otherwise each "blinded" enemy will just keep running to your last location and keep doing so until they have swung at your present location (x y axis on map) at least once before they drop aggro. (Point 2)
So the satisfaction (in code) that they have checked that you're no longer there is not being fulfilled currently. (Point 1 and 2) I am assuming once that is put in, this should work more as intended.
I would request that this not be deployed to Live servers yet (especially in its current incarnation), as we have no idea if the changes made for the next iteration will cause other uninteded results. Unless if the Devs would like me to deploy 24 characters each Purple Alerting a Dungeon and then retreating to safety to cause server performance issues for everyone, because - you know I would be happy to do that (for science!).
J1NG
1. The enemies will never stop even after swinging at your last location and repeat this until you can lose aggro entirely by being non-detected (stealth/invis) and then immediately at a distance that is much greater than what enemies can use to chase after you after taking a Dimension Door, otherwise, they will chase you down even to the start of a quest whilst each enemy swings at your last location and repeats it again and again. No amount of running at Superman or Flash speeds will ever let you lose aggro with the current version in play.
2. Or, enemies need to be able to occupy the same x y axis on a map and detect for you after swinging (and not hitting anything) and then you sitting tight until they lose aggro (easier with less enemies) - I am assuming this is the "player is dead" check as well to tell enemies to stop swinging. So long as you can (again) gain enough distance away from them then, you will no longer have aggro (but the distance needed is silly large to avoid enemies from retriggering). This obviously can't be done everywhere as the Devs specifically try to avoid having things for players to perch on to enable something like from happening.
3. But, so long as any enemy has your aggro still, group aggro mechanics means everyone will start up again periodically (and you are unable to lose aggro). This means normal Reapers will ruin everyones day immediately.
4. It also means that casters when facing a teleporting enemy that comes into the vincinity (and aggros on them first as they qualify now) can no longer rely on going/being Invisible and letting that enemy swing in the air. This is terrible for a multitude of reasons, since an Invisible Healer could spam heals in general safely, but once aggro'd the Healer will no longer be able to just concentrate on healing, but need to avoid the enemy as well if the rest of the party is not attentive enough to pull the enemy away from them.
So from that, we can tell that the missing part is for enemies to stop after a few attempts at tracing your last location and failing to get a result without magically knowing where you are even when you are quite far away (otherwise they will keep repeating with no end to it). (Point 1)
I literally dragged ALL the "blinded" enemies from A Sharn Welcome from the Bear room all the way back to the start, and only using DD after going invis stopped the aggro; otherwise each "blinded" enemy will just keep running to your last location and keep doing so until they have swung at your present location (x y axis on map) at least once before they drop aggro. (Point 2)
So the satisfaction (in code) that they have checked that you're no longer there is not being fulfilled currently. (Point 1 and 2) I am assuming once that is put in, this should work more as intended.
I would request that this not be deployed to Live servers yet (especially in its current incarnation), as we have no idea if the changes made for the next iteration will cause other uninteded results. Unless if the Devs would like me to deploy 24 characters each Purple Alerting a Dungeon and then retreating to safety to cause server performance issues for everyone, because - you know I would be happy to do that (for science!).
J1NG
Zerging is fine. I enjoy that
Zerging in a way that detrimentally affects everyone else is not though.
J1NG
I can do things others can't...
Something I forgot to test, given that in order to utilise Bluff safely, stealthing is often desireable as when you fail, you leg it and when you get far enough the enemies only reach your last known position and may attempt to seek you out in that region but they will stop aggro soon enough.
Yet with the way the current implementation appears to work, the moment you attempt to bluff, any failure means everyone that is triggered will be on your hind end until you're dead or they are. So that's a major change from how it works on Live also.
J1NG
Yet with the way the current implementation appears to work, the moment you attempt to bluff, any failure means everyone that is triggered will be on your hind end until you're dead or they are. So that's a major change from how it works on Live also.
J1NG
Positive thinking
Well-known member
It gets destroyed because it steals from my pleasure and many other players pleasure because it causes lag freezes in other instances being played by other players.
As for my playstyle and the speed at which I play the game, i wont bother feeding into your obvious lead, as it is the logical thing to not do.
Please SSG, do whatever it takes to put an end to a playstyle that anyone is using that taxes the servers heavily and causes lag for many other instances, make it harsh and make it severe for such participants. It is the logical way to make the game better for the larger percentage of people. The needs of the many outweigh the eeds of the few, logically.
Blerkington
Well-known member
Torc,
You really need to abandon this nonsenical system of monsters chasing 'echoes' as an underpinning of the stealth system.
It makes zero logical sense that monsters should be following a previous position when they cannot detect the character at all. None. Stick to the 3.5e ruleset (ie, opposed skill checks) and don't use AI cheats so that monsters get knowledge they couldn't possibly have.
Let those monsters aware of a character's presence but not their exact location use a finite search pattern instead, where each one in a group is assigned to check a section of an area where the PC was last detected and leave it at that.
What you are trying to do is continuing down a path that has shown itself to be a failure in several important ways. You're not following the game's rules, monster AI isn't respecting what it plausibly could and couldn't know, and it's costing too much processing power. It's pure folly, nothing less.
Please, in a game that has been plagued with lag for years, cut your losses and adjust your approach so we get a stealth system that makes sense and doesn't needlessly contribute to lag.
Thanks.
You really need to abandon this nonsenical system of monsters chasing 'echoes' as an underpinning of the stealth system.
It makes zero logical sense that monsters should be following a previous position when they cannot detect the character at all. None. Stick to the 3.5e ruleset (ie, opposed skill checks) and don't use AI cheats so that monsters get knowledge they couldn't possibly have.
Let those monsters aware of a character's presence but not their exact location use a finite search pattern instead, where each one in a group is assigned to check a section of an area where the PC was last detected and leave it at that.
What you are trying to do is continuing down a path that has shown itself to be a failure in several important ways. You're not following the game's rules, monster AI isn't respecting what it plausibly could and couldn't know, and it's costing too much processing power. It's pure folly, nothing less.
Please, in a game that has been plagued with lag for years, cut your losses and adjust your approach so we get a stealth system that makes sense and doesn't needlessly contribute to lag.
Thanks.
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ACJ97F
Well-known member
Wait, when did DDO have a stealth experience? Monsters detect that through walls, while half-asleep.
I've seen people perform dark project level feats of stealth both on youtube and ingame, if you've never experienced it i'm afraid that's probably a pilot issue.Wait, when did DDO have a stealth experience? Monsters detect that through walls, while half-asleep.
Broken Old Monk
Keep All Void and Elemental Finishers Please?
Check the year on those videos. Stealth use to be better than Invisibilty after they took Invisibility off God Tier Cheat Code once it was being Exploited. Nowadays though, They give the monsters and reapers all the cheat codes and now most the time when we need our defenses the most, they went out their way to nerf them to make game play harder and essentially wasting our investment in most stuff in enhancements and go for max DPS to survive cause their idea of challenging, isn't quite the same as a true rpg, or Dungeons and Dragons is at all angles. Monster slaying is fun and all, but how RP-Y is it for a rogue to not be able to sneak thru a quest unseen, unheard? And Dungeons ans Dragons isn't always suppose to be about kill, kill, kill! Sometime a good story is worth far more than Phat L00t and Mad Xp from killing everything. Be nice to see more Dungeons and Dragons approach of multiple ways to solve problems aka quests? Why can't why try bribing the monsters? i seen it in Ravenloft, need more encounters like that but better still, combat in DnD suppose to be a last resort not a must do. Really troubles my Pacifist Monk ahaving to kill so much........Thank God for Gold seal Perma Hires. love my Owlbears!
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I agree. I was responding to the assertion 'when did ddo have a stealth experience' not addressing its current state. It stood out to me because I am more bothered by its lessened viability than i would be if it had never been good. :(
While I do know one person who's all in on it *now* to great success, he goes to extremes that we shouldn't have to.
Positive thinking
Well-known member
I think proper stealthing should be part of the game and functional, similar to a ghost recon type of stealth where if someone spots you they are able to raise an alarm, same if someone spots you performing a stealth kill. If you can go around eliminating targets one at a time or sneaking past them all is good.
But i dont think you should be able to run and be invisible and ignore mobs, this should be detectable by mobs and with alerts should allow mobs to teleport directly to zergers doing this and causing stress on the servers for all players in the game. Teleport the mobs in a circle around the zerger and kill that zerger almost immediately, of course this should happen on red/purple alerts only, as sometimes people are running to survive lol.
Frieling Slyhand
Well-known member
Why not code the mobs to stop looking for a stealthed player after a certain number of failed detection checks?
You are trying to solve a problem with a nerf hammer instead of a scalpel.
Also, you should look at the mob alert system you guys put in a year or so ago as that clearly causes the whole instance to lag horribly as dozens of monsters all go crazy trying to find a player they hate. Have you checked to see how purple alerts bleed over onto other instances, causing server wide lag?
You are trying to solve a problem with a nerf hammer instead of a scalpel.
Also, you should look at the mob alert system you guys put in a year or so ago as that clearly causes the whole instance to lag horribly as dozens of monsters all go crazy trying to find a player they hate. Have you checked to see how purple alerts bleed over onto other instances, causing server wide lag?
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Positive thinking
Well-known member
First lets determine what actions you personally are taking to cause purple alerts and then we can start a discussion on how best to address purple alerts causing other instances lag.
As I recall when they first put in the changes to dungeon alert to include purple alerts, there were zergers so angry that they said they were purposely going to induce as much purple alert as possible.
Broken Old Monk
Keep All Void and Elemental Finishers Please?
I get purple alerts and I go slower than slow thru quests and rarely skip killing monster or having my lackies do it fro me if I on my pacifist toon. I think it is way too over sensitive and it does cause more problems than good. Just like the Tumble changes thanks to Strimtom teaching everyone thru YouTube how to exploit the movement burst from experimental tumbling, forcing me to have to heavily invest Feats and Skill Points if I wish to Tumble more than once or Twice when using the Ethereal Tumble fro the Epic Feat or from Deep Gnome cause those abilities been pretty much ruined completely otherwise and still suck horribly comparatively. I don't get why they just couldn't have removed the speed boost from Tumbling but instead got this extra UI element I now forever stuck with thanks to all those Tumboleena's out there and wannabe Sonic Hedgehogs.
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