Lamannia Preview 2: Pathing Perf Change for Blind Behavior

[Torc]

does invisibility actually mean anything in the monster AI?

Invis basically reduces their aggro range somewhat. If you get to close it starts making stealth checks but if your not sneaking you will auto fail the move silent component and the mob will start walking towards you (assuming it isn't already fighting someone else).

I'm getting the impression from Torc's comment here that it hasn't gone live yet. So hopefully in 73.1?

Looking back @ the release notes, there's no mention of pathing changes.

The changes we tested on Lamannia should be currently disabled on live. We are aiming for 73.1 but are still actively working on edge cases so we'll see.

 

[Phaedra]

I'm getting the impression from Torc's comment here that it hasn't gone live yet. So hopefully in 73.1?

Hopefully when it's working and ready, and not pushed live to meet some arbitrary timetable.

 

[Kitty2Meow]

Invis basically reduces their aggro range somewhat. If you get to close it starts making stealth checks but if your not sneaking you will auto fail the move silent component and the mob will start walking towards you (assuming it isn't already fighting someone else).

The changes we tested on Lamannia should be currently disabled on live. We are aiming for 73.1 but are still actively working on edge cases so we'll see.

Please have another Lamannia preview for the Pathing Perf Change before releasing on live.

 

[Driaza]

If i have to chose between lag that affects the entire server and a less than perfect game experience can you not implement a change along the lines of

If they never saw you they were never activated as usual
If they saw you then you go invis, they continue to chase you / attack you but have like a 95% miss chance?

I am biased in that i dont rely on stealth or invisibility for 99.99% literally of my game experience so i get the above may be unacceptable for some rogue players but i litterally only use Stealth or Invisibility when running Stealthy Reposession - and even then its more for funsies than need to

I am guessing the majority of players dont stealth that much either and i would 100% rather less lag

 

[Redoubt]

Vertical agro has been a problem for a long time now. If you can stop mobs who are not on the same level as the player from activating (and then trying to path vertically through maze like structures) it seems like a lot of your pathing budget would be freed.

Reaper snitches... if a player successfully uses stealth past a mob or group of mobs, then later finds a reaper, that reaper currently can give the player location to all the previous mobs. I would guess that a medium to large number of mobs all suddenly pathing horizontally (and maybe vertically) uses a lot of the pathing budget. Maybe don't allow the reapers to give away your position to mobs beyond a certain distance and never vertically through the floor or ceiling???

Limit mob response to invis and stealth characters and also to out or sight characters. Any time a mob does not actually see a character but does think something might be there, yes they should investigate. Send them to the "echo" ONCE. When they get to the echo, have them investigate as appropriate for their class/race etc. If they don't find the character at the first echo, then either return them to their previous activity or deactivate them. Most mobs are henchmen anyway, not continuing to search beyond the initial investigation would be the normal behavior.

In the vein of limiting the response you can have a variety of types of response (most of which would reduce pathing load). For example, you could have guards on a door that are curious. These mobs would leave their guard spot to investigate (stealth and invis could sneak around). Some mobs would be less curious and unwilling to leave their post out of duty or fear (these would frustrate steath and invis because they can't be pulled from their spot.) You could have exceptionally intelligent mobs who know the weakness of the dungeon or where the valuable treasure is that instead of going to look where they think the invis or stealth character is, run to where they think they will intercept the character (this would be preplanned/scripted path so likely less pathing load.)

The bottom line, when you talk about going to the character's echo, why do the mobs follow the character when they never actually find them? This seems like your pathing load problem. My observations say that mobs continue to go from echo to echo even without a reason to know where the next echo is. The process to stop this behavior is broken. The second problem is chain agro where mobs without line of sight are alerted.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I got blamed for a Doom Reaper killing a player when he was at the Rest shrine in a Sharn's Welcome, when it was him who D Door'd and ran back up to the shrine to rest. The Doom Reaper passed right by me as if I didn't matter to him, to go for the guy resting by the shrine and killed him, thus him thinking I aggroed the Doom Reaper to him but the Doom Reaper was blinded by his triggered aggro response when he even Ddoor'd away.

There is a problem also that you can't stealth and switch items while in Stealth and maintain your bonus to Sneak Speed, you crawl as if you were a Level 1 player in Korthos. They need to address this loss of Stealth bonus also when switching weapons/items or dropping down or jumping up to ledges/uneven terrain.

If you want this, the way to do it would be to propose a way to have stealth play be as risky and take as much time as combat.

The game has to be balanced around risk:reward and time:reward, with a modifier for skill required. That was the reason stealth got nerfed so hard before - it was letting people zerg quests with near-zero chance of death, and all it really took was pumping your stealth stats high enough to make you undetectable.

Likewise with social optionals...its OK occasionally, but that cant be a whole alternative gameplay mode, because all it requires is having high enough stats and knowing what option to choose.

I play stealth and it takes four times as long to complete a dungeon solo then it would for a group playing all together, Tsunami styling through each room, I can't afford to just bring every mob to the center and AOE Nuke them all with a Spell/Multi-Vial/or Barbaric Cleave, I'm not Tank-like and my class isn't built as a Training Dummy Totem Pole to absorb those hits. I have to reposition in Stealth for each mob waiting for an opportunity to attack while not being detected by other mobs near by or "The Gig is Up" if detected. The proposed changes would make it worse as Stealth(which is already screwed and got "lapped screwed" again) is nearly impossible to play anymore properly(Stealth movement bug on Live still) What good does it do for 'Measure the Foe" Stealth Enhancement when you end up moving like Gary the Snail(SpongeBob's pet) and get Splattered by a mobs hit even though you are over 10 feet away from them.



Unfortunately Stealth takes a very long time to complete a quest. The Invisible Zerg/Wing/Multi-step movement is really not Stealthing at all, as it requires no Move Silent Skills at all; but maybe it needs to have a pre-requisite like add; A player must be able to have trained "Hiding in Plain Sight" for it to be effective.
I agree there should be a tweak in Invisibility in that if you don't have a high enough Move Silent Skill then Monsters should be able to hear you loud and clear. Maybe have player leave Footstep marks on the Floor like the Cosmetic Rewards Golden Footprints, that some players turn on, that way a Monster can follow those "Footprint" sounds but with the programming that those "Sounds" eventually disappear after 3-5 seconds from leaving that area.


Social Optionals should be more prevalent in dungeons, as it is part of a class of players who get inherent bonus' to it. Just like a Barbarian or Horc have the inherent skill of Brute Strength to "Solve" their problems, social classes should have their "ways" of solving problems.
Some people Argue their way out of a problem while others just haul back and sucker punch you if they don't agree.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Sharn's Welcome Difficulty was Reaper 10 Legendary instance. (2 manning quest)

 

[Terpilar]

Yesterday I was about to enter Stealthy Repossession, then remembered the stealth changes and went all nah, let's do something else.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I thought Double Strike/Shot removal was going to improve lag by removing the "effects" of the attack.
Now no more Double Strike/Shot effects that many Players use to rely on for their strategic attacks is gone.
Stealth has been targeted to fail and watered down since Reaper was introduced.
Only Barbaric Fighting and Squiggly Casting is what this game is being funneled to be. oh and the Pecos Bill gun-slinging Hipster Shooter too.

Thus comments like, "Oh just get rid of Stealth tactics, since I don't play that way" to "Fix Lag" come from; the play style has been so ostracized to the point of it being relegated to the annals of "What is a Pay phone Booth"

 

[Sormiron]

I am wondering if these problems are remnants of the changes that was made to make stealth/invis less op way back in time. I am talking about when yellow/purple agro was added. before that you could take one level of wizard for 1 enhancement point and spell point invis as a rogue wich was very powerfull for just skipping quests. kill one mob, invis, stealth, repeat was a fun tactic. mobs would slash around for a bit and then walk back to posts.
After those changes the agro would not drop and you could end up agroing the whole map doing that same tactic. mobs would instantly reagro once out of stealth again.
this is memmories i have from old quests in the harbor.

I am not sure what this means exactly in terms of coding and performance today exactly.
Do the mobs have coded memmory for these things?
If so, why not make a check to see if a player has been out of line of sight/hearing long enough, to avoid mobs chasing through the map after a ddoor and such, then erase the agro or simply undo what was done back then with the persistant agro? If anyone still working remembers what it was that is.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Back in the day Stealth was a slow process that with avoidance could make up some time by avoiding many encounters to balance out the slow pace that Stealthing/Crawling would take.
Then came the Abundant Step/Wings x2/ with Invisibility that took a Class style tactic and exploited(I don't have a problem with completion speed and can encourage it.) what "Some" Developers/Producers didn't want to happen, at the expense of a playstyle that was the opposite of "Zerg".

In fact theoretically a thief should be the fastest completion-er of quests as their objective is to go in fast and leave faster with the Loot, thus avoiding Conflict. (Maybe allow lvl18/ Rogue-Darkhunter-Ninja Spy(all Thieves) Tier V Enhancement to unlock "Locked" End Chests/Doors.)

But as of this writing the Playstyle is Bonk, Bonk; Twissle Cast or Pew-Pew Six Shooter your way through the Dungeon Masters whim. I remember a time when The Ballad of a Bard would whisk away and Compose his way to victory, that playstyle is also come undone. Bonk-Bonk: - Wolverine RAZOR CLAW!*




*there is nothing wrong with other playstyles and can be fun amongst its lineage.




Love Hamburgers but don't want to eat them for Breakfast/Lunch/and Dinner

 

[VinoeWhines]

Fix the Stealth bug Crawl like a Slug bent over and reamed at the Dungeon Experience.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I'm in Stealth left of door, a member opens the door others at back in front of door, mobs rush toward me and archers light me up. Fix Stealth....