Lamannia U76 - Balance Pass

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Lotoc

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*If* thats the case then the Devs obviously could, should and would have mentioned it in the OP.
But - they didnt - which sadly makes wild guesses like yours worsen the situation rather than give hope.

I have yet to see *any* post from a Dev that acknowledges that casters are in a very bad shape both in high reaper quests and in raids. Before that happens I will unfortunately have to view your guess here as trying to blindside casters into false hope though I am very certain that was not your intention.

High reaper quests. The main isnt is not that casters are too weak. The main issue is that martial dps kills packs in mere seconds so there is rarely time to cast more than 2 spells. This does not leave room for making caster play interesting nomatter what kind of buffs they might (or might not) receive. Thus the game needs to slow down a bit to become interesting again - and the simpler solution by far is to give martial damage the same r7+ multiplier that magic enjoys. Buffing casters - no matter how - cannot solve the issue alone.

Raids. Casters need alot better sustained damage AND better burst damage. More so though raids need to be designed with dangerous mobs and encounters that strongly favor casters where today the few mobs that do favor casters are very easily killed by martial dps too.
Have you done the last two raids at all?
The spreading flames in Threats Old and New make bringing more than a single melee a liability on higher difficulties, additionally ranged and casters can perch while doing the portal keepers.
The hydra in Den of Vipers does so much incidental damage in melee range and constantly launches melee around the room that melee just get relegated to add duty.
 

Kitty2Meow

Well-known member
ii. Unyielding Sentinel - Celestial Mandate now applies Battle Guard per target hit instead of it's previous buff. (if you are using a shield it always applies 1 extra even if you completely miss). Battle Guard: Lasts 12 seconds and stacks 5 times, 10 MRR/PRR per stack. Blocking for more than 3 seconds removes all stacks.
While you are at Unyielding Sentinel, would it be possible to take a look at the T3: Rule of Law? It is currently not very useful.
Suggestion (to give Hate Tank a little bit of DPS):
Rank 1: Your Unyielding Sentinel Destiny Mantel and holding a shield now grant Melee attacks 1d6 Law Damage per half of Character Level, scales with 200% Melee Power.
Rank 2: Your Unyielding Sentinel Destiny Mantel and holding a shield now grant Melee attacks 1d6 Law Damage per Character Level, scales with 200% Melee Power.
 
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Kitty2Meow

Well-known member
Epic:
i. Fury of the Wild Epic Strike Quick Cutter - Cooldown increased to 8 seconds. Quick and Bleed duration changed to 10 seconds. Bleed damage reduced to 1d6 per character level. Bleed Damage is increased by rank 1 of Spirit of the Beast by 1d6 and Rank 1 of Primal Force for a net total of 3d6 (Change Not in this build)
Would it be possible to increase Primal Force Attack Bonus to +[2/4/6] ?
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
Have you done the last two raids at all?
The spreading flames in Threats Old and New make bringing more than a single melee a liability on higher difficulties, additionally ranged and casters can perch while doing the portal keepers.
The hydra in Den of Vipers does so much incidental damage in melee range and constantly launches melee around the room that melee just get relegated to add duty.
In a different game you could say that melee and casters are actually balanced well for high skull raiding. Melee are much more risky/vulnerable, whereas casters are safer but do less dps. Of course ranged breaks this hypothetical by being better at both...
 

Bjond

Well-known member
Y'all probably don't hear this much, but these changes look fantastic. Nicely thought out!

  1. All weapons that benefit from the Finesse feat now innately use the higher of Dexterity or Strength for to-hit and damage, just like more recent D&D
In the recent D&D vein, perhaps alter tactical feat DCs to use a weapon's best "to-hit" or "to-dam" attribute instead of only STR?

10. Improved Precise Shot now passively increases the Ability Score Modifier bonus to damage for Longbows and Shortbows by +50%, including when the stance is off. This stacks with Precise Shot.
Giving Bows a reason to want IPS is nice, but I can't see using it for non-Bow. Likely more work than you'd want, but I'd love to see it become a ricochet style hit. The through-hit is an interesting idea that just doesn't work well at all in game.

You could maybe reuse the chain-lightning code for how the ricochet works to save time.

If looking to adjust AP costs, there is a tree with costs that are waaaay overblown: GMOF. Compare filling nodes there with other trees. Many things cost 3 AP to fill and should be 1 or 2 AP for the full node. I'd split Wholeness & Focus into separate nodes and reduce Wholeness CD to match Primal Scream's. Primal's heals MUCH more and has 30s CD compared to 60s Wholeness.

Maybe Radiant and Sonic dragon types to Draconic Incarnation? It's rough playing a caster class that lacks immunity break (that would give them a type that's less prone to immunity). Alternative, an immunity break for your dragon type, particularly if passive, would also make more blasters viable in Epics.
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
Have you done the last two raids at all?
The spreading flames in Threats Old and New make bringing more than a single melee a liability on higher difficulties, additionally ranged and casters can perch while doing the portal keepers.
The hydra in Den of Vipers does so much incidental damage in melee range and constantly launches melee around the room that melee just get relegated to add duty.

The perch for portal keepers has been removed.

As for "relegated to add duty" - thats still much more than casters being left outside the raid entirely.

You are correct that those raids favor ranged - but they sure dont favor casters. Caster dps is not burst enough for heads compared to ranged - and caster dps is not sustained enough for the amount of hp on bosses.

Quests: Melee > Ranged >> Casters
Raids: : Ranged >> Melee >>> Caster
 

Striga

Well-known member
13. Soul Eater
i. Supreme Hunger now costs 1AP
ii. Feed on Magic now costs 1AP
Soul Eater could use a lot more love. In particular the six single-target SLAs deserve major cleanup.
(Consume, Stricken, Consume Sight: Blindness, Dark Feeding, Burning Blood, Steal Lifeforce)
Several of these are weak and useless. I have suggested some things one could do. (Buff them, combine them, add more debuffs.)
 

Abiding Dude

Well-known member
All these changes to throwing/ranged feats. +50% ability damage x2, Str or Dex main stats etc. makes me think the next Archetype might be Throwing Axe/Hammer centered. A throwing barb?

Always thought throwing weapons should work different from Bows/Cbows anyway. Instead of going through enemies with Improved Precise Shot, perhaps a Ricochet Shot (similar to warlock chain)?
pretty dumb with shuriken at least that we can't thorw out in a cone
 

Abiding Dude

Well-known member
Martial throwers just need a tree to support them and a counterpart to Simple thrown weapon expertise/shuriken expertise.
If you go giving them +2 multiplier than that just means they get left in this bad spot and SSG will be afraid to give them proper support
Like with Heavy Maces being in the state they are because Scourge exists.
i dont think any of that precludes making heavy throwing weapon do way more damage per missile but with less missiles, like a feat driven +2 crit multiplier
 

Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
Casters are tired of waiting to be decent. Seeing a raid that's a pain in the ass for us (another more!) and then an update that buffs melee (who don't need buffs) and gives nothing to casters, but nerfs divine casters (Deathward ruined), is nothing to celebrate or want to wait any longer.

Especially since removing the penalty would be quick. They should remove it already.
100% agree... My Wizards not run a quest in over a month now, just login to touch base and collect daily dice.
 

gravisrs

From DDO EU servers
>>iii. Divine healing now scales with 50% positive spell power (only 50% since the duration is so long). Will now have a line of sight check, double spell range (ray range)

Still not useful at all. Base formula needs to change (taking cleric level / CL into account). 4d6 (avg 14) is bollocks on legendary...
It should be 1 hp per cleric level / caster level. AND THEN 50% of spellpower on top.

Or just align it with positive energy aura - 1hp per 3 cleric levels + 100% healing spellpower.
 

Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
So stupid question:

With DW now acting as just another type of 50% absorb to direct damage spells... Does DW also provide a 50% rate vs DC based spells such as Finger?

If yes, then what does this mean for players?

I mention this as negative damage immunity isn't so much of an issue as blanket immunities vs. DC spells. Personally, i believe the Dev's should leave DW alone with the exception of being able to dispel it from mobs. Maybe our Dev's would be well served by playing a DC caster in Epics before they start tinkering with shyte they clearly do not understand.
 
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Wisefreelancer

Well-known member
I am really confused about the reaction to the DW change.

I honestly didn't realise DW blocked negative damage, and never saw that as its most important feature. It provides immunity from instant-death spells and energy drain, which are both really useful.

Some people have talked about how broken shadowdancer energy drain immunity is - I really don't get it. It doesn't block instant-death or energy damage at all, and you can get it as a paladin or VKF (which every melee was for the capstone, apparently). Some bizarre takes.

I would still take DW in a heartbeat on a build that could cast it.

FvS and Cleric spell lists do need some buffs of course, particularly to buff spells. The Paladin equivalents are disgustingly better (MP, stacking PPR/MRR, doublestrike...) - let some other divines have some fun at some point.

I like all these changes.

I'd love to see some tweaks to the other rogue trees too - assassin still has expensive tier 5s, and could use its morale doublestrike on kill changing to morale melee power on kill (given its a knife wielder so will get 20 morale doublestrike from vistani for 3 AP anyway). Its power also comes from core 18, which basically means no CC abilities at all for the spec which just doesn't work for melees in this game anymore. It was built for a different era of stealth gameplay, and while not useless, it could use some tweaks for the current one.
 

J1NG

I can do things others can't...
*If* thats the case then the Devs obviously could, should and would have mentioned it in the OP.

We can also say no one was expecting this "balance" pass "now" too. Otherwise would have mentioned it somewhere prior also no?

But - they didnt - which sadly makes wild guesses like yours worsen the situation rather than give hope.

I have yet to see *any* post from a Dev that acknowledges that casters are in a very bad shape both in high reaper quests and in raids. Before that happens I will unfortunately have to view your guess here as trying to blindside casters into false hope though I am very certain that was not your intention.

Wasn't to give hope - just logical deduction.

High reaper quests. The main issue is not that casters are too weak. The main issue is that martial dps kills packs in mere seconds so there is rarely time to cast more than 2 spells. This does not leave room for making caster play interesting nomatter what kind of buffs they might (or might not) receive. Thus the game needs to slow down a bit to become interesting again - and the simpler solution by far is to give martial damage the same r7+ multiplier that magic enjoys. Buffing casters - no matter how - cannot solve the issue alone.

It's funny, there's another bunch of caster players who are saying that the R7+ debuff is the problem and it should be gone. See why the Devs should say anything when the playerbase has such wildly opposing takes to each other? They're playing the same card of "don't reveal your hand until they do".

Raids. Casters need alot better sustained damage AND better burst damage. More so though raids need to be designed with dangerous mobs and encounters that strongly favor casters where today the few mobs that do favor casters are very easily killed by martial dps too.

I fully agree with this idea, but also need to point out that DDO is not very complex in certain circumstances. And how things are right now, it likely doesn't know what is a REAL spell (launched by spending Spell Points and a Caster Class) and what is coming from a Weapon that triggers such effects. Meaning this likely is not something that can be easily done or if at all at this point; but, if it can be done, it'll take time - which again means if they're announcing it now, they wouldn't have been tackling the server merge, transfer difficulties, etc lately.

J1NG
 

Kyrr

Well-known member
We can also say no one was expecting this "balance" pass "now" too. Otherwise would have mentioned it somewhere prior also no?



Wasn't to give hope - just logical deduction.



It's funny, there's another bunch of caster players who are saying that the R7+ debuff is the problem and it should be gone. See why the Devs should say anything when the playerbase has such wildly opposing takes to each other? They're playing the same card of "don't reveal your hand until they do".



I fully agree with this idea, but also need to point out that DDO is not very complex in certain circumstances. And how things are right now, it likely doesn't know what is a REAL spell (launched by spending Spell Points and a Caster Class) and what is coming from a Weapon that triggers such effects. Meaning this likely is not something that can be easily done or if at all at this point; but, if it can be done, it'll take time - which again means if they're announcing it now, they wouldn't have been tackling the server merge, transfer difficulties, etc lately.

J1NG
The problem with the caster nerf was it wasn't necessary. It affected the higher performing caster nukers and classes and it just targeted all of them instead of the selective outliers that were the problem. Furthermore, it's been almost roughly 2 years having to deal with the change that, since then, has seen multiple buffs to melee and ranged to help them perform against DPS casters and its' outliers.

I am, as a caster main, out here preaching that casters did not deserve that nerf, and should still have it reverted, *OR* everything needs to have the 10% penalty. It's either or, it's not fair to discriminate towards the caster category when 2 of the 11 (the minority) of casters were overperforming.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I am really confused about the reaction to the DW change.

I honestly didn't realise DW blocked negative damage, and never saw that as its most important feature. It provides immunity from instant-death spells and energy drain, which are both really useful.

Some people have talked about how broken shadowdancer energy drain immunity is - I really don't get it. It doesn't block instant-death or energy damage at all, and you can get it as a paladin or VKF (which every melee was for the capstone, apparently). Some bizarre takes.

I would still take DW in a heartbeat on a build that could cast it.

FvS and Cleric spell lists do need some buffs of course, particularly to buff spells. The Paladin equivalents are disgustingly better (MP, stacking PPR/MRR, doublestrike...) - let some other divines have some fun at some point.
Shadowdancer is just one example of how weapon users can easily acquire an enhancement that does the same thing as Death Ward, but better, because it's not dispelled. We have Deathblock from level 1 on items. Martials have Energy Drain Immunity on many sources, including Vistani, yes, which nowadays 90% of melee classes use.

The only advantage of Death Ward over those non-dispellable and permanent sources was that it also eliminated negative damage. Turning it into the Fire Shield of negative energy is a joke, really.

Are they going to leave any decent spells? Spells *should* be better than the external sources that mimic them, because they are class features. And currently, one by one, they've destroyed all the spells. I've said it before, FOM; Haste, Displacement, Neutralize Poison... these are just a few examples of spells that have become useless because they've been made ubiquitous outside of the classes that should have them.

If they want to do this, the change should only affect enemy spells. After all, mob spells work differently than ours, so why affect player Deathward as well?

Although I should point out that this doesn't solve the problems of negative casters, since deathwarded enemies are only one part of the enemies immune to negative energy. Besides, half damage is a joke, really. If they want to do it right, at least against deathward, they should implement magic dispel mechanics. In PnP, a very common strategy is to cast Dispel Magic and a spell in the same round (one of them quickened). Well, they should add deathward dispels to the players' negative damage, for example. Here we would already be talking about an elegant solution.


Divine casters shouldn't have their spells nerfed just because they don't know how to solve the problem of negative casters, especially when the solution is so obvious. They're not going to leave a single decent spell, and in the meantime, they're giving all the nerfed spells to other classes that shouldn't have them, and they're doing it by making those sources better than the spells themselves! (permanent and not dispellable). It's a joke at our expense.
 
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