Lamannia U76 - Balance Pass

[VinoeWhines]

I've never understood arguments like this. Who cares which classes are included in the group ? The goal is not to "assemble a group of different classes", but to "complete a dungeon".
I've never really paid attention to this in any game. Even if a 40-person raid enters a single dungeon and everyone plays the same class, what difference does it make ?

The argument(One of them) is to stop removing abilities to classes where, those that give up in those classes(and move to new/different Classes) because the "new" or "improved" classes get all the perks and not necessarily an "easy" button but a much easier, buttons, to complete dungeons.

Look at how Casters have been relegated to not be able to play certain Raids and this practice has happened to other classes in the past, where they get prejudiced to not be accepted in Raids or Upper Reaper Dungeons because of their icon.

It's not seen as much now as in the past but it still happens.
If I put up an LFM I let pretty much anyone join, under-level doesn't matter or class type. I go into it as, I should be able to solo the dungeon at worse and preferably run as a group smoothly and helpfully to others if they need it. Free Reaper XP for them is ok.

Other games might not focus attention to Class builds but DDO was one of them that had put an emphasis on Class types from the beginning.
To go through the process and "learn" and "uncover" new abilities and tactics in Dungeons was a great drawing point to this game.
"Weakening" or making mobs "Vulnerable" was a rewarding thing to learn, to get better at and Master in dungeon was very rewarding.
Much of that has been removed or watered down.
Other games might not focus on these things and players coming from other games, to Dungeons and Dragons Online might not notice the nuance; but this is what made this game different and a "wanting" to get involved more into your build to continue to excel and improve your abilities in more difficult content.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Not necessarily for those that are using weapons or their Enhancement Tree is improved upon.
Bards use Sonic for one their Damage Types, so they get bonus' to this damage type.
Rogues Sneak Damage is Untyped in their Tree.
Monks use Force Damage as well, etc.

All these sequences their damage focus, "type" and would be welcomed for that class.
3d6 Slash damage per Character level every 2 seconds for 8 seconds is nice and each Martial Epic Destiny Tree could benefit from their "themed" Damage like Draconic damage allows players to focus on their element.
They added Elemental Dice in Heroic Enhancement Tree and this would consequentially fall in line. The other issue is allowing Vulnerability to that damage type be available not just to a Few Classes but to those who have it even be a choice in the first place in their Enhancement Trees.

Still very inconsequential. The damage value is far more important than the type for attacks.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Still very inconsequential. The damage value is far more important than the type for attacks.

If it's inconsequential, why does majority of Melee choose Quick Cutter as its Epic Strike?
What was suggested would put the other Epic Strikes at least with the same power curve.
The damage value just adds to the type of attack for its Class focus. It's not an if =<> or but an Epic Strike damage that is not at an equal footing.
Not sure if your rebuttal is discussing the same point as how to improve Martial Trees Epic Destinies, Epic Strike.
The damage value depends also on what damage type is being done.

 

[Solarpower]

People enjoy different things.

Well, let them enjoy it. What difference does it make to them what others enjoy ? Why look at who is playing who and complain about it, instead of enjoying the character you are playing ?

Or are you saying they just join a raid and enjoy watching other players ? And they're really upset that everyone's playing the same class ? Then they don't do anything themselves; they simply have no time to do anything, they just watch others. And such people should simply be kicked out of raids, as they're of no use.

If the game becomes so unbalanced that everyone is forced to play a style they don't like, then the game dwindles and dies.

Everyone ? Forced ?
I started playing casters, and I still play that way. And I don't feel any pressure. On the contrary, everyone keeps saying that you can't play casters now...

Look at how Casters have been relegated to not be able to play certain Raids

I need to go on raids to see it. Unfortunately, the LFM remains empty.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I need to go on raids to see it. Unfortunately, the LFM remains empty.

I'm all for playing what you like. I can attest to that. As I play Rogue and mess around with Casting here and there. Been doing Range as well before. I play a hybrid style so not highest of either or, can get you in trouble with lag but I like options.

The game has been pigeon holed to be a Bash Fest, either in Melee or Casting and the game has lost allot of it's nuance. Like how the Monk pass removed the build up to its playstyle.
I never played it but can imagine it being a chop to the legs for those that took the effort to learn it and master it. That has happened to my stealth playstyle as it kept getting removed, tactics thrown out the window and just go in a room and AOE kill everything, Ask Questions Later...


I remember running R10's in A Study in Sable farming Golem's Heart. Would set up Noise Makers/Web Traps and other Magical Traps to tactically remove the vampires or other mobs. Glitterdust spiders. Range some mobs with LGS(Leg Green Steel) Salt to slow them down. Shadow Manipulate a mob to draw aggro to get in Sneak Attacks to take them out, and Offhand Assassinate another mob after Assassinating two that are attacking my Dominated puppet.

All that got removed in game.
Along with:
Cheat Death.
Mechanical Canine Companion.
Vorpal on 20.
Executioners Strike/Shot.
Meld into Darkness(stand alone Improved Uncanny Dodge, which could of just been reduced to 45-50% uncapped Dodge)
Consume(a very helpful way to get out of a cornered area).

None of that was overpowered(Meld could of just been reduced % wise).

 

[Solarpower]

The game has been pigeon holed to be a Bash Fest, either in Melee or Casting and the game has lost allot of it's nuance. Like how the Monk pass removed the build up to its playstyle.
I never played it but can imagine it being a chop to the legs for those that took the effort to learn it and master it. That has happened to my stealth playstyle as it kept getting removed, tactics thrown out the window and just go in a room and AOE kill everything, Ask Questions Later...

So. If a game stops being fun, people abandon it and look for a replacement.
None of this "forces you to play a class you don't like," and certainly doesn't answer the original question of "why do people care what class other people play ?".

 

[Shear-buckler]

If it's inconsequential, why does majority of Melee choose Quick Cutter as its Epic Strike?

Because it is a low cooldown point blank AoE, double hitting with crit profile bonuses and a decent amount added extra damage dice. That the extra damage is typed as slashing is irrelevant.

 

[VinoeWhines]

So. If a game stops being fun, people abandon it and look for a replacement.

And people have abandoned it, whether they look for a replacement is up to them. I'm not suggesting abandoning the game or replacing it, I'm focusing on this game and these issues that have crept into the game. Specifically the Class I run but have noticed it being somewhat widespread to other classes as well. People have invested time and money on this game and for the goal posts to be moved, at times with a Maul instead of a scalpel has caused valid grief.

None of this "forces you to play a class you don't like," and certainly doesn't answer the original question of "why do people care what class other people play ?".

I'm not playing a class I don't like and still play the class I stay with(Rogue), though others play the class like a different version of what it's intent was, and that's fine, as anyone can play a class the way they want.(a 20 Cleric that's not a Healer, a 20 Wizard Melee).

That original question, "why do people care what class other people play?" was not brought up by me, as I don't pay attention to that; but their are obvious choices, many people copy in character builds and mimic.
I will stick to playing the class I like; and I always enjoy learning from other classes-play style and tactics and in that way, I might change up a few things and test out certain mechanics, as I'm sure others go back and forth in trying out Epic Destinies or Feats and seeing what works better.

In my case my "feats" and "enhancements" keeps getting removed or changed around, or given to other Class Trees and becomes a frustration of having to keep getting gutted and sucker punched, to where many have just left the game for that.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Because it is a low cooldown point blank AoE, double hitting with crit profile bonuses and a decent amount added extra damage dice. That the extra damage is typed as slashing is irrelevant.

I'm not pinning the Major focus on Quick Cutters, low cool-down point blank AoE, double hitting with crit profile bonus' in and of itself as a problem, I'm stating that each Martial Epic Strike should have a similar damage build up.

The "Slash" damage is the theme of the Tree and what I was suggesting was the "type" damage be of different "type" for each Epic Strike's Tree with the "same" damage profile but with it's "themed" type of damage, to separate itself.
Oozes don't do well with blunt damage, zombies don't resist slash damage, those are topical points of reference but can come into play when they're Orange/Red named, I'm sure more so, it then becomes relevant.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I'm not pinning the Major focus on Quick Cutters, low cool-down point blank AoE, double hitting with crit profile bonus' in and of itself as a problem, I'm stating that each Martial Epic Strike should have a similar damage build up.

The "Slash" damage is the theme of the Tree and what I was suggesting was the "type" damage be of different "type" for each Epic Strike's Tree with the "same" damage profile but with it's "themed" type of damage, to separate itself.
Oozes don't do well with blunt damage, zombies don't resist slash damage, those are topical points of reference but can come into play when they're Orange/Red named, I'm sure more so, it then becomes relevant.

If the only difference between the epic strikes is the damage type of the extra damage then they are all the same.

Your focus on damage type sounds like an AI chatbot who has not actually played the game.

 

[VinoeWhines]

If the only difference between the epic strikes is the damage type of the extra damage then they are all the same.

Your focus on damage type sounds like an AI chatbot who has not actually played the game.

What are you suggesting the damage number be between Martial Epic Destiny Trees? Only one Tree have the Highest damage only?
My focus isn't on damage type, it never was, it was a suggestion to have different "types" but that the output be the same amount of damage numbers as Melee damage.
Your hanging around to many AI chatbots to not know how to have a discussion of this game. Do you actually have a history with this game to see the changes it went through? I layed out how I use to play the game and it seems your AI responses don't take into consideration but only blurb 2D comments.

The balance pass is what is being discussed. I brought that the Epic Destiny Strikes for Martial Trees are not on par with damage output. They spread Quick Cutter out more but that doesn't change the end result. I'm suggesting to balance out the other Epic Strikes for the Martial Trees to be closer to Quick Cutters damage totals by Tier III-IV in strikes and cooldowns.
Why does Drifting Lotus have to have a 15 second cooldown? Dire Charge 12 Seconds? All less damage, Shadow Strike only 50% damage with no raise to that number?
Don't bring up silly comparisons with AI and how about a discussion of what you purport to be discussing. What is a rebuttal to what I am stating, should be a better proposition, to fix the discrepancy in Epic Strikes for Martial Trees? Discuss your opinion, then countless AI responses nitpicking "type" damage uselessness. I shouldn't have to correct your responses but when I do ask AI a question, that seems to be the pattern of having to correct it's Mal-usumption to the facts.
Again what do you suggest the "fix" be to these discrepancies?

 

[Shear-buckler]

What are you suggesting the damage number be between Martial Epic Destiny Trees? Only one Tree have the Highest damage only?
My focus isn't on damage type, it never was, it was a suggestion to have different "types" but that the output be the same amount of damage numbers as Melee damage.
Your hanging around to many AI chatbots to not know how to have a discussion of this game. Do you actually have a history with this game to see the changes it went through? I layed out how I use to play the game and it seems your AI responses don't take into consideration but only blurb 2D comments.

The balance pass is what is being discussed. I brought that the Epic Destiny Strikes for Martial Trees are not on par with damage output. They spread Quick Cutter out more but that doesn't change the end result. I'm suggesting to balance out the other Epic Strikes for the Martial Trees to be closer to Quick Cutters damage totals by Tier III-IV in strikes and cooldowns.
Why does Drifting Lotus have to have a 15 second cooldown? Dire Charge 12 Seconds? All less damage, Shadow Strike only 50% damage with no raise to that number?
Don't bring up silly comparisons with AI and how about a discussion of what you purport to be discussing. What is a rebuttal to what I am stating, should be a better proposition, to fix the discrepancy in Epic Strikes for Martial Trees? Discuss your opinion, then countless AI responses nitpicking "type" damage uselessness. I shouldn't have to correct your responses but when I do ask AI a question, that seems to be the pattern of having to correct it's Mal-usumption to the facts.
Again what do you suggest the "fix" be to these discrepancies?

I dont want the epic strikes to all be identical. And no, different damage types is not enough to differentiate them, as damage type is largely irrelevant. Its the classic example of the same spell but different colors; it is not true variety.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I dont want the epic strikes to all be identical. And no, different damage types is not enough to differentiate them, as damage type is largely irrelevant. Its the classic example of the same spell but different colors; it is not true variety.

Well apparently that is not what others are(as well as I) are stating, that the Epic Strikes are far apart from what a Balance Pass has done.
What class are you playing? A Melee Class? And what type? Fury of the Wild is not what I would prefer to use and the other Epic Strikes are very under-powered compare to Quick Cutter. If Drifting Lotus was 8 seconds or Dire Charge, then it would be a choice but when they are double the cooldown, then it's a problem.
What do you have against parity in damage? Are you the King Class that can only have your choice? If your a Melee build, your doing Damage with a Melee swing, either Two Handed, Single Handed or swinging with Two Weapons, what difference does it make if the totals are the same on an Epic Strike? Obviously TH weapons have better AOE, Single Weapon has the Speed, Two Weapon should have the Damage totals.
I would even side with each Epic Trees Strike be different but have comparable damage at the upper Tiers but that's not the case now.
Quick Cutter, is the only choice for most amount of damage repeatedly, while the others don't offer anything to give it a strong consideration; maybe The Sword Sings, but that would be geared to Sonic builds, which is fine. but GMoF and Shadow Dancer and Legendary Dreadnaught to some extent are way behind in damage output, compared to Fury of the Wild.

What variety would you give the other Trees Martial Epic Strikes then?

 

[Shear-buckler]

Well apparently that is not what others are(as well as I) are stating, that the Epic Strikes are far apart from what a Balance Pass has done.
What class are you playing? A Melee Class? And what type? Fury of the Wild is not what I would prefer to use and the other Epic Strikes are very under-powered compare to Quick Cutter. If Drifting Lotus was 8 seconds or Dire Charge, then it would be a choice but when they are double the cooldown, then it's a problem.
What do you have against parity in damage? Are you the King Class that can only have your choice? If your a Melee build, your doing Damage with a Melee swing, either Two Handed, Single Handed or swinging with Two Weapons, what difference does it make if the totals are the same on an Epic Strike? Obviously TH weapons have better AOE, Single Weapon has the Speed, Two Weapon should have the Damage totals.
I would even side with each Epic Trees Strike be different but have comparable damage at the upper Tiers but that's not the case now.
Quick Cutter, is the only choice for most amount of damage repeatedly, while the others don't offer anything to give it a strong consideration; maybe The Sword Sings, but that would be geared to Sonic builds, which is fine. but GMoF and Shadow Dancer and Legendary Dreadnaught to some extent are way behind in damage output, compared to Fury of the Wild.

What variety would you give the other Trees Martial Epic Strikes then?

Yeah I dont like the current balance either, but fixing it by making all epic strikes identical is the wrong way forward. As someone said earlier, imbalance is the price we pay for variety and we will gladly pay it.

My suggestion is to nerf quick cutter and rework dire charge to be a strike instead of a janky charge.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Yeah I dont like the current balance either, but fixing it by making all epic strikes identical is the wrong way forward. As someone said earlier, imbalance is the price we pay for variety and we will gladly pay it.

My suggestion is to nerf quick cutter and rework dire charge to be a strike instead of a janky charge.

I can get behind that(fixing Epic Strikes), but what should the damages be? For each? Should one have more than the other? Imbalance is the cost of being short sighted and not real variety, and many have the wrong thinking and paid for it.

I'm proposing a base change, not the final run. If others want to chime in that would be great. Just shooting an idea down without a suggestive improvement, derails the conversation.

This is a big grief the devs have when they put out Previews. They want to hear Constructive Input. People just tapping in and saying "this is terrible", "this sucks", "your bad at design", is not a progressive discussion.
If something isn't correct, then give a boiler point, of at what gauge it should be, to not get(become a) heated(argument) and become a spill over of something else.

"but fixing it by making all epic strikes identical is the wrong way forward" in what...damage? in animation? The fact that your swinging a Melee weapon? What's wrong with Numbers being flat? How many people are using the "same" attack sequences to get the "numbers" they were told they can hit?
We're not inventing new forms of attacks, but if I hit "Trip" it should "Trip" the mob.
If your THF then it should be able to "Hit" more mobs.
If your SWF then it should "quickly" strike faster.
If your TWF then it should hit "Twice" as many times.

if something is 3d6x3 + base damage + Character level+"cloud damage" for eight seconds, then the variety is on how your attacking. THF vs SWF or TWF.
Haste%, DoubleStrike, Strikethrough, Offhand Doublestrike are the "variety" effects. The clickable buttons on Epic Destiny Strikes should be the same base dice and can be boosted by Tree focus, that's why Shadow Dancer Epic Strike, has Sneak Dice(which is fine) but the 50% is weak and should be boosted in upper tiers to be on par with Quick Cutter, same as Drifting Lotus 15 second double cooldown of Quick Cutter. Dire Charge is skittish in how it attacks but the idea isn't neccesarily wrong as it's a Charge but it should be fixed to be more predictable and its Damage should be improved upon in upper Tiers.
My suggestions is a basic starting point in damage. The devs can always tweak it from that point.
Again my Tree is a Splash Tree for now when before it was a cornerstone for Stealth players in the past. Im not seeing variety, Im seeing Castration.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I can get behind that(fixing Epic Strikes), but what should the damages be? For each? Should one have more than the other? Imbalance is the cost of being short sighted and not real variety, and many have the wrong thinking and paid for it.

I'm proposing a base change, not the final run. If others want to chime in that would be great. Just shooting an idea down without a suggestive improvement, derails the conversation.

This is a big grief the devs have when they put out Previews. They want to hear Constructive Input. People just tapping in and saying "this is terrible", "this sucks", "your bad at design", is not a progressive discussion.
If something isn't correct, then give a boiler point, of at what gauge it should be, to not get(become a) heated(argument) and become a spill over of something else.

"but fixing it by making all epic strikes identical is the wrong way forward" in what...damage? in animation? The fact that your swinging a Melee weapon? What's wrong with Numbers being flat? How many people are using the "same" attack sequences to get the "numbers" they were told they can hit?
We're not inventing new forms of attacks, but if I hit "Trip" it should "Trip" the mob.
If your THF then it should be able to "Hit" more mobs.
If your SWF then it should "quickly" strike faster.
If your TWF then it should hit "Twice" as many times.

if something is 3d6x3 + base damage + Character level+"cloud damage" for eight seconds, then the variety is on how your attacking. THF vs SWF or TWF.
Haste%, DoubleStrike, Strikethrough, Offhand Doublestrike are the "variety" effects. The clickable buttons on Epic Destiny Strikes should be the same base dice and can be boosted by Tree focus, that's why Shadow Dancer Epic Strike, has Sneak Dice(which is fine) but the 50% is weak and should be boosted in upper tiers to be on par with Quick Cutter, same as Drifting Lotus 15 second double cooldown of Quick Cutter. Dire Charge is skittish in how it attacks but the idea isn't neccesarily wrong as it's a Charge but it should be fixed to be more predictable and its Damage should be improved upon in upper Tiers.
My suggestions is a basic starting point in damage. The devs can always tweak it from that point.
Again my Tree is a Splash Tree for now when before it was a cornerstone for Stealth players in the past. Im not seeing variety, Im seeing Castration.

No. I want there to be a meaningful choice in selecting which epic strike fits best for your build.

 

[VinoeWhines]

No. I want there to be a meaningful choice in selecting which epic strike fits best for your build.

For instance what strike for your build?

 

[Shear-buckler]

For instance what strike for your build?

If quick cutter wasnt so grossly OP i would be using shadow strike for the dodge buff and lotus for the aoe stun.

 

[VinoeWhines]

If quick cutter wasnt so grossly OP i would be using shadow strike for the dodge buff and lotus for the aoe stun.

Seems you never tried Shadow Dancer before the change. That dodge buff was separate from an Epic Strike. It was never part of a Strike.
So what would you put Quick Cutter at? Damage wise?

 

[Necrodancer]

Seems you never tried Shadow Dancer before the change. That dodge buff was separate from an Epic Strike. It was never part of a Strike.
So what would you put Quick Cutter at? Damage wise?

That is actually a point in Shear's favor. What you're talking about was "meld into darkness" and offered 100% uncapped dodge for 15 seconds or so. It was so godly divine gooder bestest that EVERY melee used it.

Shear is simply saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the dodge bonus offered by shadow strike and even the stun from lotus are NOT good enough to pass on the dps offered by quick cutter because you don't need to dodge nor stun if your enemy is dead. Not dying, not undead, DEAD.