Lamannia U76 - Balance Pass

[Shear-buckler]

Seems you never tried Shadow Dancer before the change. That dodge buff was separate from an Epic Strike. It was never part of a Strike.
So what would you put Quick Cutter at? Damage wise?

I am not sure why you assume that. I have played the game since 2007 and know very well how meld worked before. The old meld twist was far too strong.

15 second cooldown and no extra damage.

 

[VinoeWhines]

That is actually a point in Shear's favor. What you're talking about was "meld into darkness" and offered 100% uncapped dodge for 15 seconds or so. It was so godly divine gooder bestest that EVERY melee used it.

Shear is simply saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the dodge bonus offered by shadow strike and even the stun from lotus are NOT good enough to pass on the dps offered by quick cutter because you don't need to dodge nor stun if your enemy is dead. Not dying, not undead, DEAD.

Shear has not responded to how he would "fix" Quick Cutter, just that he would pick Shadow Strike dodge bonus but doesn't on Live. I have not argued for Meld Into Darkness to stay at 100% uncapped dodge on Live and it would of been fine if they lowered it to 45-50% uncapped dodge. "Everyone" also picked Dire Charge and Daunting Roar.
What's the difference, in that "everyone" chooses, Meld(back then) and now "everyone(melee)" chooses Quick Cutter? Just like the complaints that got Casters watered down in R7+ in damage.
People are complaining that "everyone" is choosing the same thing and another group are complaining that "who cares" if everyone is picking the same thing("class/style").
So who is "correct" or "flavored" or "freedom of choice" right in the Balance pass?


Everyone knows that the Dodge bonus in Shadow Strike doesn't kill mobs or Drifting Lotus doesn't kill mobs, neither does Quick Cutter. You still have to build up your Melee Strike to capitalize on the Melee damage and that's not the argument.

The question is..."what should Quick Cutter be?

 

[VinoeWhines]

I am not sure why you assume that. I have played the game since 2007 and know very well how meld worked before. The old meld twist was far too strong.

15 second cooldown and no extra damage.

Well you assumed I get my info from Chat AI? See how those responses don't equate to furthering a discussion? You actually haven't said how you would change Quick Cutter to balance it out compared to other Epic Strikes. What would be your Quick Cutter Epic Strike?

We're looking for a Balance Pass. What is the strike then suppose to be?

 

[VinoeWhines]

I'm not saying to "Nerf" Quick Cutter. I'm stating to improve Shadow Strike and all other Melee Strikes in their Trees.
My main gripe is that Shadow Dancer is a Splash Tree, when before it was a stand alone stealth Tree, that got butchered and patchworked to be an OK illusion Caster Tree but a shell of a Stealth/Sneak deceptive Melee/Range Tree.

There was no point in:

• Splitting +6 Assasinate DC's and Sneak Skills (now have to waste 3 more points to get it again.)
• Removing Shadow Manipulation (and giving it to Shiradi who almost no one even chooses.)
• Removing Executioner Strike/Shot (and not replacing it with something similar.)
• Removing Consume (and putting Weird, where you couldn't even pick it before but now you still can't pick it because the DC's are not +Assassinate, like how Ascending Bite is in Dhampire's "+ Stunning" ).
• Meld into Darkness being relegated into a position where no one will pick it over Melee damage Strike.
• Tumble Through Enemies mysteriously got removed...
• Shadow Walk clicky was removed in the Core.
• Improved Invisibility got removed.
• A 10d6 exploding AOE on range attack damage with Dark Imbuement got removed.

 

[Necrodancer]

Dude, are you really arguing with yourself and getting worked up for a thread of 2 updates ago? Are you aware SSG does not give a flying kite nor a digging mole about our feedback?

These threads are opened to give players the illusion of interaction. Wait 5 more years (if not more) and get back with your "suggestions".

 

[Shear-buckler]

Well you assumed I get my info from Chat AI? See how those responses don't equate to furthering a discussion? You actually haven't said how you would change Quick Cutter to balance it out compared to other Epic Strikes. What would be your Quick Cutter Epic Strike?

We're looking for a Balance Pass. What is the strike then suppose to be?

Your posts about how "damage types" are defining was the typical AI slop that sounds profound and true but is actually complete BS.

I said how I would change QC in the very post you quoted, and regardles even if I didnt have a suggestion that does not make your terrible suggestion any better.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Dude, are you really arguing with yourself and getting worked up for a thread of 2 updates ago? Are you aware SSG does not give a flying kite nor a digging mole about our feedback?

These threads are opened to give players the illusion of interaction. Wait 5 more years (if not more) and get back with your "suggestions".

No one is arguing with oneself and getting worked up for a thread 2 updates ago. I don't give a crap about a game and get butt hurt over it. I can state what is wrong with a game and continue to do so. I'm busy doing other things and this is but a very small inconsequential game. So much so that I don't even TR, though I did one TR 1/4 way on an alt to hang out with some cool guys that wanted to TR and run some R4's leveling up.

My suggestions seem to go to other Trees is what I've noticed. So there's that. But that doesn't stop from me putting out suggestions.
I know others give out their suggestions and the difference is I don't reply with a bunch of nonsense but if I reply to them I'll give a suggestion or ask to further clarity on what they are suggesting.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Your posts about how "damage types" are defining was the typical AI slop that sounds profound and true but is actually complete BS.

I said how I would change QC in the very post you quoted, and regardles even if I didnt have a suggestion that does not make your terrible suggestion any better.

I was posting so that if a dev did come across this(obviously low chance in and of itself but still out there) and damage types is what IS in the actual Epic Destiny Tree and just like they did a pass to raise the elemental dice for casters across different elements, I was basing the strike to follow suite on damage with the "Types" just being "thematic" with the Tree it is coming from.
Fatesinger IS a "Sonic" and "Electric" themed Tree.
Grandmaster of Flowers is tied to "Force" and Ki themed Tree.
Shadow Dancer is tied to "Sneak/Untyped" themed damage.
If you don't like the way the Devs "themed" the Trees that's not my fault. I didn't have a say in it. I'm just steering the Trees to be improved upon with their own Boilerplate they created.
My suggestion is not terrible, it's an extension of theirs that brings up the other Martial Epic Strikes to be on par with Quick Cutter. That's not my game design, I didn't conceptualize this idea to be the design, it's a balance suggestion of what is out of balance as that is what everyone at the end would prefer the game to be, within the totality of the game.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I said how I would change QC in the very post you quoted, and regardles even if I didnt have a suggestion that does not make your terrible suggestion any better.

If you did say how you would change QC,(I try to read the entirety of a Post and it's thread before commenting) but I didn't catch it and would ask what it was?

 

[VinoeWhines]

Standing Stones game developers do care about Feedback. They don't care for comments that state, "this sucks", "it's trash", "you destroyed my build". They are open to hearing suggestions, or ideas or "new effects", that doesn't mean they'll implement them a majority of the time, but if they see that it "makes sense" to them they can pass it along. I see we can craft Quality stats now on named items that also except Enhancement Stats on them. They made the Solar/Lunar augments to further customize "named set bonus". It's not 100% yet.( I still ask for +3 Artifact to all stats Solar augment and a Solar augmented Raid ring at the least but should be a named ring as well.)

I'm still waiting for quality and insightful tactics/assassinate colorless augments.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I was posting so that if a dev did come across this(obviously low chance in and of itself but still out there) and damage types is what IS in the actual Epic Destiny Tree and just like they did a pass to raise the elemental dice for casters across different elements, I was basing the strike to follow suite on damage with the "Types" just being "thematic" with the Tree it is coming from.
Fatesinger IS a "Sonic" and "Electric" themed Tree.
Grandmaster of Flowers is tied to "Force" and Ki themed Tree.
Shadow Dancer is tied to "Sneak/Untyped" themed damage.
If you don't like the way the Devs "themed" the Trees that's not my fault. I didn't have a say in it. I'm just steering the Trees to be improved upon with their own Boilerplate they created.
My suggestion is not terrible, it's an extension of theirs that brings up the other Martial Epic Strikes to be on par with Quick Cutter. That's not my game design, I didn't conceptualize this idea to be the design, it's a balance suggestion of what is out of balance as that is what everyone at the end would prefer the game to be, within the totality of the game.

The theme of gmof is not force damage.
Quick cutter is not popular because the typing of the extra damage is slash. You are making ad-hoc rationalisations to support your suggestion.

Yes your suggestion is terrible. Making all epic strikes identical is one of the worst suggestions I have ever seen.

 

[VinoeWhines]

The theme of gmof is not force damage.

The theme of damage for GMoF is Force damage.
Grandmaster Strikes: Multiselector:

• Drifting Lotus: Epic Strike: Melee Cleave attack: Deals +10/20/30% Damage. +1/2/3 Critical Multiplier. +1/2/3 Critical Threat Range. Deals 1d6+5 Force damage per character level to all enemies struck. The force damage scales with the higher of Melee or Ranged power, and is doubled versus Tainted Creatures (Undead, Abberations, Evil Outsiders). Cost: 30/25/20 Ki, Cooldown: 15 seconds

Quick cutter is not popular because the typing of the extra damage is slash.

Yes your suggestion is terrible. Making all epic strikes identical is one of the worst suggestions I have ever seen.

I never said Quick Cutter is popular because of the extra slash damage.

• Quick Cutter: Cleave Melee Attack (Epic Strike)Deals +10%/+20%/+30% Damage. +1/+2/+3 Critical Threat Range. (Cooldown: 8 seconds.) This attack strikes all enemies around you twice. When you activate this ability, you gain Quick if you successfully strike a target, and all enemies hit gain Cutter.
  • Quick: +6% Dodge. Duration: 9 seconds.
  • Cutter: 1d6 Slash damage per Character Level every 2 seconds. Stacks 3 times, scales with 200% Melee Power. Duration: 8 seconds. This damage cannot crit, but will do double damage if the last hit with the ability was a doublestrike.

We know why it's popular, and actually the "extra" slash damage can take out a mob after you have hit it and the dots take it out in R10s at times when your jumping or avoid the mob and engaging another mob, it's like having a ghost hireling hitting the mob while your away from them.
the extra damage being Slash only matters if the mob is resistant to it, which again is very little in importance but has some relevance.

The Epic Strikes wont be identical as your weapon's base damage, crit profile, crit multiplier wouldn't be the same as others using THF or TWF.
If the devs are going to stick with their "themed" Trees then the suggestion is to bring up the other Trees Epic Strike to resemble an "Epic Strike"
Quick Cutter to me seems like a "valid" Epic Strike, make the other Epic Strikes valid in damage.
You stated you don't like it. That's not an argument of me trying to convince you, but your not putting any suggestion to have even a dev look and say, "Shear has a better valid point then Vinoe in suggesting how we can fix the other Trees Epic Strikes."
This porridge is too cold....doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[Necrodancer]

No one is arguing with oneself and getting worked up for a thread 2 updates ago.

'scuse me, your 4 posts in a row made me think otherwise. Carry on, I'm sure devs are watching you right now.

 

[VinoeWhines]

'scuse me, your 4 posts in a row made me think otherwise. Carry on, I'm sure devs are watching you right now.

it's ok, 4 posts "in a row", expounding on a thread does seem to confuse some, I guess they can only cache so much, it's ok, no worries.
Ya I'm sure the devs are watching..... or at least a moderator. Maybe they'll relay some info back to them like how Salacious B. Crumb would.

 

[Necrodancer]

OK

 

[Shear-buckler]

The theme of damage for GMoF is Force damage.
Grandmaster Strikes: Multiselector:

• Drifting Lotus: Epic Strike: Melee Cleave attack: Deals +10/20/30% Damage. +1/2/3 Critical Multiplier. +1/2/3 Critical Threat Range. Deals 1d6+5 Force damage per character level to all enemies struck. The force damage scales with the higher of Melee or Ranged power, and is doubled versus Tainted Creatures (Undead, Abberations, Evil Outsiders). Cost: 30/25/20 Ki, Cooldown: 15 seconds

That the ability does some additional force damage does not make the theme of the tree force damage. No one would ever describe gmof as "the force damage tree".

You are only imposing the significance of the damage types to support your suggestion that the epic strikes should only differ in damage type and not damage values. But the fact remains that damage type is largely incomsequential, its the damage value that matters.

I never said Quick Cutter is popular because of the extra slash damage.

• Quick Cutter: Cleave Melee Attack (Epic Strike)Deals +10%/+20%/+30% Damage. +1/+2/+3 Critical Threat Range. (Cooldown: 8 seconds.) This attack strikes all enemies around you twice. When you activate this ability, you gain Quick if you successfully strike a target, and all enemies hit gain Cutter.
  • Quick: +6% Dodge. Duration: 9 seconds.
  • Cutter: 1d6 Slash damage per Character Level every 2 seconds. Stacks 3 times, scales with 200% Melee Power. Duration: 8 seconds. This damage cannot crit, but will do double damage if the last hit with the ability was a doublestrike.

Yes you did:

Still very inconsequential. The damage value is far more important than the type for attacks.

If it's inconsequential, why does majority of Melee choose Quick Cutter as its Epic Strike?

The Epic Strikes wont be identical as your weapon's base damage, crit profile, crit multiplier wouldn't be the same as others using THF or TWF.

If you make the strikes identical they will be identical and there will be no meaningful choice between them. That other factors affect them is irrelevant.

You stated you don't like it. That's not an argument of me trying to convince you, but your not putting any suggestion to have even a dev look and say, "Shear has a better valid point then Vinoe in suggesting how we can fix the other Trees Epic Strikes."
This porridge is too cold....doesn't get us anywhere.

Increase the cooldown and lower the damage.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Yes you did:

You typically pull out one line from the overall concept and focus on one part of the suggestion. I never stated type is the most important part of the damage. I ask why do people choose Quick Cutter as a Melee Epic Strike(somewhat slight rhetorical in asking.)

Not necessarily for those that are using weapons or their Enhancement Tree is improved upon.
Bards use Sonic for one their Damage Types, so they get bonus' to this damage type.
Rogues Sneak Damage is Untyped in their Tree.
Monks use Force Damage as well, etc.

All these sequences their damage focus, "type" and would be welcomed for that class.
3d6 Slash damage per Character level every 2 seconds for 8 seconds is nice and each Martial Epic Destiny Tree could benefit from their "themed" Damage like Draconic damage allows players to focus on their element.
They added Elemental Dice in Heroic Enhancement Tree and this would consequentially fall in line. The other issue is allowing Vulnerability to that damage type be available not just to a Few Classes but to those who have it even be a choice in the first place in their Enhancement Trees.

I was suggesting just as Elemental Dice raise damage, so could each Trees Epic Strike do as well.
If Quick Cutter wants to have it's: Damage 30% x Two strikes AOE "and" 9d6 x 4 D.O.T. (with possible Doublestrike) that's fine.
I was suggesting to raise the other Epic Strikes as well. Would it get you so upset that other Epic Strikes do the same damage? Why? So that it's not the same?
So you and others are suggesting, no leave it alone, we want diversity, even if other Trees being weaker equal "diversity"?
If they straight out implemented the Epic Strikes to be the same on the very next patch update, would you and others quit?

I put out a suggestion, I didn't mandate it to be so, it was a Suggestion....no one brought up a "better" suggestion, though you did say "make the cool-down longer and half the damage...." I prefer too raise the tides of the other Epic Strikes to be on par with Quick Cutter, not necessarily nerfing Quick Cutter, but if that's their solution. I guess it's a better solution to what it is now compared to the other Melee Epic Strikes that are much weaker.

 

[Shear-buckler]

If they straight out implemented the Epic Strikes to be the same on the very next patch update, would you and others quit?

If they dont, will you and others quit?

 

[VinoeWhines]

That the ability does some additional force damage does not make the theme of the tree force damage. No one would ever describe gmof as "the force damage tree".

That is absolutely true....even worse, it's own description, calls it a splash Tree...(how sad)...

Description​

This destiny is primarily for the Monk class, the Sacred Fist archetype, or anyone who wishes to take advantage of centering, handwraps, and Ki. In addition, it also provides a number of useful enhancements for melee combat, thus being a potential auxiliary tree for those with a martial focus.

You are only imposing the significance of the damage types to support your suggestion that the epic strikes should only differ in damage type and not damage values. But the fact remains that damage type is largely incomsequential, its the damage value that matters.

The damage value is 30% x2 AOE on 8 second cooldown. Tier I.
You want them to make it 20% x2 AOE on 12 seconds?

But it "Should" focus on it more, is tied to what I'm suggesting, not the "only thing".
They can bring up the main damage as well. This is where the diversity can come into play.

If your a Barbarian, your recklessness Slashes everything in sight(AOE). What Quick Cutter is.
If your a Bard, you hit your Sound damage Conically.
If your a Stealth/Rogue type you have a way to induce Sneak/Helpless damage.
You know Monks use inner Force to accomplish amazing things. Bring that out in its Strikes.
I never neglected the "damage value" but suggested to improve upon the Archetype of what the Tree is and tie its Damage value to it.
Machrotechnic lets everyone use Rune Arms...

 

[VinoeWhines]

If they dont, will you and others quit?

I've been playing since Rogues had Cheat Death and made Mechanical Dogs...no haven't quit the game, with all the take aways they've done to the Class I play still.....Vorpal on 20 bye bye...(Monks still kept theirs).