Lamannia Update 66 Preview 2 - Epic Destiny Refresh

[karthunk]

I personally welcome most of the changes. The max caster level change is a bit extreme, but will bring casters and martials down to the same playing field for end game.
Can we get the damage reduction for casters in high reapers removed now that we've rejoined the martials in reasonable numbers land?

What? Melee is already dominating R10s as far as DPS goes.

 

[Tyrbeorn]

Shiradi Champion Bugs:
- Despite being moved to Tier 2 the Friend or Foe Multiselector maintains it's previous level prerequisites with Enemy of My Own being level 26 and Fey Form being level 30, respectively.
- Hunts end retains its level 20 prereq despite being in T3 now.

 

[Griglok]

• New Multiselector with Angelic Form: Wrathful Form: "Casting a Fire, Light, Alignment, or Positive Spell causes you to be surrounded by fire and light for 5 seconds, damaging all enemies nearby every 2.5 seconds for 1d6 Fire and 1d6 Light damage per caster level. This damage will not strike dazed targets unless they are also stunned. Subsequent spellcasts extend the duration by an additional 5 seconds, up to a maximum of 15. This ability ends when you leave combat. Your Positive Healing spells heal 1d6 extra Positive Healing per caster level. This has a cooldown of 5 seconds before it can trigger again."
• Angelic Form is now: "Your offensive Fire spells deal 1d6+6 bonus Fire damage per caster level, and your offensive Light spells now deal 1d6+6 bonus Light damage per caster level. Your Positive Healing spells heal 1d6 extra Positive Healing per caster level. These damage effects each have a unique cooldown of 5 seconds." (this is pretty much what was here before, but with slightly different heal scaling and no % chance)

I'm happy you left the original version in there as an option as you aren't going to be able to take many hits if you're building a Cleric that's focused on nuking. I'm going to test the aura later today on a Survivable Healer Cleric build to see how the damage "feels" when it's bonus damage from the healer in the mix.

Divine Casters would greatly benefit from an equivalent epic feat to "Master of Knowledge". Call it "Master of Wisdom" and have it proc off of searing light/holy smite.

• Ascendance is now: Epic Moment. For the next 20 seconds, your single-target Cure Wounds spells you cast on any target now instead apply to all allies. These spells cannot crit. For the duration of this ability, Raise Dead and Resurrection also raise your target to full HP like True Resurrection does. Finally, your Turn Undead can now turn any type of creature regardless of genus, can destroy things it turns, and you gain +3 to each Turn Undead stat per Religious Lore feat.

+3 to each Turn Undead stat per Religious Lore feat is pretty strong. 20 seconds of destroying anything that isn't warded with Turn Undead is going to be amazing. This also means that Favored Soul, Paladin and Bard will also be able to have very strong turning with this epic moment active, which is great in my opinion.

I still feel that giving the entire party a 20-second duration Divine Intervention would be better than boosting raise dead and resurrection. I can't think of an instance where I would rather have boosted raises than beckon divinity.

• Chain Cure projectile set to Ludicrous Speed and added homing so it hits your allies more often

This is a HUGE QoL change. Thank you for addressing this.

• Bane of Undeath now allows you to use your character level instead of your class level for Turn Undead

This is another huge change for Turn Undead. I'm going to need to write an updated guide for 2024 once these changes are live. I see Turn Undead being more widely used after these changes and less dependent on specific gearing and past lives.

• Delayed Judgement DC scaling is now enchantment

The damage for this will still be all over the map. 10d50 gives a range of 10 to 500. Would rather it be a set number like ruin/greater ruin and just be 500 fire and 500 light damage that scales with spell power.

 

[Griglok]

Do you live in opposite world?

It would seem that a lot of folks playing THF conflate damage per attack with damage per second. They see big numbers (250K crits) and think they are doing top damage while ignoring other DPS factors like attack speed. I had a barb like that in our pug raid group a week ago, sure... they hit hard but for every attack they made our other melees hit the same target 4-5 times. Pure speculation on my part, but I would guess that this is the reason many are divided on the adren changes. DPA <> DPS

 

[Abax11]

Can't argue too much on healings aura nerf and breath nerf because i didn't play those ones but you literally cut the only interesting thing in playing a ranger build nerfing HE final damage. you added some CC and some aoe that is still worse than melee and caster AOE in despite of nerfing probably the only highlight of playing a ranger build, his single target.

Bear in mind that this is not Path of Exile where players are accostume to do toons every 3 months from scratch and yet people cry when devs destroy almost any build from a season to another.

 

[Shear-buckler]

It would seem that a lot of folks playing THF conflate damage per attack with damage per second. They see big numbers (250K crits) and think they are doing top damage while ignoring other DPS factors like attack speed. I had a barb like that in our pug raid group a week ago, sure... they hit hard but for every attack they made our other melees hit the same target 4-5 times. Pure speculation on my part, but I would guess that this is the reason many are divided on the adren changes. DPA <> DPS

No. I think people realise that adrenaline is far superior to other strikes in terms of "static DPS" and even better when in practice when you can pre-load your charge between fights and spend much of the cooldown outside of combat.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

Ranged is already in a terrible place DPS-wise compared to melee as dungeon difficulty scales up. While I appreciate the attempt by the devs to open up ranged build options to not be reliant on Ranger 6 for combining Hunt's End + Sniper Shot, the current implementation is a kick in the groin. HE + Sniper Shot is *fun* because seeing huge numbers is *fun*. Being able to delete or near-delete a mob in high skulls with HE + SS is *fun*. The current Hunt's End implementation does not "spark joy" the same way.

I moved away from ranged builds a year ago. I have zero desire to play them in the current state, and certainly would not want to play them with the proposed U66 changes. The new AoE attacks don't come anywhere close to bridging the chasm with melee.

I would ask that developers please consider the words of players like Ying, myself, and others who have spent hundreds of hours playing ranged builds and are explaining what a dramatic, style-crippling nerf this change to Hunt's End will be. Ranged combat already suffers from a myriad of escalating nerfs (IPS, not getting a 25% HP bonus in trees) or tactical issues with the game (dry shots that don't trigger due to stuttering and lag). Altering the current Hunt's End as proposed is cataclysmic for archers.

 

[Guntango]

It would seem that a lot of folks playing THF conflate damage per attack with damage per second. They see big numbers (250K crits) and think they are doing top damage while ignoring other DPS factors like attack speed. I had a barb like that in our pug raid group a week ago, sure... they hit hard but for every attack they made our other melees hit the same target 4-5 times. Pure speculation on my part, but I would guess that this is the reason many are divided on the adren changes. DPA <> DPS

When you say, "I'll bring my THF Barb to the raid!", do you call it your dps or dpa toon?

 

[Cetus]

This is fairly accurate. If the question is Halforc vs Shadar-kai vs Shifter then of course THF looks like the weakest link. If it’s THF vs SWF vs TWF on a dwarf, it looks a lot more balanced.

Well, my assumption is that we are comparing builds optimized for their respective styles at endgame.

If troll/not-troll (still can’t tell) is invoking some weird THF warforged split for running waterworks, then I am happy to concede whatever point he’s making.

 

[Ned_Ellis]

It looks like the only way forward for people who can compartmentalize unresolvable frustration and move forward, trying to enjoy this game as we have for years, is to play only those builds that, by coincidence or mistake (but certainly not design), perform better after any given update than the nerfs newly imposed.

I'd like my character line up to include a THF Dwarven Barb and Nuker Caster, but the game no longer wants me to play those.

I took a break for a few years, I've taken many 3-6 month breaks. There are a lot of fun games out there that don't come with the baggage of extreme, one-sided compromise. The outpouring of well constructed, professional level QA response to the changes in this thread with so little reasonable reaction from the devs further tests our ability to either once again shake off the stupid and tr (at our expense) to the latest meta shifter, imbued, shadowdancing dart-thrower of the day or just go on a gaming vacation.

There is an alternative : play the thf dwarven barbarian despite what changes.
Of course, you will probably not be able to play at the same level of difficulty, you will likely not invest in loot/crafting/augments/fillies/other micro-improvements that you would if it was a topdog alt...(did I say 'alt'!?? my bad!)
Sure, you will likely lose ground to your friends who do meta-switch and suuuuure, you risk having certain content become less fun or take longer so the gap with your firends increases so maybe you'll have to pug your raids while you wait for your day in the sun again...but go**amn, you can now slog through all those modifications you need to make that dwarven dream god-like again and, say in a few years, once you have all those wonderful +1pointlesskill points from repeating content to get irrelevant bonuses for that exact build you want AND if the goalposts don't move again, you will be able to get your barb-on like it was 2012 (or whenever you orignally thought it was a good idea to build for)! Toon-building is one of the main attractions of this game. Problem solved.

 

[Guntango]

There is an alternative : play the thf dwarven barbarian despite what changes.
Of course, you will probably not be able to play at the same level of difficulty, you will likely not invest in loot/crafting/augments/fillies/other micro-improvements that you would if it was a topdog alt...(did I say 'alt'!?? my bad!)
Sure, you will likely lose ground to your friends who do meta-switch and suuuuure, you risk having certain content become less fun or take longer so the gap with your firends increases so maybe you'll have to pug your raids while you wait for your day in the sun again...but go**amn, you can now slog through all those modifications you need to make that dwarven dream god-like again and, say in a few years, once you have all those wonderful +1pointlesskill points from repeating content to get irrelevant bonuses for that exact build you want AND if the goalposts don't move again, you will be able to get your barb-on like it was 2012 (or whenever you orignally thought it was a good idea to build for)! Toon-building is one of the main attractions of this game. Problem solved.

Throwing my computer off of the roof sounds like more fun.

 

[RobShow]

Death aura, NE, Negative energy scroll, nothing working with skellie pet. Does damage!!!

 

[Curupira]

Ah, this is one of those tiny little bugs that turn out to be several big, scary bugs in a trench coat. Long story short, upon investigating this, it turns out that Rogue's built-in Sneak Attack Dice aren't considered "Sneak Attack Dice" by the game - they're some other thing that is added up somewhere else and aren't being counted by Dark Imbuement or anything else that scales with Sneak Attack Dice.

The good news is, this is completely fixable (assuming my off the cuff solution doesn't explode!), will result in a pretty sizeable buff for Shadowdancer's Epic Strikes, and should be all set for when this actually goes live. Thank you!

Nice, Shadowstrike surely needs help. With the overly aggressive ICD the damage is pitiful and the debuff, although unique, is pretty squalid to make it a good epic strike. Ever thought about increasing the debuff, maybe scaling it with sneak attack dice? Maybe reducing the debuff's duration as a trade off, it lasts for quite a while...

The mantle really needs to make the shadowdancer able to tumble through mobs IMO.

 

[wdhvenrick]

Also the T5 shadowdancer ability in my opinion should atleast stack 2-3 times. I mean even with really high sneak dice builds you can get maybe 200 temp hp. And as someone who has played many temp hp giving classes, blightcaster, warlock, 200 hp at legendary gets blown through in at best 4 hits on elite, at worst just lose them all after 1 hit. In legendary the enemies you kill have thousands of health, the feeding isn't so unholy if you barely get a light snack out of killing them.

 

[Aelonwy]

Shiradi:
I'm going to have to play around with Shiradi to see how it feels but I'm delighted to see so many multi-selectors and actual options per playstyle. I don't know if Feylights will ever be worth using with such a short range and duration. It needs to be at least 6 seconds, and could easily have its ranged doubled to be useful enough to be in the spell rotation. New Countenance of Queens is T4, can it at least be -30% hate to be closer in value to Fatesinger's T3? T1 Good Luck is still an utter waste because it is not a unique bonus and EVERYONE just slots luck with gear or augment. Period. Please either make it a unique bonus or replace with something actually useful such as Piercing the Veil 1/2/3 Spell pen, seriously Enchantment and Illusion spells require spell pen so it makes sense.

The nerf to HE definitely hurts but I'll have to see it in conjunction with all the other ranged changes to figure out how my ranged playstyle needs to change.

Draconic Incarnation:
I do NOT understand why you insist and persist on making Epic strikes less Epic with a Max Caster level 20, especially with us going further into Legendary levels later this year with a level cap raise. Please explain your reasoning for making caster strikes mediocre.

May I propose a compromise? If the issue is that we are doing too much damage with our epic strikes at 20 perhaps the core 3@level 32 of all caster destinies could raise the Max Caster level of epic strikes to 30 to reflect that we are gaining in power as we go into Legendary levels. Potentially, when we hit cap 40 the capstone could raise the Caster level cap again so that the strike is still useful for that cap.

General thoughts... ALL caster mantles need to work with Warlock Eldritch blast or you are severely under supporting an entire class that still to this day does not have a destiny of its own to support it.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Well, my assumption is that we are comparing builds optimized for their respective styles at endgame.

If troll/not-troll (still can’t tell) is invoking some weird THF warforged split for running waterworks, then I am happy to concede whatever point he’s making.

Even at endgame you can't just ignore the inherent value of strikethrough just because there are ways to get an approximate function on a few very specific TWF and SWF builds.

 

[Guntango]

Even at endgame you can't just ignore the inherent value of strikethrough just because there are ways to get an approximate function on a few very specific TWF and SWF builds.

When I see answers like this, I assume your main is a bard.

 

[CBDunk]

I do NOT understand why you insist and persist on making Epic strikes less Epic with a Max Caster level 20, especially with us going further into Legendary levels later this year with a level cap raise. Please explain your reasoning for making caster strikes mediocre.

May I propose a compromise? If the issue is that we are doing too much damage with our epic strikes at 20

Once again, we don't understand what the supposed 'problem' is, so we're left guessing at what changes to suggest.

'We want feedback, but you have to guess on what'

perhaps the core 3@level 32 of all caster destinies could raise the Max Caster level of epic strikes to 30 to reflect that we are gaining in power as we go into Legendary levels. Potentially, when we hit cap 40 the capstone could raise the Caster level cap again so that the strike is still useful for that cap.

I like it... though it creates a weird situation where bonus CLs are capped at min(Bonus CLs, 20 - Caster Level) for character levels 1 to 31, then min(Bonus CLs, 30 - Caster Level) for levels 32 to 39, and finally change again at level 40 depending on what the base MCL at that point was.

 

[Cashery]

Exalted Angel

• New Multiselector with Angelic Form: Wrathful Form: "Casting a Fire, Light, Alignment, or Positive Spell causes you to be surrounded by fire and light for 5 seconds, damaging all enemies nearby every 2.5 seconds for 1d6 Fire and 1d6 Light damage per caster level. This damage will not strike dazed targets unless they are also stunned. Subsequent spellcasts extend the duration by an additional 5 seconds, up to a maximum of 15. This ability ends when you leave combat. Your Positive Healing spells heal 1d6 extra Positive Healing per caster level. This has a cooldown of 5 seconds before it can trigger again."
• Angelic Form is now: "Your offensive Fire spells deal 1d6+6 bonus Fire damage per caster level, and your offensive Light spells now deal 1d6+6 bonus Light damage per caster level. Your Positive Healing spells heal 1d6 extra Positive Healing per caster level. These damage effects each have a unique cooldown of 5 seconds." (this is pretty much what was here before, but with slightly different heal scaling and no % chance)

​

I do not like this at all... The passive Healing still needs to be included.. Just make it a T5 effect...

Was just testing it on my 18 Paladin, 2 Cleric Sun Elf that is spec'd for turning. Sacrificed DPS to do this, I enjoyed the passive healing as it allowed me to help the healers while still being able to DPS some and stand in there with the true melee builds. Casting a spell just to add DPS on a melee to get the aura going is not fun.

I will still have to go T5 in Exalted for Blessed Water/. Though if it was moved down to T3 then maybe I would just go Divine Crusader and put down consecrate for the mele's.

 

[rabidfox]

I do NOT understand why you insist and persist on making Epic strikes less Epic with a Max Caster level 20, especially with us going further into Legendary levels later this year with a level cap raise. Please explain your reasoning for making caster strikes mediocre.

May I propose a compromise? If the issue is that we are doing too much damage with our epic strikes at 20 perhaps the core 3@level 32 of all caster destinies could raise the Max Caster level of epic strikes to 30 to reflect that we are gaining in power as we go into Legendary levels. Potentially, when we hit cap 40 the capstone could raise the Caster level cap again so that the strike is still useful for that cap.

Technically, it's MCL21 at 22, MCL22 at 24, etc. because of epic and legendary knowledge feats giving +1 CL/+1 MCL every 2 epic levels. I find it awkward that our power curve for stuff goes from 1dX per level in heroics to 1dX per 2 levels in epics.

The power curve difference in epics being half the progression rate that we see in heroics just seems weird to me. (*obviously some stuff has lower than MCL20 defaults and other stuff gets boosted by small +MCL values in heroic trees or via master of feats).