Lamannia Update 66 Preview 2 - Epic Destiny Refresh

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Viking707

Active member
I'll be crystal clear about it. I'm complaining about the EA passive healing removal. Not a nerf, ............... a removal. That's the difference. Also, I'm not a great player but I do love the game as much as anyone else. To say I'm upset about this is a massive understatement.

I just don't understand why the Devs are so willing to drive off the casual players.
 

SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 614 ddo build files
She meant we had a constant group I joined recently ( in terms of playing all other members since beta - for me its just 1.5-2 years - I stopped playing after menace came out and started, well, may 2022 ) and we were doing all the content from lvl 1 to lvl 32.
I feel sorry for this outcome never knew the game as good as them. my next life if the group is still up will be bard - buff - healer

others mostly had triple or near completionists and for me its just 4 Heroic lives on one toon and 3 on another with twice as many epic.....
but what I can see from ALL the raids I was on both toons - AOE healers were EVERYTIME. I don't know if there will be so many raids after the U66 with such nerfs come out or at least HOW will people keep up randomly gathered groups at hard and higher with first lifers.....
and how many raids there will be who knows?
There's a ton of AoE heals that aren't Holy Presence. Most AoE raid healing in raids I'm comes from that too, at least in my experience (outside of very casual raids). Holy Presence has a 6s cycle, and you often can't wait up to 5s for the next tic after you take damage. For certain much of raid healing is AoE heals, but most of that is someone pushing a button. If your raid group can survive 6s between heals, you can push one button every 6s and ~nothing will change. It is for sure nice and it helps a lot if you're low on healers (like if a Sorc is running it), but it's not required.

My raid bard (which is a first-life like many bard alts) has been running US for over a year now; EA mantle just isn't fast enough to save someone most of the time, but staying alive lets me throw more heals (and I can off-tank for a few seconds during the epic moment). Sure, not everyone's in the same situation; but I get more value out of CLWM than the mantle, since I can choose to use it right after/as our party is taking damage (let alone bigger heals which are always better than the mantle).

The spot for Holy Presence that I've seen it really shine is for questing and soloing; it's very good for those, and in both cases you probably aren't running a difficulty where you'll commonly die in two hits (or really anything less than 6s) so you can happily wait for the next healing tic. But with a static group and a dedicated healer, you have someone already dedicated to throwing heals lol. They'll just have to push buttons (occasionally) instead of just walking next to you while reading a book.

-----

Why quit DDO over this? Like it'll change some playstyles and make building a lot different for specific goals, like I don't know how I'll solo raids on random toons like a Barb (and I've done a good bunch at this point) - but that's ok, DDO's still a great game. If you've been playing since beta you clearly agree, and this seems like a short hill to die on.
 

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
Would also like some developer discussion regarding:

1. Nerfing adrenaline cooldown from a THF perspective. Mainly interested in rationale for doing so as well as compensatory solutions for THF.
2. Usefulness of Grandmaster core 4 for any build that has less than 3 monk levels.

Honestly Cetus, I think that whole debacle with Fury was just to nerf Adren.

Token buffing of Quick Cutter (which is still utterly useless and of absolutely no value as I tested on Lam) is just a smokescreen to take down the real beast which was Adren.

Anyway it is what it is.
 

Cetus

Well-known member
Honestly Cetus, I think that whole debacle with Fury was just to nerf Adren.

Token buffing of Quick Cutter (which is still utterly useless and of absolutely no value as I tested on Lam) is just a smokescreen to take down the real beast which was Adren.

Anyway it is what it is.
I just returned to the game after a lengthy hiatus (including generous spending) because I found the game fun and interesting again.

What a quick reminder of why I originally quit. Lag is healthy and the devs continue to devalue THF, without any discussion on the topic.
 

OverTheSeas

New member
There's a ton of AoE heals that aren't Holy Presence. Most AoE raid healing in raids I'm comes from that too, at least in my experience (outside of very casual raids). Holy Presence has a 6s cycle, and you often can't wait up to 5s for the next tic after you take damage. For certain much of raid healing is AoE heals, but most of that is someone pushing a button. If your raid group can survive 6s between heals, you can push one button every 6s and ~nothing will change. It is for sure nice and it helps a lot if you're low on healers (like if a Sorc is running it), but it's not required.

My raid bard (which is a first-life like many bard alts) has been running US for over a year now; EA mantle just isn't fast enough to save someone most of the time, but staying alive lets me throw more heals (and I can off-tank for a few seconds during the epic moment). Sure, not everyone's in the same situation; but I get more value out of CLWM than the mantle, since I can choose to use it right after/as our party is taking damage (let alone bigger heals which are always better than the mantle).

The spot for Holy Presence that I've seen it really shine is for questing and soloing; it's very good for those, and in both cases you probably aren't running a difficulty where you'll commonly die in two hits (or really anything less than 6s) so you can happily wait for the next healing tic. But with a static group and a dedicated healer, you have someone already dedicated to throwing heals lol. They'll just have to push buttons (occasionally) instead of just walking next to you while reading a book.

-----

Why quit DDO over this? Like it'll change some playstyles and make building a lot different for specific goals, like I don't know how I'll solo raids on random toons like a Barb (and I've done a good bunch at this point) - but that's ok, DDO's still a great game. If you've been playing since beta you clearly agree, and this seems like a short hill to die on.
i will try to be a healer and will probably post the outcome - my answer was just to say we have a constant group and that was the ability that saved our whole party for the last 2 years. and in raids mostly there were like 1-2 aura doing guys, seldomly doing 1-2 mass cure {insert level of wounds} wounds. sometimes one person heal sometimes mass ..
i believe there are other ways to keep party on the legs, i just was telling my feelings about it and due to the lack of knowledge being myself a healer i can not tell them. will be able after U66 comes out and i etr-tr into one.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
I just returned to the game after a lengthy hiatus (including generous spending) because I found the game fun and interesting again.

What a quick reminder of why I originally quit. Lag is healthy and the devs continue to devalue THF, without any discussion on the topic.
I think the devs might have their feet dug in for certain changes already. If you've got to suggestions for other epic strikes/tree buffs/work that would help THF then I suspected the devs would love to hear those. I also wonder if the underlying tech would support 2 different cooldowns based off what type weapon style is equipped when using adren, so THF would be 8s and it would be longer for other attack styles instead of it being a one-sized glove fits all button.
 

seph1roth5

Well-known member
I think devs are vastly overestimating IPS as well. Seen several posts where they say that it's aoe on every attack. Which, while TECHNICALLY true, in practice, it takes way waaaaay more time to hit multiple targets on purpose.

It's nice for the handful of times you need to hit 2 stationary things, or 2 giganto raid bosses (all cannith stuff), but other than that it's such a huge penalty to damage for maybe sometimes hitting a second guy.

A part of it is how ranged targeting works, but even if they fixed that, and dry firing, it's just a huge hit. 20% loss of ranged power on top of not building/keeping archer's focus. I like the new aoe ranged ideas, but IPS needs some love too. Ditch the 20% damage penalty.
 

Grumpy

Well-known member
If people are going to say folks won't survive the nerfs, then it's better to talk about what 1st lifers and HC alts can do (than to use my r10 push main as an example). I'd rather let people know that it can be done; it might be harder to do but it's certainly do-able. The build is even posted in the build forums if they need help adjusting to EA nerfs. I can't undo the upcoming nerfs, I can offer help and advice to move forward as u66 hits.
With all do respect to you and your guild, for pushing stuff as you do, there are a lot of players who are not ready for reaper, let alone R10 anything. DDO is part past lives, and part skill as a player, and part memorization of the game, and all of its mechanics, and part running with good players. Years ago, I played a lot of DDO and was just an average player, and then I started playing with people who are better than me, and learning from then, and now I suck less. Simply saying "It might be harder to do but its certainly do-able" probably isn't true for most players. The same thing goes towards players who solo anything past R5, one player finding a "legit" way to solo an R10 quest is an awesome thing, nerfing the ability for that player to do so, also effects players who can't solo R1 without hires.
 

Cetus

Well-known member
I think the devs might have their feet dug in for certain changes already. If you've got to suggestions for other epic strikes/tree buffs/work that would help THF then I suspected the devs would love to hear those. I also wonder if the underlying tech would support 2 different cooldowns based off what type weapon style is equipped when using adren, so THF would be 8s and it would be longer for other attack styles instead of it being a one-sized glove fits all button.
I don't know what their tech limitations are. This is why conversation is essential.

I have a vast reserve of suggestions to improve THF; but without official acknowledgment of the problem in the first place, this is all just meaningless text on a forum.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
With all do respect to you and your guild, for pushing stuff as you do, there are a lot of players who are not ready for reaper, let alone R10 anything. DDO is part past lives, and part skill as a player, and part memorization of the game, and all of its mechanics, and part running with good players. Years ago, I played a lot of DDO and was just an average player, and then I started playing with people who are better than me, and learning from then, and now I suck less. Simply saying "It might be harder to do but its certainly do-able" probably isn't true for most players. The same thing goes towards players who solo anything past R5, one player finding a "legit" way to solo an R10 quest is an awesome thing, nerfing the ability for that player to do so, also effects players who can't solo R1 without hires.
I don't expect a casual player to suddenly do well in r1 raids or even elite raids. My point was relevant to the tools a healer has and can do without using EAs aura; hence it is "do-able"; "do-able" will be relative to the difficulties they can handle, but the tools to heal are there. As another poster said, the time between ticks on EA's aura is a long time in a raid and many people will die if they're not getting actively healed in that time period; mass cures spells are a bread and butter thing to spam when the damage is coming in hot. I healed long before EA ever got it's aura and I'll keep healing after this change too. I can't speak to the skills, reflexes, or other aspects of other healers only to what abilities a healer could potentially use (there's plenty of folks who are better than me and make me feel like a subpar healer when I'm around them).
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
I have a vast reserve of suggestions to improve THF; but without official acknowledgment of the problem in the first place, this is all just meaningless text on a forum.
I don't think we're likely to see anything officially detailed for all the various reasonings (we could, but I doubt it). You should post your wall of THF suggestions for things that apply to epic destinies while devs are actively working on them and see what sticks; because once u66 is out, it could be a long time until EDs get another pass.
 

Cetus

Well-known member
I don't think we're likely to see anything officially detailed for all the various reasonings (we could, but I doubt it). You should post your wall of THF suggestions for things that apply to epic destinies while devs are actively working on them and see what sticks; because once u66 is out, it could be a long time until EDs get another pass.
Given extensive prior precedent, nothing detailed here will stick. They're past their 2nd preview at this point. If I feel like making a post at some point, I probably will. But right now, I'm just turned off by this update.
 

Soulcial

Weekend Warrior
What's there to experiment with? THF just received a direct nerf by waiting an additional second for it's only big hit lol
the funny thing is adrenaline is just the best for every melee dps. there is no viable option for twf/thf (unless you're centered or have a favored weapon in which case you still lose major boss dps.)
 

Soulcial

Weekend Warrior
Here is my summation of the long overdue ED pass.
1) Made Magus a lot better
2) Made rotations for FOTW feel worse
3) Made Dragonbreath worse than Tsunami, didn't accommodate the rest of the tree at all
4) Made Hunt's End worse, while attempting to pigeon hole players into using Pin
4a) Ranged DPS loses a ton of boss DPS in favor of maybe more mob killing?
5) Made Carrion Swarm worse than all the non-epic DOTS
6) Shadowdancer still not a viable primary rogue tree??
7) Slight improvement to Fatesinger, I guess?
8) Other things
9) Piss off the 12 people who actually use EA as a primary tree

Sound about right?
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I don't think we're likely to see anything officially detailed for all the various reasonings (we could, but I doubt it). You should post your wall of THF suggestions for things that apply to epic destinies while devs are actively working on them and see what sticks; because once u66 is out, it could be a long time until EDs get another pass.
Let's face it, we've given mountains of feedback and suggestions and the devs have only taken a few small tangential details. We'll even see if when it comes live the EA mantle works with warlock.

Expecting our feedback to be reciprocated can lead to disappointment. In the case of cetus, I would keep those illusions at a low level.

Yea, but my argument is that it hurts THF worse than the other styles because of the really slow attack speed.
There are always styles that are more affected than others. In the case of casters, the short straw always goes to the non-bypass casters, even if the nerfs are with the intention of lowering the A+ casters. In the melees now it's THF's turn. That's DDO.
 

Bowserkoopa

King of the Koopa's
I'm just glad i learned that intimidate is apparently broken from the 100+ pages of responses concerning the epic destiny refresh
 
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