Lamannia Update 66 Preview 2 - Epic Destiny Refresh

[Soulcial]

Let's face it, we've given mountains of feedback and suggestions and the devs have only taken a few small tangential details. We'll even see if when it comes live the EA mantle works with warlock.

Expecting our feedback to be reciprocated can lead to disappointment. In the case of cetus, I would keep those illusions at a low level.


There are always styles that are more affected than others. In the case of casters, the short straw always goes to the non-bypass casters, even if the nerfs are with the intention of lowering the A+ casters. In the melees now it's THF's turn. That's DDO.

The number one most commonly asked for thing in this thread: "Please bring other epic strikes up to par instead of nerfing the good ones."
What happened? Zero epic strikes brought up to par, the 3 best ones nerfed.

 

[Mickeymouse]

I for one can't stand fvs heal walls they are blinding maybe tone those down and more people would use them

Did they remove these? if so, great... they really need to start working on tuning down some of the effects that are currently in game.. GMOF epic strike is another culprit, acid clouds are yucky too just to mention some.

 

[Lazuli]

The number one most commonly asked for thing in this thread: "Please bring other epic strikes up to par instead of nerfing the good ones."
What happened? Zero epic strikes brought up to par, the 3 best ones nerfed.

There have been many other things, not only that; that has been a lost battle from the beginning, the same as the Shiradi was in his day, today functionally dead for casters. They have not improved what does not work in the EDs (not even the old mass frog bug...), they have not said anything that the EA mantle does not work with warlock, etc.

I no longer expect any type of balance, that's not what the update seems to be about. If they improve the draconic wings given that they are a tier 5, I imagine that will be all I can hope for, and my hopes are not exactly high even in that detail.

 

[Coffey]

I'll be crystal clear about it. I'm complaining about the EA passive healing removal. Not a nerf, ............... a removal. That's the difference. Also, I'm not a great player but I do love the game as much as anyone else. To say I'm upset about this is a massive understatement.

I just don't understand why the Devs are so willing to drive off the casual players.

This is effecting all players. Some players accept bad changes easier than others. They have become used to it.

It honestly seems like an ongoing form of player population control.

 

[Oliphant]

Wondering what the motives are:

• Protecting time-value of Otto Boxe$?
• Jeweler kit sales?
• Planning to sell massive power creep all over again this year?
• Vengeance for wrong-think play?
• No Dev time invested in actually playing DDO?
• Failure to grasp the really weird stuff happening is probably not the WAI stuff they nerfing?

 

[Andu Indorin]

In short: the issue with the EA healing aura is not the aura, but the Positive Spell Power fueling it ...

When the proposed changes were introduced, Tonquin makes no mention for a rationale for reducing a central healing component of the Exalted Angel tree, simply that it is being substituted with a "new mechanical sub-theme within this tree that boosts your Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating".

It has been suggested that the heal aura of the current Holy Presence is overpowered, and this has been linked to the role of healers in Raid Groups. To an extent, I would agree with this assessment. In Raid Groups, a well spec'ed healer with Holy Presence can go a long way in mitigating the challenge posed by raids. By raids form a smaller percentage of the player experience in DDO.

Unaddressed, however, is the cause for this imbalance in the game. The cause is not the heal aura, it is the spell power that feeds it. For the sake of consistency as well as coding, positive spell power has kept pace with the all the other spell powers in the game. The problem is that while "offensive" spell power has theoretically kept pace with the scaling of monsters and mobs in increasingly more difficult content and challenge levels, the "defensive" or healing spell power has exceeded the rate at which players might need healing.

The initial change proposed a few weeks ago -- "Casting a Fire, Light, or Positive spell causes a flaming blade barrier ring to erupt around you." -- read like a recipe for disaster by introducing extra confusion in battle as well as possible increases in graphic-inducing lag. And I'd like to thank those players who actually tested it on Lammania and who found the proc rates unimpressive.

The current change is next to useless. Temporary bumps to AC, PRR, and MRR are a neglible contributions to player abilities, especially when well over half DDOs post-level 20 content is Legendary rather than Epic. And the increased destiny point expenditures and prerequisites to even obtain the "new" Angelic Soul -- six destiny points instead of three -- will make this destiny feat a non-starter for almost all DDO players. (Thanks to Sporking for pointing this out!)

If the aura is overpowered, wouldn't it have been better to simply "nerf" the aura itself rather than replacing something with a veritable nothing? Could we not reduce its effect from 1d4+1 hit points per caster level (3.5 avg) to 1d2+1 hit points per caster level (2.5 avg). And perhaps make it a Tier IV destiny rather than Tier III? This would make the "+10 Magical Resistance Rating and 15% damage absorption to all damage types other than Piercing, Slashing, Bludgeoning, Negative, Positive, Repair, and Bane/Untyped" a Tier III Epic Destiny, which works well within the game's metaphysics. After all, clerics are closer to divinity than the rest of us scrubs. (And why the needless swap of Holy Presence and Angelic Soul descripters, making this discussion just that more confusing?)

 

[Lazuli]

Wondering what the motives are:

• Protecting time-value of Otto Boxe$?
• Jeweler kit sales?
• Planning to sell massive power creep all over again this year?
• Vengeance for wrong-think play?
• No Dev time invested in actually playing DDO?
• Failure to grasp the really weird stuff happening is probably not the WAI stuff they nerfing?

My impression? It's no coincidence that this is just before the rise of the legendary cap and a full xpack. They don't want to leave the current quests weaker than now, so they are making room to resell us the lost power.

 

[Aelonwy]

Let's face it, we've given mountains of feedback and suggestions and the devs have only taken a few small tangential details. *snip*

Expecting our feedback to be reciprocated can lead to disappointment. In the case of cetus, I would keep those illusions at a low level.

I no longer expect any type of balance, that's not what the update seems to be about.

This^. Between Preview 1 & 2 there has been over 120 pages of feedback. It doesn't seem to be making one iota of difference in the devs design direction leading me to believe before we ever saw the first changes there was some behind the scenes benchmark for damage/healing whatever and it doesn't matter to them at all what we were enjoying or why. Despite this being a game they can simply take our toys whenever they want. Or worse yet leave our toys crippled and far from the Epic they are labeled to be. So we will take our mediocre abilities and suck it up and purchase whatever they dish out next just to arrive back at the power level we were before this update. or not.

 

[Lazuli]

In short: the issue with the EA healing aura is not the aura, but the Positive Spell Power fueling it ...

When the proposed changes were introduced, Tonquin makes no mention for a rationale for reducing a central healing component of the Exalted Angel tree, simply that it is being substituted with a "new mechanical sub-theme within this tree that boosts your Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating".

It has been suggested that the heal aura of the current Holy Presence is overpowered, and this has been linked to the role of healers in Raid Groups. To an extent, I would agree with this assessment. In Raid Groups, a well spec'ed healer with Holy Presence can go a long way in mitigating the challenge posed by raids. By raids form a smaller percentage of the player experience in DDO.

Unaddressed, however, is the cause for this imbalance in the game. The cause is not the heal aura, it is the spell power that feeds it. For the sake of consistency as well as coding, positive spell power has kept pace with the all the other spell powers in the game. The problem is that while "offensive" spell power has theoretically kept pace with the scaling of monsters and mobs in increasingly more difficult content and challenge levels, the "defensive" or healing spell power has exceeded the rate at which players might need healing.

The initial change proposed a few weeks ago -- "Casting a Fire, Light, or Positive spell causes a flaming blade barrier ring to erupt around you." -- read like a recipe for disaster by introducing extra confusion in battle as well as possible increases in graphic-inducing lag. And I'd like to thank those players who actually tested it on Lammania and who found the proc rates unimpressive.

The current change is next to useless. Temporary bumps to AC, PRR, and MRR are a neglible contributions to player abilities, especially when well over half DDOs post-level 20 content is Legendary rather than Epic. And the increased destiny point expenditures and prerequisites to even obtain the "new" Angelic Soul -- six destiny points instead of three -- will make this destiny feat a non-starter for almost all DDO players. (Thanks to Sporking for pointing this out!)

If the aura is overpowered, wouldn't it have been better to simply "nerf" the aura itself rather than replacing something with a veritable nothing? Could we not reduce its effect from 1d4+1 hit points per caster level (3.5 avg) to 1d2+1 hit points per caster level (2.5 avg). And perhaps make it a Tier IV destiny rather than Tier III? This would make the "+10 Magical Resistance Rating and 15% damage absorption to all damage types other than Piercing, Slashing, Bludgeoning, Negative, Positive, Repair, and Bane/Untyped" a Tier III Epic Destiny, which works well within the game's metaphysics. After all, clerics are closer to divinity than the rest of us scrubs. (And why the needless swap of Holy Presence and Angelic Soul descripters, making this discussion just that more confusing?)

Do you really think the aura will be useful if you nerf it that much? Be realistic, the aura is useful now because it heals well, but it really goes down a lot as you raise skulls. It's one of the reasons why many healers use the sentinel mantle instead of the EA in high reaper.

If you are going to get a mediocre healing, the EA's aura is not worth it, because you are giving a lot of dps to get it. Use sentinel or divine crusade.

 

[JaynChar2019]

Wondering what the motives are:

• Protecting time-value of Otto Boxe$?
• Jeweler kit sales?
• Planning to sell massive power creep all over again this year?
• Vengeance for wrong-think play?
• No Dev time invested in actually playing DDO?
• Failure to grasp the really weird stuff happening is probably not the WAI stuff they nerfing?

Cake sales dropped because of EA and DB so they needed to find a way to get them back up. SSG's new motto is "let them eat cake, figgy is the most expensive"

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Here is some very simplified calculations:

...

Combine the attacks as you like, but the point is that you get multiplier on top of other multipliers and the damage starts ballooning. From my limited calculations the old Hunt's End combined with Sniper Shot does about 60% more damage than the new Hunt's End.

Your math looks correct, but IMO its more helpful to see how it affects a build in practice...
So here's an expanded calculation for a rough bow build (obviously actual numbers in game vary a lot depending on gear/build/focus stacks/boosts/etc..)

200 Base damage, 100% doubleshot, 400 ranged power = 2000

normal attack: 17-18*4, 19-20*6 = 1.75x
sniper shot: 15-18*6, 19-20*8 = 2.65x
pluck: 13-18*4, 19-20*6 = 2.35x

Calculating for dps added per ability (ie without the normal attack included):
Normal attack: 2000*1.75 = 3500

Old hunts end: (2000*4.2*3.25)-3500 = 23800 / 8 seconds = 2975 dps
Old hunts end+sniper shot: (2000*6.2*3.25*1.2)-3500 = 44860/ 8 seconds = 5607 dps

New hunts end: (2000*4.2*3.5)-3500 = 25900 / 9 seconds = 2878 dps
Sniper shot: (2000*2.65*1.2)-3500 = 2860 / 6 seconds = 477 dps
Pluck: (2000*2.35*1.3)+(11*32*9)-3500 = 5778/ 5 seconds = 1156 dps

New rotation total: 4511 dps (20% nerf compared to old hunts end)

So overall its a slightly larger nerf than adrenaline got (11%), but the above build would also be doing an additional ~10k dps with base attacks+onhit+manyshot, etc... so we're actually looking at ~14511 dps vs ~15607 dps (7% total dps nerf).

-Also to note, crusade or shadowstrike will be even better epic strikes than pluck when the buff/debuff/SA dice is relevant.
-Also, also to note, Missing the old hunts end+sniper shot combo due to lag results in much lower dps than the new lag-proof combo, so this is a huge usability benefit to consider.

I actually like the change. Its a small single target dps nerf all things considered, but opens up many more rotation and build options.

 

[Edrein]

Here is my summation of the long overdue ED pass.
1) Made Magus a lot better
2) Made rotations for FOTW feel worse
3) Made Dragonbreath worse than Tsunami, didn't accommodate the rest of the tree at all
4) Made Hunt's End worse, while attempting to pigeon hole players into using Pin
4a) Ranged DPS loses a ton of boss DPS in favor of maybe more mob killing?
5) Made Carrion Swarm worse than all the non-epic DOTS
6) Shadowdancer still not a viable primary rogue tree??
7) Slight improvement to Fatesinger, I guess?
8) Other things
9) Piss off the 12 people who actually use EA as a primary tree

Sound about right?

You forgot number 10.

Further gimping warlocks in epics by removing another half-functional mantle choice.

 

[Soulcial]

Your math looks correct, but IMO its more helpful to see how it affects a build in practice...
So here's an expanded calculation for a rough bow build (obviously actual numbers in game vary a lot depending on gear/build/focus stacks/boosts/etc..)

200 Base damage, 100% doubleshot, 400 ranged power = 2000

normal attack: 17-18*4, 19-20*6 = 1.75x
sniper shot: 15-18*6, 19-20*8 = 2.65x
pluck: 13-18*4, 19-20*6 = 2.35x

Calculating for dps added per ability (ie without the normal attack included):
Normal attack: 2000*1.75 = 3500

Old hunts end: (2000*4.2*3.25)-3500 = 23800 / 8 seconds = 2975 dps
Old hunts end+sniper shot: (2000*6.2*3.25*1.2)-3500 = 44860/ 8 seconds = 5607 dps

New hunts end: (2000*4.2*3.5)-3500 = 25900 / 9 seconds = 2878 dps
Sniper shot: (2000*2.65*1.2)-3500 = 2860 / 6 seconds = 477 dps
Pluck: (2000*2.35*1.3)+(11*32*9)-3500 = 5778/ 5 seconds = 1156 dps

New rotation total: 4511 dps (20% nerf compared to old hunts end)

So overall its a slightly larger nerf than adrenaline got (11%), but the above build would also be doing an additional ~10k dps with base attacks+onhit+manyshot, etc... so we're actually looking at ~14511 dps vs ~15607 dps (7% total dps nerf).

-Also to note, crusade or shadowstrike will be even better epic strikes than pluck when the buff/debuff/SA dice is relevant.
-Also, also to note, Missing the old hunts end+sniper shot combo due to lag results in much lower dps than the new lag-proof combo, so this is a huge usability benefit to consider.

I actually like the change. Its a small single target dps nerf all things considered, but opens up many more rotation and build options.

I don't totally hate it.. was still hitting 100k on my 4th life horizon walker build against the boss kobold.

 

[Reifee - Orien]

Its fairly funny.

You have a group of Dev's using Ton to shield them from the players.

We are passionate because we enjoy the game and we spend a fair amount of time and money here. This might shock you. Some of us run entities that purchase companies like SSG all the time. I think they are only around 22-25m revenue?

As many of us have learned and SSG has not, putting off your customer always has negative ramifications. We as a group (the players) don't need any further people quitting over the upheaval about the proposed changes.

Transparency and communication are key for anything to be successful.
I understand the person that responds to the questions more then likely has their hands tied, I feel for their postion its not fun.

However, you must continue to push and continue voting with your feet.

Canceling subscriptions, and not replenishing DDO points is a way to vote on how you feel about things. I've always voted with my feet and will continue to do so. DDO isn't the only entertainment in town, there are other places that can provide entertainment.

 

[Soulcial]

You forgot number 10.

Further gimping warlocks in epics by removing another half-functional mantle choice.

ah yes,
10) nerfing things that impact lesser dps casters far more than the high dps/immunity stripping casters that will only feel a nerf to their spell point conservation at the end of the day.

 

[Tilomere]

2. Usefulness of Grandmaster core 4 for any build that has less than 3 monk levels.

It's the same as the usefulness for any build that has more than 3 monk levels. No practical value, as heroic ability rotations shouldn't be the focus of any epic build other than for flavor.

 

[Edrein]

Do you really think the aura will be useful if you nerf it that much? Be realistic, the aura is useful now because it heals well, but it really goes down a lot as you raise skulls. It's one of the reasons why many healers use the sentinel mantle instead of the EA in high reaper.

If you are going to get a mediocre healing, the EA's aura is not worth it, because you are giving a lot of dps to get it. Use sentinel or divine crusade.

Further adding to this point is the fact that we have a lesser healing effect in the Fury Mantle and no one uses it for self healing lol. The aura portion of EA's mantle was great for self sustain, nerfing that value on the self-portion would kill its actual value. Nerfing the AoE aspect could perhaps help whatever goal the devs have but I doubt it.

 

[Tilomere]

I think devs are vastly overestimating IPS as well.

I don't think they are looking at the DPS, which is just a % they can tune, as much as the increased system requirements of having a character generate ranged particles with aoe hitboxes continuously and independently moving and interacting with multiple objects before coming to rest.

 

[Soulcial]

Its fairly funny.

You have a group of Dev's using Ton to shield them from the players.

We are passionate because we enjoy the game and we spend a fair amount of time and money here. This might shock you. Some of us run entities that purchase companies like SSG all the time. I think they are only around 22-25m revenue?

As many of us have learned and SSG has not, putting off your customer always has negative ramifications. We as a group (the players) don't need any further people quitting over the upheaval about the proposed changes.

Transparency and communication are key for anything to be successful.
I understand the person that responds to the questions more then likely has their hands tied, I feel for their postion its not fun.

However, you must continue to push and continue voting with your feet.

Canceling subscriptions, and not replenishing DDO points is a way to vote on how you feel about things. I've always voted with my feet and will continue to do so. DDO isn't the only entertainment in town, there are other places that can provide entertainment.

The problem with this logic is we're a captive audience because most of those of us who are left obviously prefer character customization over all of DDO's glaring weaknesses. It's why I came back after playing FF14 to level cap. I'd rather play the same overplayed quests 100 times on different builds, or my few favorite builds on newer toons or whatever, than play a polished game with fluid gameplay that has a really generic leveling system/gearing system. DDO's lone bright spots really are character customization (via trees, enhancements, class selections) and itemization. And it's so leaps and bounds ahead of every other game in those regards that a lot of us are still here even with dwindling populations and poor customer interaction.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Here is my summation of the long overdue ED pass.
1) Made Magus a lot better
2) Made rotations for FOTW feel worse
3) Made Dragonbreath worse than Tsunami, didn't accommodate the rest of the tree at all
4) Made Hunt's End worse, while attempting to pigeon hole players into using Pin
4a) Ranged DPS loses a ton of boss DPS in favor of maybe more mob killing?
5) Made Carrion Swarm worse than all the non-epic DOTS
6) Shadowdancer still not a viable primary rogue tree??
7) Slight improvement to Fatesinger, I guess?
8) Other things
9) Piss off the 12 people who actually use EA as a primary tree

Sound about right?

Here's a few things you missed:

1) Chain Cure became actually useful, finally
2) Fatesinger buffs are pretty big (1d6+1 > 1d6+3, doubled = 189% buff to the caster epic strike, +2 crit range for the melee/ranged)
3) Machro strike buffed
4) Runearms for non-int Machro builds
5) EA epic moment became awesome
6) Turn Undead buffs for endgame
7) HP buffs to a bunch of ED's
8) Shadowdancer got buffed a bunch (but still not great lol)
9) Fury got another no-save knockdown
10) Ranged toons got a ton of AoE, at the cost of some single-target (I have no clue how accurate, but Monkey_Archer estimated -7% DPS above)
11) US gets to use both single-target and AoE shield throw
12) Draconic Mantle stacks w/Magma now
13) GMoF moderate buffs (Drifting Lotus +18% damage, Orchid Blossom +59% damage)
14) EA has up to -10 PRR/MRR debuff now, which is like +3-6% party DPS or something depending on Shadows stacks.

The number one most commonly asked for thing in this thread: "Please bring other epic strikes up to par instead of nerfing the good ones."
What happened? Zero epic strikes brought up to par, the 3 best ones nerfed.

Magus strike brought well up to par (maybe past par?), and maybe Fey Lights got buffed considering it was a CC ability and now I guess it does damage? Drifting Lotus was already pretty good for AoE damage, and it got +18% more damage on top. It's IMO the best melee epic strike for questing, although fairly limiting in usage lol.

-----

Edit: they're also looking at buffing ranged single-target damage to make up for the loss from Hunt's End. So Ranged is maybe sorta just getting buffed AoE at ~minimal cost? Will be a lot of math, spreadsheets, and building to figure out the end result.