Lamannia Update 66 Preview 2 - Epic Destiny Refresh

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
For levelling yeah it won’t be terrible. There are hardly any builds that don’t work in epics on elite/r1. At lvl cap, raids and higher reaper it will be entirely useless.
That's what I'm saying abt DBF—it's more damage than DBF, DBF is used on a very high AoE class in r10s.
 

Raedier

Well-known member
That's what I'm saying abt DBF—it's more damage than DBF, DBF is used on a very high AoE class in r10s.
An instantly casting spell at range with 2s cool-down…… in the time it takes to cast DB u can cast DBF and meteor swarm.
Or cone of cold + ottiluke.
DB needs like a second to finish firing before u can cast anything new, that’s why simply doing number crunching isn’t enough.
In practice all goes very differently.
 

DarthBUNBUN

Active member
Please tell me more about these Epic Abilities that are just as good as spells I get by level 14.
I'm getting tired of this argument. There are ALOT of heroic abilities that are much stronger than stuff you get from epic destiny trees. Immunity strip, haste boost, level 8/9 spells, etc. If you take DB out of the equation there were never really any ED SLA's that were even close to as strong as level 9 spells after the spell pass. If anything your just driving home the point that DB was far stronger than other caster epic strikes.
If your going to compare ED abilities to anything it should be heroic enhancement trees, and the SLA's within those trees. Epic destinies can be reset and shuffled around at a whim, that's a big difference from level 9 spells which come from 17+ class caster levels.
Comparing class features to an enhancement tree, even if it's a epic enhancement tree, doesn't make any sense.

I will say that epic spell feats are criminally underpowered. The spell pass, and it's design implementation left a lot of stuff behind. There isn't any good reason for things like Hellball or arcane pulse to be as terrible as they are. With the way heroic spells scale, master of feats are worthless. Epic feats represent a more integral part of character building. Why do all the active choices just seem bad?
 

lppmor

Well-known member
Also, neither of those are 100% damage nerfs, lol. 1.3 multiplier to 1.15 multiplier is a 12% nerf or so, not a 100% nerf.

LOL
That's exactly what I said a few days ago regarding the short time for preview.

The devs don't give people enough time to test, than we have to hear about these wannabe theorycrafters that know nothing about math to starting shouting "oh my god, nerf" without a clue. (I actually know that even with a longer preview, we would still have people posting yhis kind of ********)

And poor Sev/Tonquin has to read all this crap. LOL
 

Vua

Well-known member
I'm getting tired of this argument. There are ALOT of heroic abilities that are much stronger than stuff you get from epic destiny trees. Immunity strip, haste boost, level 8/9 spells, etc. If you take DB out of the equation there were never really any ED SLA's that were even close to as strong as level 9 spells after the spell pass. If anything your just driving home the point that DB was far stronger than other caster epic strikes.
If your going to compare ED abilities to anything it should be heroic enhancement trees, and the SLA's within those trees. Epic destinies can be reset and shuffled around at a whim, that's a big difference from level 9 spells which come from 17+ class caster levels.
Comparing class features to an enhancement tree, even if it's a epic enhancement tree, doesn't make any sense.

I will say that epic spell feats are criminally underpowered. The spell pass, and it's design implementation left a lot of stuff behind. There isn't any good reason for things like Hellball or arcane pulse to be as terrible as they are. With the way heroic spells scale, master of feats are worthless. Epic feats represent a more integral part of character building. Why do all the active choices just seem bad?
Well I don't think I'm tired of making it yet, so I'd probably not read my posts. I wouldn't want you to get sick because of me.
 

Raedier

Well-known member
I'm getting tired of this argument. There are ALOT of heroic abilities that are much stronger than stuff you get from epic destiny trees. Immunity strip, haste boost, level 8/9 spells, etc. If you take DB out of the equation there were never really any ED SLA's that were even close to as strong as level 9 spells after the spell pass. If anything your just driving home the point that DB was far stronger than other caster epic strikes.
If your going to compare ED abilities to anything it should be heroic enhancement trees, and the SLA's within those trees. Epic destinies can be reset and shuffled around at a whim, that's a big difference from level 9 spells which come from 17+ class caster levels.
Comparing class features to an enhancement tree, even if it's a epic enhancement tree, doesn't make any sense.

False, adrenaline, hunts end, primal spells, DB. All those were top contenders before the nerfs. Adrenaline still is. And that is not an SLA but why should we only have to consider SLA’s when considering overall game balance?

DB was far stronger then the other caster strikes, everyone already knew that. It also needed an adjustment, but not this gutting. The only thing it did was damage, now that is just a flop.

And hey, guess what? Pretty much all SLA’s that come from enhancement trees are useless post lvl 20 and most ppl ditch those, I know I ditch all SLA’s as soon as I hit lvl 17, or earlier if I am playing sorc. so yes, let’s balance our epic strikes that share a cool-down around SLA’s! See where you’re not making any sense now?

I’d argue having a hardly usable “epic” ability takes the fun out of it. That’s just personal opinion tho.

I will say that epic spell feats are criminally underpowered. The spell pass, and it's design implementation left a lot of stuff behind. There isn't any good reason for things like Hellball or arcane pulse to be as terrible as they are. With the way heroic spells scale, master of feats are worthless. Epic feats represent a more integral part of character building. Why do all the active choices just seem bad?

I agree here.
 
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Mystra

Goddess of Magic
All I'm going to say is Quick Cutter is utter crap still.

Why bother even "buffing" this crap.

And in before bunch of fanbois throw shade and say it's actually a contender against adren.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
All I'm going to say is Quick Cutter is utter crap still.

Why bother even "buffing" this crap.

And in before bunch of fanbois throw shade and say it's actually a contender against adren.
For dps no, but it is a contender against drifting lotus for builds that don't want to be centered.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
Math showing a comparison to several years ago should account for the fact that most people absolutely want old content to get easier over time.
 

DarthBUNBUN

Active member
False, adrenaline, hunts end, primal spells, DB. All those were top contenders before the nerfs. Adrenaline still is. And that is not an SLA but why should we only have to consider SLA’s when considering overall game balance?

DB was far stronger, everyone already knew that. It also needed an adjustment, but not this gutting. The only thing it did was damage, now that is just a flop.

And hey, guess what? Pretty much all SLA’s that come from enhancement trees are useless post lvl 20 and most ppl ditch those, I know I ditch all SLA’s as soon as I hit lvl 17, or earlier if I am playing sorc. so yes, let’s balance our epic strikes that share a cool-down around SLA’s! See where you’re not making any sense now?

I’d argue having a hardly usable “epic” ability takes the fun out of it. That’s just personal opinion tho.
False? I never said epic destinies didn't have standouts. I said that heroic abilities also have standouts which are just as strong, and in some cases can actually be stronger.

If they were exclusive would people always pick adrenaline over action boost, haste? Hunt's end over fusillade? Weapon strikes don't really directly compare to spells so it'd be strange if their epic strikes did either, just like their mantles do entirely different things. Weapon users get their power spike from legendary loaded weapon dice, adrenaline is nothing compared to that. Caster's get their power spike from from loaded spell dice. As an aside, If hunt's end was good by itself isn't it actually better now? Or is the real nerf precisely that you can't use it in conjunction with certain heroic abilities like sniper shot?

DB should be compared to other SLAs BECAUSE IT IS A SLA. It's not exclusive with heroic spells, nor is it the same with cooldowns, SP cost and metas. DB is now around the same as the other epic SLA's. Which a lot of people will consider lacking. Which probably indicates that SLAs in general are not a good balance point for casters to begin with. Which is exactly why comparing them to heroic spells is a bad comparison.

I wouldn't actually even say DB needed an adjustment to begin with. It's only real standout feature was it's one-shot AOE ability when combined with it's MCL.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but their design choices have been consistent in loading caster power into heroic spells. In fact they've taken some of the most powerful epic spells and made them into heroic ones. Divine wrath, arcane tempest, tsunami, all used to be "epic" and now they "heroic".

I'm just tired of these arbitrary talking points centered around "epic" vs "heroic". People don't like that DB is getting double nerfed, and I get that. However, getting your most powerful caster abilities at lvl 15+ isn't just the new DB, it's epic SLAs and caster's in general. The sentiment that "epic" abilities must be superior to "heroic" ones isn't the reality of the game and it's one I would disagree with moving forward.

It's hard to say exactly what they are trying to accomplish with this so called ED pass, but making room for future legendary abilities is probably on the list somewhere. In that case wouldn't it be inevitable that the new whizbang SLA will need an adjustment so that the newer whizbang SLA can compete. I would much rather see something like a double cast stat, or legendary increased spellpower scaling than caster's being defined by some new legendary SLA they come up with.

People have pointed out that DB is a crutch and that without it DI has some serious flaws that need to be addressed. An adjustment of SD caster strike is not going to be enough to make the tree good for casters. Removed on save is probably the worst implementation of how to balance carrion swarm. If anything there has been has been way too much focus on epic strikes up or down, while ignoring a lot of other issues.
 

karthunk

Dooooooom
Guys seriously...

Have any of you actually tried any of these changes out on LIVE??

Ranged got a MASSIVE BUFF.

AoE Nuke damage at the speed of a repeater - ZERO mana.

Stop LARPING.

They are too hung up on single target dps being lower to notice how much better the entire ranged package is now playing in 99% of the content which requires AE attacks.
 

Redoubt

Well-known member
No because it's an AoE. They are applying 1d8+8 to single target abilities.
The shadow dancer strike has both a ranged and a melee option. From what I can tell so far, only the ranged one is becoming AOE. So if the standard for single target is 1d8+8, they should do that for the melee version and apply the AOE ranged standard to the ranged version.
 
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