Lamannia Update 68 Preview 2 - Wild Mage Archetype

[EvilDragon]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the shared level thing primarily seems to be beneficial for an 18 Sorc / 2 FvS build with the healing SLA, yeah?

Is there anything else that caster level really will help significantly?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not disappointed in this at all! I'm really looking forward to that particular build. I was just wondering what other synergy I'm missing here.)

Correct. I do not think there would be any meaningful impact on any caster multiclass combination rather than 18 WM / 2 FvS which is the only thing I can think as actually meaningfully useful.
For every combination you try with +4 WM, from each you'll find nothing practical because you lose capstone ability (Sorcerer immunity bypass), important enhancement cores, high-level spells, or class features. 16 WM / 4 Paladin for 1-level paladin spells for 20 CL?? 19 WM / 1 Alch for 1-level alchemist spells for 20 CL?
Considering how it'd be useful is funny, but I always prone to find myself that there's nothing really useful even if that can be fun to try, but not really useful. I feel like It's the same level of a yay-for-funness build where a sorcerer would use a repeating crossbow with eldritch knight weapon imbue (=sounds fun but why).

 

[seph1roth5]

I think it'll be useful in weird multiclass builds that aren't exactly meta. Like...some sort of 12/3 swash mix, leaves a bit of room for 4 sorc.

 

[EvilDragon]

Mixed Magics: Your Caster Level with spells is now equal to your Character Level instead of individual class levels (max 20). This does not change the caster level of Rune Arms, Wands, Scrolls, or other Items. (Known Issue: The limit of 20 is not working in this preview.)

I think this should alter every spell to use your charisma modifier instead of its original spellcasting ability. For example, if you have "Necrotic Ray" spell from Wizard spell, Sorcerer spell, and Cleric death domain spell, those will be INT/CHA/WIS based spells. but if a spell uses INT or WIS, the enhancement should alter it to use CHA instead of INT/WIS (as long as CHA is higher than the original stat)
This will make multiclassing casters meaningful.

With this, you can, at least, try something like 4 WM / 16 Druid, and use druid spells as if those are Charisma based spells - Earthquake spell with Charisma modifier? It now sounds interesting to me. (although you still lose 9-level spells, and 22 APs)

 

[EvilDragon]

I think it'll be useful in weird multiclass builds that aren't exactly meta. Like...some sort of 12/3 swash mix, leaves a bit of room for 4 sorc.

Through 22 APs to get Mixed Magics enhancement? I think I'd do more useful by spending that amount in somewhere...

 

[Shao Kahn]

I think this should alter every spell to use your charisma modifier instead of its original spellcasting ability. For example, if you have "Necrotic Ray" spell from Wizard spell, Sorcerer spell, and Cleric death domain spell, those will be INT/CHA/WIS based spells. but if a spell uses INT or WIS, the enhancement should alter it to use CHA instead of INT/WIS (as long as CHA is higher than the original stat)
This will make multiclassing casters meaningful.

With this, you can, at least, try something like 4 WM / 16 Druid, and use druid spells as if those are Charisma based spells - Earthquake spell with Charisma modifier? It now sounds interesting to me. (although you still lose 9-level spells, and 22 APs)

Why not just make Mixed Magics use the highest of your spellcasting stat for spells?

 

[SpardaX]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the shared level thing primarily seems to be beneficial for an 18 Sorc / 2 FvS build with the healing SLA, yeah?

Is there anything else that caster level really will help significantly?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not disappointed in this at all! I'm really looking forward to that particular build. I was just wondering what other synergy I'm missing here.)

Im strongly looking at doing a 15/5, to get the heal SLA and the healing fire SLA at the top of the same tree. But I agree it's basically just the same build with a different split. I have a couple other ideas, but we'll see how they go.

 

[EvilDragon]

Why not just make Mixed Magics use the highest of your spellcasting stat for spells?

intended design as I personally prefer restricting building in that way, and I didn't want all-in-one-solution like that. This restriction means you can't make Sorcerer/Bard/Warlock into non-CHA based spellcaster. (Unless SSG thinks making 20 Wild Mage as INT/WIS based spellcaster without multiclassing through this enhancement.)
But up to SSG anyway.

 

[EvilDragon]

Im strongly looking at doing a 15/5, to get the heal SLA and the healing fire SLA at the top of the same tree. But I agree it's basically just the same build with a different split. I have a couple other ideas, but we'll see how they go.

• 15 WM / 5 FvS
• WM 22 APs, BoH 36 APs (assuming you take all T5s) = 22 points left
• 15 WM: 7-level spells
• 5 FvS: 2-level spells

This is the minimal input for what you're trying. I am not sure what this can be.

 

[SpardaX]

• 15 WM / 5 FvS
• WM 22 APs, BoH 36 APs (assuming you take all T5s) = 22 points left
• 15 WM: 7-level spells
• 5 FvS: 2-level spells

This is the minimal input for what you're trying. I am not sure what this can be.

32 in BoH. Just want Heal and Fire. Dont need a raise dead or the beacons. They dont seem worth having.
Think I was gunna go for about 25ish points in WM.
23ish points left to put probably 9 into AoV and 14ish into an elemental Sav. The 3 cores from Sav + 4 cores from WM + Scourge from AoV should add up to a good amount of spell power. Getting Just Reward out of AoV is always nice for sustained spell points.
Gets level 7 spells, and between close wounds, heal, and the heal fire, should be good on self healing. I rarely use spells above level 7 anyway, so it should make for a fun self sufficient life. +2 CL and MCL out of the WM Toggle +1 CL and MCL out of the lv 12 WM core means I walk away with the same amount of CL / MCL as a pure Sorc in its own choice of element, which ALSO help the FvS heal and close wounds and I think even healing fire.

TL;DR: "I am not sure what this can be.", Answer: A high level sorc that can self heal that isnt a Warforged.

 

[DBZ]

Then just go Aasimar wait that got gutted too lol

 

[Shao Kahn]

intended design as I personally prefer restricting building in that way, and I didn't want all-in-one-solution like that. This restriction means you can't make Sorcerer/Bard/Warlock into non-CHA based spellcaster. (Unless SSG thinks making 20 Wild Mage as INT/WIS based spellcaster without multiclassing through this enhancement.)
But up to SSG anyway.

Well that's a pretty stupid and narrow minded way of thinking. I personally prefer that if you're going to do something then do it all the way not half way. You forget there are other spell casting classes other than sorc, bard, warlock. Cleric, arty, druid, etc would also benefit from multiclassing with Wild Mage. Some more than others I'm sure.

The problem with that is if you multiclass a cleric with a wild mage for example and go Wis for main casting stat your cleric spells DCs would be fine but your wild mage spells wouldn't be because wild mage has a different spell casting stat aka Cha. Also why would a sorc/bard/warlock want to use a different spell casting stat like wis for example. I can see Int for spell power but that should be up to the player to decide what they want to do for their character. Besides as I said before in PnP 3.5, which this game was originally based on Wild Mage wasn't just for sorcs but open to any spell casting class with only being any chaotic as the prereq. So why would it be so bad to have Wild Magics use the highest of your spell casting stat for DCs if you multiclass.

 

[Purr]

So far great changes in general.

With Power in Chaos getting the rework can we please consider putting Eldritch Knight back in for those of us really wanting to play with the theme of Eladrin gishes? It still feels off to me that this is going to be the first Archetype to launch with 'two' enhancement trees. Even if you don't want to put EK here, I'd at least ask that you give us some third tree that isn't a Savant. Even if it wasn't a gish tree.

Can Rank 3 of Prismatic Mind also include Fey Lights for epic support? Or Unpredictable Consequences, either one of them leaning into Shiradi support would be nice.

Mixed Magics being capped at a max caster level of 20 isn't going to have unintentional consequences with Epic/Legendary levels?

Also is there a chance Shiradi could get the caster chance bumped up to 15% similar to ranged and given another option for chaotic damage?

What does gish mean in this context?

 

[ChickenMobile]

You forget there are other spell casting classes other than sorc, bard, warlock. Cleric, arty, druid, etc would also benefit from multiclassing with Wild Mage. Some more than others I'm sure.

There are some buff spells that would benefit for sure! Say you decide to make a Inquisitive 18 Sorc/2 Arti: Conjure Bolts will scale and give the +6 bolts at 20+ rather than the max of +2 normally.
Same with grabbing spells like Magic Fang (+5 inst. max +2) or Nightshield/other buffs lasting for longer durations - which is just handy.

 

[Scrag]

There are some buff spells that would benefit for sure! Say you decide to make a Inquisitive 18 Sorc/2 Arti: Conjure Bolts will scale and give the +6 bolts at 20+ rather than the max of +2 normally.
Same with grabbing spells like Magic Fang (+5 inst. max +2) or Nightshield/other buffs lasting for longer durations - which is just handy.

There are some things that break max caster level, like in radiant servant. You can sla cure medium wounds at 20 (+ levels in epics?) with only 6 levels of cleric, with all the good spellness you can add to it.

Plus really long duration buffs and things.

 

[Edrein]

What does gish mean in this context?

Mixing spells and weapon combat.

 

[droid327]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the shared level thing primarily seems to be beneficial for an 18 Sorc / 2 FvS build with the healing SLA, yeah?

Is there anything else that caster level really will help significantly?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not disappointed in this at all! I'm really looking forward to that particular build. I was just wondering what other synergy I'm missing here.)

Yeah the trade-off of losing your top-tier endgame spells is usually not worth the benefit of tacking on first- and second-level Sorc spells and splashing some points in Savant

The only build idea I've seen discussed that might have some merit is 14 Sacred Fist/6 WM, since their two AOE Ki spells will benefit from Fire Savant crit and MCL, and they have no real "caster" tree of their own. Still, that's a very niche build that basically just has two buttons.

Edit: oh or maybe a 11 da/9 wm to get full DA and NEB with full Harm for...reasons, idk. Wonky backdoor PM with split casting stat lol

 

[EvilDragon]

You forget there are other spell casting classes other than sorc, bard, warlock. Cleric, arty, druid, etc would also benefit from multiclassing with Wild Mage. Some more than others I'm sure.

I am very aware of how other all classes work, and I exactly know what I am saying. Like I said, I don't like all-in-one-solution through Wild Mage, and if something that alters all spell casting ability into INT/WIS rather than CHA should exist, it should be other class feature rather than Wild Mage's.
Let me give you an example. If the enhancement alters all spells to follow highest one among INT/CHA/WIS, I am pretty sure INT will be popular because it provides a lot of skill points, but also it's a good combination with insightful reflex. I don't think it's healthy for the game. This is why I say CHA only in this case. But also, what's wrong with it? If every spell uses CHA mod, they don't have to invest other abilities rather than CHA.

You know, in this case, 20 Pure Wild Mage has no reason to be CHA main when they can go full INT. Why? Spellcraft is INT skill. WM will be stronger than standard sorcerers, but now full int to get more spell power? I don't like this design. It should be CHA mod.

 

[Shao Kahn]

I am very aware of how other all classes work, and I exactly know what I am saying. Like I said, I don't like all-in-one-solution through Wild Mage, and if something that alters all spell casting ability into INT/WIS rather than CHA should exist, it should be other class feature rather than Wild Mage's.
Let me give you an example. If the enhancement alters all spells to follow highest one among INT/CHA/WIS, I am pretty sure INT will be popular because it provides a lot of skill points, but also it's a good combination with insightful reflex. I don't think it's healthy for the game. This is why I say CHA only in this case. But also, what's wrong with it? If every spell uses CHA mod, they don't have to invest other abilities rather than CHA.

You know, in this case, 20 Pure Wild Mage has no reason to be CHA main when they can go full INT. Why? Spellcraft is INT skill. WM will be stronger than standard sorcerers, but now full int to get more spell power? I don't like this design. It should be CHA mod.

Yes INT would be popular, just like WIS would be popular with builds that multiclass with WM. Just like there is still benefit with using CHA. It should be up to the players to decide how they want to build because this game was built on builds and player choice. If you don't like something or don't want to take an ability you don't have to take it. You are not being forced to take it. If it should be up to another class feature than WM then which other class feature would it be?

If it's so wrong so unreasonable to have pure Wild Mages potentially use the highest of your INT/WIS/CHA for spell casting DC then either delete the entire ability all together or implement a restriction that you must have atleast 1 level in a different spell casting class to access it.

"Mixed Magics: You may now use the highest of your INT/WIS/CHA for DCs of your spells. Your Caster Level with spells is now equal to your Character Level instead of individual class levels (max 20). This does not change the caster level of Rune Arms, Wands, Scrolls, or other Items. Must have taken at least 1 level in another spell casting class."

 

[EvilDragon]

Yes INT would be popular, just like WIS would be popular with builds that multiclass with WM. Just like there is still benefit with using CHA. It should be up to the players to decide how they want to build because this game was built on builds and player choice. If you don't like something or don't want to take an ability you don't have to take it. You are not being forced to take it. If it should be up to another class feature than WM then which other class feature would it be?

If it's so wrong so unreasonable to have pure Wild Mages potentially use the highest of your INT/WIS/CHA for spell casting DC then either delete the entire ability all together or implement a restriction that you must have atleast 1 level in a different spell casting class to access it.

"Mixed Magics: You may now use the highest of your INT/WIS/CHA for DCs of your spells. Your Caster Level with spells is now equal to your Character Level instead of individual class levels (max 20). This does not change the caster level of Rune Arms, Wands, Scrolls, or other Items. Must have taken at least 1 level in another spell casting class."

The difference comes from the design direction. You are right as you're inclined to allow various possibilities to people, while I am also inclined to that but not permissive. Player choice, yes, and that only comes when the game allows. You don't take an ability that you don't like but as long as the game allows it. I like the player's freedom of choice as well, but I am not in favour of merging everything into a single solution, I've been saying. This is why I don't like FvS using both of WIS/CHA in spellcasting ability and SP pool (but It's understandable since they were designed to be greedy. Sin of SSG.) But they are not that excessive.

"Must have taken at least 1 level in another spell casting class." might look fine, but it's also weird to me as you can be INT/WIS based spellcaster with only CHA classes, but also I don't like that restriction exists. I feel this is closer to restricting the player's choice.

• [Mine] "You can take it if you like it, but it's only effective when your main stat is CHA."
• [Yours] "You can take it only when you do multiclass with other classes."

It's tricky, isn't it? I wouldn't say every person would feel the same, but for me, I feel my suggestion doesn't have restriction than your suggestion even if mine doesn't open more possibilities than yours. "There is no option existing." over "There is an option but you should do something."


Now, let's talk about "other class feature". Why shouldn't this be outside of WM exclusive? Why can't wizard have this too? Archmage tree having the identical enhancement but as INT alt. Cleric domain "Magic" to alter WIS alt.
If you have read my posts, I am more interested to make multiclassing caster classes more common by allowing caster levels shared without this enhancement, but DC check is another issue.


Note that I also don't like modern designs that every ED spells being INT/WIS/CHA the same, but ED is difficult to design and I can understand it. There should have been something altering spellcasting ability in the game like my suggestion.

 

[EvilDragon]

Design Goals

• Create an archetype that fits with the Wild Magic theme of Myth Drannor
• Strong multiclass support with Warlock, Bard, FvS, Chaos Domain Cleric, and sub-support for Alc and Art

From WM preview 1, to make my suggestion more convincing for SSG.

They said they want to support multiclass with "Chaos Domain Cleric"
Let's assume both of WM and Cleric use Chaos Hammer spell (by the Design Goals he said.)

• 5 Cleric (Chaos domain SLA requirement): uses WIS
• 8 WM (Chaos hammer is 4-level spell): uses CHA

5 Cleric level will be capable of casting Chaos Hammer with 20 CL, but this build is not viable because Cleric uses WIS while WM uses CHA. You should take WIS and CHA, but it is very difficult to take both for a caster. Caster Level isn't an issue. DC is an issue for every offensive spell.
Mixed Magics should alter spellcasting ability of spells into CHA mod if they really want to make this usable.