Lammania Update 60 Preview 2 - XP Pass Pushed Off - But some Fixes may stick

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Torc

Systems Developer
High Level Summary:

  1. We are punting on any XP changes that change XP totals for ANY difficulty.

  2. The Conquest XP bonus has problems, we've fixed some of them but not all of them.

  3. This preview still has some of the "Stuff" we are punting on, but we are looking at only pushing some of the fixes for U60 build. You'll have to keep reading for those details.

More Detail:

Okie!

We are finding more problems with the conquest system logic than we expected, and it's going to take to much time for us to fix for this update cycle. If we can't fix conquest, much of the aim of this pass really is moot.

In addition! These adjustments are very controversial! We still believe the value preposition of killing a monster in the XP meta is probably lower than it should be, but fixing this may require flushing out other game play flows, and we have several promising ideas but not the time to do them for this update cycle.

We are going to try to keep some of our fixes to the conquest system that we have managed, and to the reaper feedback. A list of what we'll try to keep is at the bottom of this page. The conquest system as a whole will eventually be fixed. It appears to have multi issues so this may take some time.

Changes in this Preview

1. Bravery Bonus is being renamed Delving Bonus. Still. It's also getting a new tier for reaper so it will now work as thus...

Hard 50% Bonus
Elite 100% Bonus
Reaper 150% Bonus


2. the "First Time Bonuses" per difficulty are being removed

3.
Conquest, Aggressor and Onslaught Bonuses are be greatly boosted, and give different values based on difficulty.

Onslaught was increased to 60% on elite and reaper in this build.

NEW CONQUEST BONUS VALUES

NormalHardEliteReaperOld RequirementNew Requirement
Conquest5075100100kill 80% of mobs in questkill 75% of the mobs in quest
Onslaught35456060kill 65% of the mobs in questkill 50% of mobs in quest
Aggression25252525kill 50% of the mobs in questkill 25% of mobs in quest

Additional....

A> There is now a Cap on numbers of monsters required to get conquest bonuses, so you will get the following bonus if you hit this value.... This should fix conquest in many of our larger dungeons.​
Conquest100 Kills
Onslaught67 Kills
Aggression34 Kills
B> The following Dungeons were reviewed and fixed for conquest bonus. Note - Monsters with alternate solutions (social skills, quest story branching, splinterskull just being splinterskull) are not counted against your conquest total - Example Feywild Make Believe - The Eladrin guards or the two Redcap groups that can be eliminated via social skilled. The majority of this pass is about allowing for special cases like that.​
  1. Primary Sharn Story Line (Not Cogs)
  2. Ravenloft Series
  3. Gambler's Den in the Harbor
  4. SplinterSkull
  5. Feywild - Make Believe and Windmill
C> Monster Conquest counts in the UI are not in this build (We kinda got it working but there are to many bugs for even a preview)​

4. Reaper XP

A> Reaper XP will now display before getting your 10 kills , and let you know you don't get reaper xp till you kill 10 mobs​
B> The Reaper XP 200% first time XP bonus will now display in the quest panel when it applies, and it will state that this bonus is used instead of delving
5. Changes we are considering trying to keep for U60

  1. Lower the Conquest threshold requirements - So Aggression would go to 25% monsters killed, Onslaught 50%, Conquest 75%, etc, but XP bonuses would NOT change.

  2. The Monster Count Cap for Conquest - So as the chart above, killing 100 mobs in a quest will always get you full conquest. This just fixes conquest in a lot of big quests.

  3. The Fixes to the listed Quests - It's not feasible at this point to hand fix all of our conquest problems, but might as well take the ones we got.

  4. Reaper UI improvements - As above

  5. We may keep the name delving - First Time Bonus is still around, but the extra 50% that Reaper gets over Elite is going to stay in the new Reaper Delving Tier. This means that the bonuses are as follows:
    Solo, Casual, Normal, Hard: 20% (as before)

    Elite, Reaper: 45% (as before for Elite, was 95% reaper before, that 50% is moving to Delving)

    Delving Bonus for reaper goes to 150% (total xp remains the same)
 
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CBDunk

Well-known member
I like most of the changes that are happening and most of the changes that I don't like AREN'T happening... for now.

So... I'm a fan.

That said, I'd again suggest calling the 'Delving' bonus something descriptive. 'Bravery' was originally so called because you had to play at higher difficulty for multiple quests in a row to maximize it. Now it, and thus 'Delving', is really just a first time difficulty bonus. So why not call it that? The word 'delving' does absolutely nothing to explain what the bonus is or why it is applied. Might as well be called the 'Doing Things Bonus'.

The clearest term might be 'Progressive Difficulty Bonus'... but just 'Difficulty Bonus' also works. As would various forms of 'First Time Difficulty Bonus'... except for the fact that we already have a separate similarly named bonus.
 

MSC

Well-known member
3. Conquest, Aggressor and Onslaught Bonuses are be greatly boosted, and give different values based on difficulty.

Onslaught was increased to 60% on elite and reaper in this build.

NEW CONQUEST BONUS VALUES

NormalHardEliteReaperOld RequirementNew Requirement
Conquest5075100100kill 80% of mobs in questkill 75% of the mobs in quest
Onslaught35456060kill 65% of the mobs in questkill 50% of mobs in quest
Aggression25252525kill 50% of the mobs in questkill 25% of mobs in quest

Additional....

A> There is now a Cap on numbers of monsters required to get conquest bonuses, so you will get the following bonus if you hit this value.... This should fix conquest in many of our larger dungeons.​
Conquest100 Kills
Onslaught67 Kills
Aggression34 Kills
C> Monster Conquest counts in the UI are not in this build (We kinda got it working but there are to many bugs for even a preview)​

Conquest counts UI would still be very much appreciated.

The suggested cap on numbers of monsters for various bonuses would fix MANY of the problem quests, this is a good idea, please keep that.

Also thanks for the onslaught bump to 60 on elite/reaper.

Glad to see it's being punted.

But it really needs to get punted into the garbage can still.
With the suggested cap for kill bonuses, if you don't run past aggro'ed mobs, the changes are a exp parity or buff for most quests in the game. There are probably still some odd-ball quests that have kill bonus issues even with the cap. Practically all expac quests where one could not get onslaught or conquest now easily get there since they just have so many enemies, and it reaches equal exp, or gets a 40% boost from conquest.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
We still believe the value preposition of killing a monster in the XP meta is probably lower than it should be

Hi Torc. Is Conquest meant to solve the "Dungeon Alert is bad for server performance" problem? In past threads there was implied connection with server performance. If it is meant to address server performance, please share some insight into how that's achieved. On the surface, the total number of mobs killed and the total number of aggro'd mobs at a given time seem to be two totally different things.
 

ShinuzukaRakam

Active member
Any of the fixes that are listed in the "potentially keep" section would be great to see happen, especially 1 through 4. The more, the better.

I've never been a fan of Reaper giving more non-Reaper XP than Elite, but that's just something that seems like it's here to stay, regardless.
 

Elminster

Well-known member
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somenewnoob

Well-known member
It may be a good idea to do EVERY QUEST conquest, kill numbers etc. in an update, and let us play with those numbers and provide feedback for a month or so. And then in ANOTHER UPDATE change the first time bonuses etc.

That way the whole conquest thing gets worked out well before the changes to first time, delving, etc. go live.

I feel like if that approach had been taken to begin with we may have whittled the other threads down to 30ish pages of negative feedback!

1. DO ALL QUESTS kill bonuses.
2. Do an update.
2. Let us run through them and find problems.
3. Do the first time delving etc. AND fix the problems we find.
4. Do an update.

In that order.
 

Cordovan

Community Manager
Hi Torc. Is Conquest meant to solve the "Dungeon Alert is bad for server performance" problem? In past threads there was implied connection with server performance. If it is meant to address server performance, please share some insight into how that's achieved. On the surface, the total number of mobs killed and the total number of aggro'd mobs at a given time seem to be two totally different things.

Sort of, although the Dungeon Alert notification system itself does not impact server performance; it simply alerts you that current behavior is impacting server performance and encourages you to do something about it.

Game performance is exponentially degraded if enemies are chasing a player versus if enemies are fighting a player, and the cost to server performance goes up exponentially as well the further away they are from you. So generally a smaller group of enemies chasing after you, with you running away from them, is far more expensive than a much larger group of enemies surrounding you while you fight them, whether through AOE or individual attacks.

Ditching monsters is very bad for game performance, which is why the Dungeon Alert system was created back in the day to begin with.
 

Sylla

Well-known member
I still dont like the general idea of this change. I always hoped for more true DnD style of solving problems. More sneaking, more social skills usage to bypass fights... like in the Red Rain, that one gang you can social or kill. More of this please.

Why are you so adamant on pushing murder-hobo playstyle? You had this game in your hands for many years now and many of your quest designs looks like a Diablo rather than DnD.

Edit to emphasize my point: In your recent quest Army of Eternal Night. There is optional for a miniscule bonus exp to save Villagers. In DnD this type of optional would be a huge deal. Sure getting the Eye and killing the bad guy is important goal, but now i always feels like a ******** when i just zoom past the poor villagers. It breaks immersion.

Make your opt quests matter. In one way or the other, but current status of optionals in DDO is so so bad.
 
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somenewnoob

Well-known member
Sort of, although the Dungeon Alert notification system itself does not impact server performance; it simply alerts you that current behavior is impacting server performance and encourages you to do something about it.

Game performance is exponentially degraded if enemies are chasing a player versus if enemies are fighting a player, and the cost to server performance goes up exponentially as well the further away they are from you. So generally a smaller group of enemies chasing after you, with you running away from them, is far more expensive than a much larger group of enemies surrounding you while you fight them, whether through AOE or individual attacks.

Ditching monsters is very bad for game performance, which is why the Dungeon Alert system was created back in the day to begin with.


Does "ditching" monsters include not killing monsters in the dungeon who have not been aggroed?

Because the approach you are taking seems dubious if it doesn't.

If monster AI etc. chasing us down is "causing lag".........I don't think anybody sees how aggroing more monsters is going to help. 60 pages or so........

You know the way we do things is gather up stuff hit our big boosts and mow them all down at once usually, right?

All those extra mobs you want us to aggro are going to spend some time chasing us until we have enough gathered to bother to stop and nuke em.

Even on a melee I don't usually stop for 2 kobolds, I run down the hall a little, couple more......little more, ok few more here, ok stop, action boost, cleave cleave chop chop dead.
 

Cordovan

Community Manager
Does "ditching" monsters include not killing monsters in the dungeon who have not been aggroed?

Because the approach you are taking seems dubious if it doesn't.

If monster AI etc. chasing us down is "causing lag".........I don't think anybody sees how aggroing more monsters is going to help. 60 pages or so........

You know the way we do things is gather up stuff hit our big boosts and mow them all down at once usually, right?

No, this involves enemies that are aware of you. The main difference re: your last point is that you will in fact still be fighting them rather than not fighting them.
 

Argavyon

Member
A> There is now a Cap on numbers of monsters required to get conquest bonuses, so you will get the following bonus if you hit this value.... This should fix conquest in many of our larger dungeons.
Conquest100 Kills
Onslaught67 Kills
Aggression34 Kills
Interesting idea. May I suggest making the caps scale off quest length (ie: very long quests get higher caps, very short quests get lower caps)
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
No, this involves enemies that are aware of you. The main difference re: your last point is that you will in fact still be fighting them rather than not fighting them.

I gotcha i think. So in my kobold gathering, say I have 6 chasing me for a bit before I stop and hack hack. Say chasing me for 10 seconds each.(60 seconds of chase before kill) Performance wise, that is better than having one kobold chasing me for 60 seconds that I never kill?
 

ACJ97F

Well-known member
The XP system has been borked ever since the Reaper fiasco made game difficulty slide downhill faster than Cartman on a sled.
You get more Non-Reaper XP, doing Reaper, and easier than Elite due to Scaling VS Reaper bonuses. I'm not sure the last time
we stepped into an Elite mission. They could go Casual-Normal-Hard-Reaper, and many players wouldn't notice it was missing.
 

Dragnilar

Dragonborn of Bahamut
Glad to see the more controversial changes are being backlogged for the time being @Torc.

I'd prefer if reaper didn't get as big of a bonus over elite. It's not a deal breaker for me though.

As for the conquest bonus changes go - I'm looking forward to seeing it on live. However, I do hope you can fix it for the smaller quests in the months ahead. And Maaaaybe also address the same with ransack/vandal/mischief. There are some dungeons that seem to never give even mischief.

Thanks for the update!
 

Argavyon

Member
Game performance is exponentially degraded if enemies are chasing a player versus if enemies are fighting a player, and the cost to server performance goes up exponentially as well the further away they are from you. So generally a smaller group of enemies chasing after you, with you running away from them, is far more expensive than a much larger group of enemies surrounding you while you fight them, whether through AOE or individual attacks.
That sounds like the pathing algorithm is severely unoptimized tbh. Does it have any sort of preprocessing optimizations?
 
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