Lamordia Fortification - Seriously?

[woq]

Lamordia saves are hard to defeat solo without debuffing them somehow first. The problem is that the game doesn't really reward gameplay like that (like a cleric going in to cast prayer, having ranged apply 10 stacks of track on opening so that DC casters can land their spells). It is much easier to swing a weapon or shoot them and if you need magic damage, apply imbue or attacks that add magical damage.

It's the nature of the beast that doesn't really reward the good ol' slow setup group D&D play, because the amount of repetition you need to do to progress in this game is so high that slower more engaging play like that doesn't get you anywhere. That's why super high saves should be limited to Raids and individual chunky monsters instead of regular "pack" -type spawns.

... Same applies to fortification, except we have way more tools to reduce fortification or increase our bypass compared to dropping enemy saves / increasing DCs of caster characters. But it does hurt build variety and newer players. They don't have crits while endgame players breeze through.

 

[woq]

Those are not the same people. A loud minority of hardcore, top 1% players calls R10 too easy. Most players are casuals and would fall into the second group, they are just not as "loud".

A game usually cannot thrive by only catering to the hardcore crowd (see Wildstar for ex.)

Casual players probably aren't expected to play on R10. It isn't the loud minoritys fault that when they want high reaper to be harder they leave high reaper intact but make regular game harder instead of touching the appropriate higher difficulties.

 

[Bobbryan2]

Forum: DDO is a joke! Stop powercreep. 1st life toons can do r10...
Devs: Let's increase difficulty.
Forums: WAAH!!! Mean Devs hates us!

So... with your analysis. Who is at fault? The DDO devs? Or random people on the forums?

 

[voenixa121]

Sure, if you don't want to do new or harder endgame content for the next 6 years or whatever it is, then you could just ignore it entirely. There's plenty of folks already who ignore min/max gear and just adjust the difficulty to whatever works for them. I can get away with a lot less gearing effort on my elite difficulty farming alts then my high skull characters.

Elite is the same as reaper as far as saves and fortification goes. And you get even lower spell DCs because no reaper enhancements. It's a nice thought and I wish it would be the solution, but the difficulty system isn't working as intended anymore, sorry.

 

[Urklore]

I posted some observations here a bit ago and essentially came to the same conclusion you did.
Since then tried changing the way play a bit: by casting Hypnotism on pack of mobs first, spamming Color Spray so Twist Reality reduces will saves further etc. However... they still save and this just gives them more time to slap me in the face while I waste all my SP...
Tried adding Haunting Melody from Spellsinger as well, but Fascinate (song) is just too dangerous to use.

This is the first expansion where I'm having trouble running R1 solo easily - my damaging spells are constantly failing and doing half dmg too (Horn of Thunder was doing 25-40k, is now doing 15 - luckily I don't think many mobs there have Evasion).


Most Lamordia mobs are going to save a 100 Fortitude DC, hell they are probably even going to save a 140 Fortitude DC. Only Nat 1 saves at this point will work.
At least for martials - to get off stuns / sunders reliably in newer content requires DCs anywhere from 150 (quests) to 180 (raids) vs monster Fort save.
This is possible with a Dragon Lord with all the Tactic Feats, 110+ standing Strength, STR Trance Snapshot from a specific STR item swap (e.g. every filigree is +STR) & every tactic bonus on items etc. but that is a huge investment.

Constitution DMG & Negative Levels could help but Epic mobs recover from them so quickly!


I am a firm believer that hardcore Min/Max players/party groups should have an option to test their skill to limits in all tactical games like this.
It shouldn't be the standard difficulty for normal players with basic optimised gear however.

I want to go back to MY version of DDO. Where the bard ran in and used fascinate to stop all the mobs.

Does anyone even put bard fascinate on the hot bar anymore? :(
Same with sleep or hypnotism.

 

[The Narc2]

I want to go back to MY version of DDO. Where the bard ran in and used fascinate to stop all the mobs.

Does anyone even but bard fascinate on the hot bar anymore? :(
Same with sleep or hypnotism.

EXTREME MV Permadeath does, but we heavily restrict many things that would amount to power creep.

 

[rabidfox]

Elite is the same as reaper as far as saves and fortification goes. And you get even lower spell DCs because no reaper enhancements.

Mobs have higher saves on reaper than elite (and iirc skulls come into play for it too).

 

[Lyrin]

Okay, I get it, casters have also been screwed in ways. The fact that saves have gone up more than available DC increases is BS.

I still say giving every mob 100% fort is BS. On R10? Sure, I can see that. Yes, my fellow veterans who spec for pure DPS can get over 100% bypass, but making that a requirement is utter nonsense. Crits are 56% (actual math) of my damage!

Hybrid builds really have been sh@t upon the hardest. I've enjoyed playing a DPS/tank hybrid for years, and now I feel like the viability has gone down considerably. I put a lot of effort into being able to tank raids *and* deal OK (not great, but decent) damage. Having all relevant past lives (all but 10) certainly lets me shine where a first life build that is otherwise the same would struggle. Uberpletionist shouldn't be a requirement for a hybrid build, though.

Not having to play only one archetype is part of what makes DDO amazing. Frankly, I don't care if one or two builds can solo R10 or deal more damage than anyone else. There will always be outliers. But please, for the love of all that is holy, don't make these kind of builds feel like the only viable thing.

 

[Fizban]

For reference, I'm dual wielding scimitars on a close to maxed out Dragonlord.

This is your issue right there. If you're not a PK killing Dragonlord your melee killing power is pretty weak. This is why No ONE played a Dragonlord for years until DDO mistakenly opened it up to fighters.

 

[TrappedSoulstone]

Difficulty of monsters expected to go up with resources available to overcome it. I think it should be proportionate. And yes you are expected to have some setup as melee just as casters do. There may be disbalance for current "newer" content however. I do not like it much - Id rather move extra difficulty into reaper scaling and leave elite increase on part with new power available. I can see however setup for "endgame" - hard to complete, hard to grind, slow progression state of perma cap gaming.

 

[l_remmie]

That is literally powercreep. 1. Make players more powerful 2. Make game more difficult 3. go back to 1. What do players even gain from that except higher numbers? More grind I guess.
Can't even touch player power when fixing the lag. Better to delete all trees, rocks and npc pathfinding. Just put +5 saves and +100 fortification on all enemies if someone complains it's "too easy". Is that even gamedesign anymore?


So what would happen if bypass was reduced by 100% and fortification of enemies was reduced by 100%? Is there a point to this? That's not evolution. It's a treadmill.
Might as well not bother with any new content until level 40 cap is reached and we get another stat squish.

Yes it is a treadmill. People play the game for the treadmill experience.
I'd like the treadmill to have some more function and features but it is always gonna be a treadmill, because treadmills never stop.

 

[Lyrin]

This is your issue right there. If you're not a PK killing Dragonlord your melee killing power is pretty weak. This is why No ONE played a Dragonlord for years until DDO mistakenly opened it up to fighters.

I don't build just for killing trash mobs.

Your post kind of emphasizes my earlier point... your POV seems to be "play top tier build or you're doing it wrong."

Excuse me for trying to play a build *I* find fun.

 

[unforgiven_broken]

aint no problems on a barb so really whats the issue with fort bypass? (no Im not falc t4 )

 

[Synalon]

In principle I am for increases to enemy saves and fort. I am apparently one of the "loud minority of hardcore, top 1%" players who would like the game to be a bit harder. If we had to play slower and more co-operatively, using things like debuffs and chokepoints, at least on high difficulties, great! I am all for it.

But will we ever use those things? Rofl no. In fact we're less likely to, because they're less likely to work. This just means dps is the path of least resistance, even more so than it was before.

It would be pretty cool if they added a spell to debuff enemy fort though.

 

[the_floyd]

Ok, stupid question but can someone explain how fortification/ fortification bypass works for players & monsters because apparently I have misunderstood this mechanic completely.

According to Wiki, fortification represents a percentage chance to negate critical hit damage. So, if my character had 100% fortification, then presumably they would have 0% chance of receiving additional critical hit damage...and also presumably the opposite is true for monsters, if they have 100% fortification there is 0% chance of them taking additional critical damage from me.

Wiki's explanation of bypass makes no sense (monster CR 20 vs player 100% fort = 20% chance to critically hit, CR 54 vs 150% fort = 4% chance, CR 29 vs 125% fort = 0% chance). ***?

Is bypass a percentage point by percentage point reduction in chance (e.g. 50% bypass vs 100% fort = 50% chance for critical hit; 50% bypass vs 150% fortification= 100% fort = 0% chance to critical hit) or is it a percentage reduction overall (e.g. 50% bypass vs 150% fort = 75% chance to critically hit; 100% bypass vs. 150% fort = normal / full critical)?

Or is it just whatever the Magic 8 ball says it is at any given time?

 

[Anurakh]

In principle I am for increases to enemy saves and fort. I am apparently one of the "loud minority of hardcore, top 1%" players who would like the game to be a bit harder. If we had to play slower and more co-operatively, using things like debuffs and chokepoints, at least on high difficulties, great! I am all for it.

But will we ever use those things? Rofl no. In fact we're less likely to, because they're less likely to work. This just means dps is the path of least resistance, even more so than it was before.

It would be pretty cool if they added a spell to debuff enemy fort though.

Making character abilities useless has never led to a fun game. I'm all for creating mechanics like the illithid pack, vengeance reapers, etc., that provide a more intelligent play experience. But if you raise saves too much, all you achieve is that people don't play casters.

My casters are all highly developed, so while I notice the save rolls and consider them unfair, they don't stop me. But I've seen players with less developed casters get very frustrated, or abandon their hybrids. The game shouldn't encourage that. There are other ways.

Those who were around during the Epic GH era will remember what happened when DCs were all impossible: casters basically disappeared, except for the shiradi builds, which was the only viable caster because it didn't need DCs.

As for debuffs, there are hardly any functional debuffs left on spells; they're all weapon debuffs. That ship seems to have sailed.

 

[Lyrin]

Making character abilities useless has never led to a fun game. I'm all for creating mechanics like the illithid pack, vengeance reapers, etc., that provide a more intelligent play experience. But if you raise saves too much, all you achieve is that people don't play casters.

My casters are all highly developed, so while I notice the save rolls and consider them unfair, they don't stop me. But I've seen players with less developed casters get very frustrated, or abandon their hybrids. The game shouldn't encourage that. There are other ways.

Those who were around during the Epic GH era will remember what happened when DCs were all impossible: casters basically disappeared, except for the shiradi builds, which was the only viable caster because it didn't need DCs.

As for debuffs, there are hardly any functional debuffs left on spells; they're all weapon debuffs. That ship seems to have sailed.

Funny side note, I went out of my way to get an Eye of Shavarath augment for my main hand weapon because I thought applying shaken to enemies would be an overall benefit.

 

[Bjond]

55% Fortification bypass, improved destruction on my weapon, and spamming sunder (108 DC)

If you have the DC to stick sunder, take T5 LD "Sundering Swings" and C4 DC "Sunder Evil". That's fortification-100 debuff right there.

My target for raid DPS is around 200% bypass (with debuffs); 55% is pathetic even for old capped content -- not surprised your crit is low.

Funny side note, I went out of my way to get an Eye of Shavarath augment for my main hand weapon because I thought applying shaken to enemies would be an

I use Shaken for T2 FOTW "Fear my Vengeance" which grants 3 attack/damage versus shaken and for T4 LD "Strike with Fear", which stacks up vulnerable versus shaken. The LD node also works for 5+Terror, though, so shaken offers only a very tiny potential gain there (basically only
worthwhile when you can't find anything else to use).

I haven't found any other uses.

 

[mikarddo]

Ok, stupid question but can someone explain how fortification/ fortification bypass works for players & monsters because apparently I have misunderstood this mechanic completely.

According to Wiki, fortification represents a percentage chance to negate critical hit damage. So, if my character had 100% fortification, then presumably they would have 0% chance of receiving additional critical hit damage...and also presumably the opposite is true for monsters, if they have 100% fortification there is 0% chance of them taking additional critical damage from me.

Wiki's explanation of bypass makes no sense (monster CR 20 vs player 100% fort = 20% chance to critically hit, CR 54 vs 150% fort = 4% chance, CR 29 vs 125% fort = 0% chance). ***?

Is bypass a percentage point by percentage point reduction in chance (e.g. 50% bypass vs 100% fort = 50% chance for critical hit; 50% bypass vs 150% fortification= 100% fort = 0% chance to critical hit) or is it a percentage reduction overall (e.g. 50% bypass vs 150% fort = 75% chance to critically hit; 100% bypass vs. 150% fort = normal / full critical)?

Or is it just whatever the Magic 8 ball says it is at any given time?

If your fort is 100 above the fort bypass of the mob you wont be critted. If you fort is 80 above you will be critted 20% of the time. If you fort is only 30 above you will be critted 70% of the time. Some mobs have alot of bypass and others have none

Similarly the other way.

 

[Jeronimo]

I noticed I was very rarely critically hitting, in spite of having good seeker and no problem hitting normally.

For reference, I'm dual wielding scimitars on a close to maxed out Dragonlord. Running low (1-3) skull reaper, and look specifically at my attack rolls against non-constructs (humans, hook horrors, mephits, etc.)

With 55% Fortification bypass, improved destruction on my weapon, and spamming sunder (108 DC), I'm still scoring critical hits on 15-20 less than half the time. Checking combat log, I keep seeing "Critical hit resisted".

Devs, please tell me this is an accident. Every single mobile having 100%+ Fortification? This is not fun. It's borderline infuriating.

It looks like I need to trade in my patience feat for Improved Sundering.

55% is horribly low. 110%+ is standard today.