Leveling XP is an absolute mess in epics

rabidfox

rabidfox

The People's Champion
FaceDancer said:
I would be surprised (shocked actually) to see content released for heroic/epic, or epic/legendary versions only. It would be great if they could do all three, but I guess that requires a significant amount of developer gymnastics.
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They pretty much have to do heroic every time since there's a chunk of folks that never play epic/legendary content and SSG would lose out on those sales without heroic content being offered. And they have to do legendary to cover the level cap increases and to keep content fresh at cap. All 3 would be nifty, but that's a lot of work involved and probably not worth the dev time given how the system is setup.
 
J

Jummby

Well-known member
rabidfox said:
They pretty much have to do heroic every time since there's a chunk of folks that never play epic/legendary content and SSG would lose out on those sales without heroic content being offered. And they have to do legendary to cover the level cap increases and to keep content fresh at cap. All 3 would be nifty, but that's a lot of work involved and probably not worth the dev time given how the system is setup.
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Definitely true! There are folks not even bothering with epic just to get racials.
 
JammyHammy

JammyHammy

Member
Jummby said:
Most of the heroic content already has epic versions of it. You are failing your own reading compression test.
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You are just wrong about this. As far as I'm aware, there are over 500 heroic quests, around 215 legendary quests, and 115ish epic quests. Not sure what metrics you're using, but epics have nowhere near "most of the heroic content".
 
Duneseeker

Duneseeker

I'm not that Smart
Grace said:
We have basically three tiers: heroic, epic, and legendary. The xp available to level in these tiers is entirely out of whack, and epics are absolutely the worst. Here's the basic math. Assumptions are xp for quests and raids unless otherwise noted, all difficulties on elite unless a solo quest, no sagas, no pots or other xp buffs.

Heroics:
1,926,280 total quest and raid xp available
Lives 1-3: 101.38%
Lives 4-6: 67.59%
Lives 7+: 50.69%

1,831,552 total xp quest available without raids
Lives 1-3: 101.75%
Lives 4-6: 64.26%
Lives 7+: 48.20%

Epics:
2,420,602 total quest and raid xp available
29.34%

2,257,435 total quest xp available without raids
27.36%

Legendary:
5,660,993 total quest and raid xp available
71.66%

4,730,413 total quest xp available without raids
59.88%


This is a huge discrepancy, and it matches my experience leveling. Heroics are easy to level in - I generally run low reapers for an extra xp boost through all my leveling, so that plus my other xp bonuses (30% pot, VIP, guild, etc) plus sagas mean I can choose to run the quests I like best and change it up if I get bored with no realy slowdown. It's a decent experience. When I hit epics, it's like hitting a wall. There's not nearly as much content, so I'm stuck running the same quests (some of which I don't enjoy as much), or I have to slog through a longer process (still not enjoyable) or resort to slayers (which some enjoy, but some of us want to gouge our eyes out afterwards).

The rush to raise the level cap before epics were fully fleshed out with quest content is, in my opinion, a mistake. But it's a mistake we're already on the road to, and no one is gonna turn that car around. With that in mind, my suggestions would be:

Option 1: When new content is released, instead of releasing a heroic and legendary version, release an epic and legendary version.

This allows the legendary content that will be necessary to be built up without neglecting epics. I think this would be the best scenario, as heroics really don't need as much right now.

Option 2: Significantly reduce the amount of xp needed for an epic life.

This honestly is, to me, less good because epics desperately need new content for variety. But it would be better than the situation now. It would have to be a huge reduction, though. To match the experience of a 7+ life toon in heroics currently, it would need to drop to around 4,600,000 (using the no-raids numbers, since I suspect that's most people's leveling experience).

I'd really like to see a change so epics aren't as much straight drudgery. Heroic leveling got way more fun the more content we got. I want epics to feel the same.
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This is just my 2 cents, but I usually run 2 epic lives for each Heroic ( Im almost done with Epics on my Main) and I find leveling in Epics to be pretty easy. The difference in % of xp could also be that it only takes 10 levels in Epics. My record (and I am absolutely sure their are better) is 4:07 from 20 to Cap. LoD chain to Eveningstar-Orchard and Barovia in a full group-Gianthold chain plus Saga reward-and then what ever LFM is up to cap.
 
Griglok

Griglok

Leader- The Casual Obsession (Khyber)
Fun facts from the wiki...

There are 516 quests/raids to run that are level 1-20.
There are 204 quests/raids to run that are level 31-36.
There are 126 quests/raids to run that are level 21-30.

There are only 6 levels of quest in the game that have fewer than 12 quests to run at level... those are levels 20, 25, 26, 27, 28 and 29.

There are only 4 quests in the game that are level 29.


Quest Level# of Quests
3278
845
3442
340
1833
531
631
730
1629
3129
1528
1027
1327
2127
426
3622
1121
1721
1921
1220
1420
119
919
2318
217
2417
3517
3316
2215
3012
2011
2711
269
257
286
294
 
Griglok

Griglok

Leader- The Casual Obsession (Khyber)
Grace said:
I can choose to run the quests I like best and change it up if I get bored with no realy slowdown. It's a decent experience. When I hit epics, it's like hitting a wall. There's not nearly as much content, so I'm stuck running the same quests (some of which I don't enjoy as much), or I have to slog through a longer process (still not enjoyable) or resort to slayers (which some enjoy, but some of us want to gouge our eyes out afterwards).
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Blerkington said:
The argument seems to be that if you ignore all the best sources of xp levelling becomes difficult. Something must be done immediately!
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You my bro, and I love you, but I'm not sure how you got there. Maybe because of the title of the thread?
 
I

Igognito

Well-known member
Hi all,
Disclaimer: I read 2/5 of the posts.

So my 5 cents, last life I played in a very specific way to see how it is:
My intention was Max favor (didn't achieved it but reached close).
1) did all heroics that do not have epic/leg content while I was in heroics.
2) did all heroic sagas I have access to (don't have iod, MD, lamodia, maybe a few more stuff). Saga rewards are reserved for renown at the end with a pot.
3) tried to have clear all available quests before I move to the next quest level. (Didn't follow that strictly but in general my quests list sorted by level had very few completion gaps.
4) On epic levels, I used quest which mainly hadn't done before. Exceptions were saga quests, von which I had used it to flag for the raid. I did run almost all epic quests once. I'm not certain if it was enough to cap but it was certainly close. I had to run a few legendary quests while I was epic.
5) I did run all legendary sagas I have access to just for renown.

I was on my 5th life so my toon want any powerhouse. It did felt a bit of grind but not ridiculous as there is enough content if you can do it all.
I need to point out that I did any raid I got a chance to do and that was repeating quests.

While playing the above way was an option and repeating was minimal, I do feel we need more epic quests for more options. Before the leg levels, I remember running ravenloft and I guess the others used also sharn (didn't had sharn) while in epic levels and that was good XP. But now we all feel RL, sharn is reserved for legendary levels.

Suggestions:
1) fix the transition levels. Quests that are base lvl 18+ should be rewarding different base XP when you play them as lvl 20+. Similarly for quests 28+. These quests should reward XP to legendary toons when played as 30+.
2) add more epic quests, I think there is a big gap at high epic levels. Designing new quests that are epic might not be part of the agenda, but there are still heroic quests that could get an epic version. Examples: restless islands, tungleroot, thernal, sorrowdusk and all is content that needs a refresh. It could be done like one pack per year. The problem is $$ as always.
3) new quests to come with multiple levels like time flies, or with two quest givers to have 3 base levels heroic-epic-leg.

I do believe all 3 are compatible and would improve the game.

Cheers
 
I

Ilvati

Well-known member
It seems to me that the following statements are some degree of true for most players:

1) Epic leveling is faster (real time) than heroics assuming slayer pots and slayer zones with groups.
2) Epic levels have (significantly?) less quests per level than the average
3) Accordingly it is slow to level in epics with quests only thus most people do slayer zones

Here's my leap - curious to community views:
Quests are more fun than slayers and if quests were available people would do those instead of slayers (assuming "similar" real time level speeds).

My guess is what people actually like about epic slayers is the speed to result not the gameplay experiences. Also the social experience of waiting for 4 to start is boring plus the risk of trying to start a group solo and waiting only for it not to fill? I often just do quests while we wait to fill if I'm not with a group on discord already that is planning to hit some slayers. All of this makes slayers less fun gameplay to me. That said I do them because speed....

I took this to be Grace's point but maybe that was just me. Who knows maybe this is a monetization issue since slayer pot income? I'm honestly not sure on that point.
 
S

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
Grace said:
Which is why I suggested releasing quests with legendary and epic levels instead of legendary and heroic, since heroic has a ton.
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The idea's been suggested before, but the devs indicated it's much harder to do this. In the edge case where this exists they ended up creating a 2nd independent quest such as legendary Chronoscope. It's a good idea if not for the technical issues that would either have to be addressed or worked around.

Your math is very incomplete.

There is definitely enough math to just run quests and reach cap that way as I've done that several times - in fact you will not be able to run every epic quest before reaching cap even without an xp/slayer potion. And I only mention slayer potion because you are going to get some slayer xp along the way even if your focus in on quests.

What is unique to epics is that there are a handful of quests with fast/high xp and worth repeating, challenges with fast/high xp, wilderness zones with fast/high xp (including legendary which are pretty easy for an epic character), and over 1,000,000 XP from saga rewards with just voice of master and ship buffs. There are also alot of level 18/19 quests that are often skipped during heroic leveling, but can be run at epic levels for full xp.

This is why epic lifes are such a nothing burger for most people.

And I predict if they added say 50 more quests to the game, the majority of the player base will ignore those during epic lifes for faster leveling options and instead run the content at legendary for first time reaper bonus. This will be even more true when legendary TR exists.

Once upon a time epic leveling/TR was much more difficult than now. Epic seeds didn't exist and the majority of the player base didn't run on elite meaning their commendation payout was very low. Epic Boss hp in low epics was triple or even more what it is now. There were fewer wilderness zones with fast/high xp.

So while I understand the desire for more epic content - ignoring all the other sources of epic good epic xp isn't right.

Because at the end of the day - it's epic xp that gets you from 20-30 and not just quests. And yeah people gravitated towards optimal leveling paths with slayer and xp potions because that significantly reduces the time it takes to get to 30, but it's not mandatory. It's just faster. That's a big part of SSG's monetization approach - selling time savings.
 
Q

Quartis

Well-known member
Sarlona Raiding said:
The idea's been suggested before, but the devs indicated it's much harder to do this. In the edge case where this exists they ended up creating a 2nd independent quest such as legendary Chronoscope. It's a good idea if not for the technical issues that would either have to be addressed or worked around.
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They probably dont do hero/epic/legend that often, because with the current quests system this would create 2 quests and that would give favor twice.
 
S

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
Bricks said:
If you don't like doing slayers, and want to save legendary quests for decent reaper xp, then the low selection of 20-29 quests get boring real fast I think is the point of the op.
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If you want to run each quest once for favor while trying to avoid repeats...

If you run only the heroic quests that don't have epic/legendary version there isn't enough heroic xp to get to 3.9MM XP. You literally have to run quests with epic/legendary equivalents to get there without an xp pot. Heroics is where you get forced into running quests you may run again at higher levels.

If you then run all the epic quests from 20-30 you will get to 30 before finishing all the quests. No XP potion is needed. As a result when running for favor I often shift certain epic quests to heroic because there is more xp than needed at epic levels, but not at enough at heroic levels if you focus on quests only available at heroic.

This leaves all the legendary quests to run for the first time at legendary while maxing rxp, but avoiding repeats.

It's definitely true that there are fewer quests at each epic level. It's also true that fewer quests are needed to level up during epic levels.

Additionally SSG added a whole bunch of quests that can be done during epic levels by allowing us to run 18/19s on reaper during epic levels. Many of those 18s/19s don't have epic or legendary equivalents such as House C, Amarath, Eveningstar, Inspired Quarter. If going for favor I run those at heroic levels because there isn't enough heroic-only quests to get to level cap as it is.
 
D

Driaza

Asker of Questions
While there are fewer quests i find

1-20 slow and boring
20-30 goes fast especially if you throw in slayers/ rares in Orchard/ Barovia
30-34 was pretty quick

But i have been living in the 20-30 loop on an alt mainly for a while now + cap raids on main and healer
 
B

Blunt Hackett

Well-known member
Imagine any other D&D game not providing adequate level appropriate adventures. Running late Heroic and Legendary content to compensate is coping. It's not a valid rebuttal to the issue beyond being advice for that coping.

Sadly, this dumb content decision isn't likely to be reversed. It's about as dead a horse as is @Dandonk's monster manuals. I hope it will at least be expanded once we're finally at level 40 content. However, I suspect they'll just keep releasing Heroic and level 40 quests for a while even then.
 
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