PraetorPlato
Well-known member
I think you'll find that that's different people.........
List of Current S-tier builds...
- Thread starter RocknRolla
- Start date
rabidfox
The People's Champion
It all starts with figuring out what's fun. Then figuring out how to push that playstyle/class/etc. to its limits with gear and build. The OP gave zero foundation other than "most effective build(s)" which is a limited metric. Best for heroic leveling? Epic leveling? Running easier raids? Running high skull quests? High skull raids? Soloing low skull quests? Soloing higher skull quests? Soloing raids? Healing? Tanking? Support? Melee? Ranged? Nuker caster? DC caster? Raw DPS? Well-rounded? The builds all change around based off that, but what a person enjoys is still the core of everything. Unless the OP says what they enjoy, they'll get a hundred answers that are true and equally false depending the goals and desires the person running any build suggested. I linked my builds, but they could hold zero value for what OP wants. I play to have fun, the builds and playstyles I like developed alongside that.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Nope. Its the same people.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
Well, as one of the build-matters people in the other thread, I will say that builds matter! (but it depends on what role you're building for what builds are most effective, because the whole thing that makes a build effective is building for very specific goals)
I don't think the devs are particularly concerned about about "OP" builds. I think people are convinced that the developers care about things being perfectly balanced across all builds, which... no? If that was the case, you wouldn't have feat choices, you would just have a single progression pathway. Now, there are some things which might cross the line into *exploits*, which I'm sure the devs do actually care about.
I think, though, the developers do feel pressure from people who *think* builds are "OP" (in a primarily PvE game, which people can play more or less entirely solo) who then write long rants about "X should be nerfed" and "Y should be nerfed". But those people are usually just spouting hot air. I've sat down and run actual numbers on things and people just shrug it off, even when it proves mathematically that a feature is not as powerful (or as weak) as they think it is. Now, I assume developers can see that, for sure. They have access to things that I don't with regards to logs and completion times and so on that, while not perfect metrics, can help assess things across different builds in ways I simply can't around a ton of soft factors, though I don't know how robust the logging is.
But in the end, it doesn't matter- if the community begins to repeat that certain things are overpowered, even if that's not what happens in actual play, because someone who thinks they're running The Best Legit Build which anything stronger than their build is clearly cheesy OP shenanigans is in a dungeon and has their sensitive ego bruised by someone getting more kills or tanking a hit they can't or having crowd control which they didn't get or just having more fun than they do, it gets shouted and repeated on the forums. Part of the reason why some balancing efforts in the past have felt heavyhanded or inaccurate to the community is because either they're responding to a problem that doesn't exist, so actually fixing it is impossible because there's no problem and any nerf is too strong or they're looking at logs that show an actual overperforming feature and adjusting that instead of what people have gotten into a frenzy over.
However, the only argument for "strong" builds making the game worse depend on either the game being balanced around outlier builds or someone's fun being ruined if someone else can do something they can't. And some of that is fair- I mean, look at the spike between "old" and "new" heroic content, for example, there's an era where heroic content is significantly more difficult than even the epic versions because of poor heroic balancing around... power creep? Nver actually figured that one out. But unfortunately most of it just feels like someone looking at someone else having fun and not liking it, or feeling like they have to play an optimized build to have fun which simply isn't true and I've enjoyed a lot of my more interesting builds more than cookie cutter "optimized" builds. While exploit/bug fixes are probably fine- after all, there is a difference between "strong" and "broken", even if it might mean for a weaker build- reactionary nerfs don't feel great and they almost always stem from forumites, and often seem to be based on very subjective comparisons between characters instead of actual experience- "Casters are OP" is a common thread, but you usually don't see anyone complaining about the average caster build, just the ones that involve a lot of complex build crafting and itemization.
I think, though, the developers do feel pressure from people who *think* builds are "OP" (in a primarily PvE game, which people can play more or less entirely solo) who then write long rants about "X should be nerfed" and "Y should be nerfed". But those people are usually just spouting hot air. I've sat down and run actual numbers on things and people just shrug it off, even when it proves mathematically that a feature is not as powerful (or as weak) as they think it is. Now, I assume developers can see that, for sure. They have access to things that I don't with regards to logs and completion times and so on that, while not perfect metrics, can help assess things across different builds in ways I simply can't around a ton of soft factors, though I don't know how robust the logging is.
But in the end, it doesn't matter- if the community begins to repeat that certain things are overpowered, even if that's not what happens in actual play, because someone who thinks they're running The Best Legit Build which anything stronger than their build is clearly cheesy OP shenanigans is in a dungeon and has their sensitive ego bruised by someone getting more kills or tanking a hit they can't or having crowd control which they didn't get or just having more fun than they do, it gets shouted and repeated on the forums. Part of the reason why some balancing efforts in the past have felt heavyhanded or inaccurate to the community is because either they're responding to a problem that doesn't exist, so actually fixing it is impossible because there's no problem and any nerf is too strong or they're looking at logs that show an actual overperforming feature and adjusting that instead of what people have gotten into a frenzy over.
However, the only argument for "strong" builds making the game worse depend on either the game being balanced around outlier builds or someone's fun being ruined if someone else can do something they can't. And some of that is fair- I mean, look at the spike between "old" and "new" heroic content, for example, there's an era where heroic content is significantly more difficult than even the epic versions because of poor heroic balancing around... power creep? Nver actually figured that one out. But unfortunately most of it just feels like someone looking at someone else having fun and not liking it, or feeling like they have to play an optimized build to have fun which simply isn't true and I've enjoyed a lot of my more interesting builds more than cookie cutter "optimized" builds. While exploit/bug fixes are probably fine- after all, there is a difference between "strong" and "broken", even if it might mean for a weaker build- reactionary nerfs don't feel great and they almost always stem from forumites, and often seem to be based on very subjective comparisons between characters instead of actual experience- "Casters are OP" is a common thread, but you usually don't see anyone complaining about the average caster build, just the ones that involve a lot of complex build crafting and itemization.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
This. Voice of wisdom. ?
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
That is not the only argument. Personally I think a much stronger argument is that having a few OP build outliers limits character customizaton.
Sturmbb
Well-known member
Unfortunately this is very true. I have seen streamers showing extremely effecient builds and than for SSG to go ahead and nerf them. The absolute best advice i can give, is to work the best builds out yourself (which using iconics is not hard to do). Than never tell anyone about them, so they are not nerfed. I have some fantastic builds i have created over the years in Hardcore (so there extremely 1st life friendly). But there iis no way i am going to publicize them, as i do not want the risk of them being nerfed.
Sturmbb
Well-known member
I have seen it wiith my own eyes, over the years. Yes people do post builds and they do not get nerfed, but i have seen the other side of the coin. In fact i was running a build similar to a streamer before it was nerfed. I didn't complain i just used it as a lesson for future builds i came up with. The best thing about this game is the character creator. I really don't believe there is any other game that has such a great variety of builds. I love coming up wiith new builds,playstyles and optimizing my build. I just don't want to take the risk of posting them, for the chance of them being nerfed.
Guntango
Well-known member
Talk for the sake of speaking; it's better to breathe air than not.
Your suggestion is to have an infinite number of builds that all perform best?
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Your suggestion is to have one OP build and the rest is F-tier flavour builds?
As an enjoyer of character customization I like to have many mechanics and number paths to strong builds and not only flavour/cosmetic choices.
Guntango
Well-known member
no u
Since you asked so nicely, I think the game is in a great spot. A few builds can be considered for each S-tier Melee, S-tier Ranged, S-tier DC Caster, and S-tier Healer. There's only one missing: Nuker.
You're right about one thing, though: F-tier is for Flavor. Hold the u.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
Nobody discusses the real imbalance: fighter tank OP. 
Guntango
Well-known member
Meh. Barb still cooler.Nobody discusses the real imbalance: fighter tank OP.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Likewise. I have no idea at all what you think we disagree on. None.
Guntango
Well-known member
Look up for answers to your questions.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Reread the question.
Last edited:
Except no one forces you to play strong builds. There's a logical fallacy there that people *have* to play OP builds which is only true if the game is balanced around it. Now, it does mean that certain players will run only those builds, but it's not actually a limit on character customization. It does introduce an opportunity cost, but for most builds in DDO, that opportunity cost actually isn't that big- maybe a skull or two on Reaper, if you're soloing. There's this idea that OP builds are must picks but I've never seen anyone give a compelling reason why some of the builds they cite as OP are actually bad for game health because most of them are "I can't do this on *my* build" complaints, which clearly means not everyone is playing the OP builds.
I also suspect that a lot of the people who see a build and call it OP are just missing things entirely- someone could have best in slot items, full heroic, racial and epic completionist, +8 supreme tomes, maxed out guild buffs and all kinds of other power boosts that make that same build not viable for a first life free to play newbie, which means that builds sometimes get targeted not because the build itself is strong but the players running them have both a ton of other buffs and tons of game knowledge.
The problem is that a lot of people will only try builds they think will do well, which could be fixed by making resetting builds more accessible. Even in a pretty optimized grind you're going to be locked into a build for, like, what, a dozen hours at least of leveling if you want to get out to another build via TR/ER? If lesser reincarnations were cheaper, people would fell more freedom to experiment and play with interesting builds.
Now, I can see a context where you're in a toxic raid group that demands you play maxed out specialized OP builds or something, but at that point I'd say you've missed the point of playing a game. If you're not having fun because someone is telling you how to play, that's a problem with who you're playing with, not the builds. But almost all DDO content is pretty easy with most builds or even just veteran characters with tons of past lives and the like. It's entirely how people play the game (maxing out reaper skulls and living for the grind) that limits people to "OP builds" and that's not a design issue with the game, per se, as much as a product of players having strong opinions. I love good builds, don't get me wrong, but I've never seen someone hit higher numbers in a dungeon or clear stuff easily while I'm struggling and say "Welp, guess I shouldn't enjoy this build."
