Duneseeker
Well-known member
Thank you for responding. Looking forward to hitting cap with your build.
Lominal's R10 and Raid build repository
- Thread starter Lominal
- Start date
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
It gets complicated fast when you add stuff that scales with one or the other (mostly RP, although technically Paranoia - but even the +SA from Ethereal scales with RP lol). Like a build using FS strike gains additional Sonic damage from RP (at 200% scaling) which isn't reflected in that simple formula.
Also the proportions are different at different parts of the investment/boost curve - a 200 RP build gaining +15 RP is getting +5% more from that, whereas a 500 RP build gets only half as much (+2.5%) from the same +15 RP (in the case of 100% scaling). With 200% scaling, however, 415/400 vs 1115/1100 = 3.75% vs 1.36%, which is about a third as much.
For me I tend to make a spreadsheet for my character, modeling base damage, crits, procs, active attacks, attack patterns, etc - and afterwards it's easy to change out a few variables (like Arborea vs Ethereal) and see the estimated results. Definitely complex and cumbersome though.
The main three options are to model your character to whatever degree of accuracy you prefer, source: "trust me bro", or just pick your favorite - at the end of the day they're both +some damage, and neither will make or break your character. Even skipping them won't hurt much, losing 2-5% DPS just isn't that noticeable (whereas something like Mechanus reconstruct is very noticeable).
handofgood
Active member
Regarding the swf paly build . Don’t you think the 23% bash chance from the gem is an overkill? It locks a valuable(?) gear slot and assuming a swf with ~180 APM ( 40 hasted 20 not hasted ) hits 3 times a sec , when shield bash has 1 ICD having 35% to shield bash should do the work. ( 20 from feat 15 from ED)
woq
Well-known member
The hardest thing about this type of thinking is that you can only make that decision once per build before it becomes a lot of damage and very noticeable.
Losing curses? ahhh, its ok.
Losing mythic boosts? Ahh, np.
Losing reaper boosts? Well, I just don't have them.
...
Skipping arborea? Well I already have a lot of power...
Well it's just an alt, I don't need set augments..
...
Couple choices after: we are looking at a 290 power build with no imbues and no sneaks instead of a 370 power build and suddenly its quite the difference. ****** DDO
Frantik
Well-known member
Are you sure? The amount of damage a ranged weapon does is effected by ranged power using factor = (100+RP)/100.
For a build with 200 RP, this factor is x3, and for a build with 500 RP this factor is x6.
If we now add a further 15 RP to both builds, the factors become:
- (100+215)/100 = 3.15
- (100+515)/100 = 6.15
What I believe you are confusing is the importance of added damage and percentage added damage. We shouldn't care about percentage added damage when the formula is linear so all increments have the same relative impact.
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SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
(100+215)/100 = 3.15Are you sure? The amount of damage a ranged weapon does is effected by ranged power using factor = (100+RP)/100.
For a build with 200 RP, this factor is x3, and for a build with 500 RP this factor is x6.
If we now add a further 15 RP to both builds, the factors become:
unless i have got that wrong
- (100+215)/100 = 3.15
- (100+515)/100 = 6.15
What I believe you are confusing is the importance of added damage and percentage added damage. We shouldn't care about percentage added damage when the formula is linear so all increments have the same relative impact.
(100+200)/100 = 3.00
3.15/3.00 = 1.050, or 105%, or +5.0% DPS
(100+515)/100 = 6.15
(100+500)/100 = 6.00
6.15/6.00 = 1.025, or 102.5%, or +2.5% DPS
5.0% / 2.5% = 2x.
Adding +15 RP is twice as impactful for a build with 200 RP compared to a build with 500 RP (for stuff scaling at 100% RP). But yes, it does add the same flat damage if all other factors are equal.
An easy real-life comparison is getting a $1/hour raise when you make $5/hour vs getting the same $1/hour raise when you make $100/hour. Sure, it's the same extra money per year, but one person's life is impacted far more than the other.
I would rather have a 290 power build contributing in my raid than a 370 power soulstone. If you're dropping Arborea for nothing, and not cursing for no reason, and not putting set augments on in favor of Swim diamonds sure, it's probably a mistake. If you are alive because of e.g. Mechanus you'll presumably be putting out more DPS than a dead build with Arborea. YMMV.
If you're pushing R10 raids you should have specific design goals which are not reflected in the rest of DDO (besides, getting 20% tankier or having self-healing does nothing if you get oneshot). For everything else, there are plenty of reasons to give up small amounts of power even more than once lol. You can smash R10 quests and R1 raids just fine without curses, mythic/reaper boosts, arborea, or set augments (even if you will generally clear faster with those things).
It's the same reason I recommend Shuriken builds to use Self Defense for questing, IAF is usually just 10 RP (unless you're clearing really slowly), whereas +25% HP does help with not dying sometimes.
You have to analyze each individual decision as well as the overall end result lol. For me I tend to spreadsheet everything and compare against benchmarks.
Lominal
Well-known member
There aren't any strong trinkets. The best options that I've used on other melees are heartshard (5% hp won't matter that much, and its rare) or periapt of str (which is basically gem + q seeker and a solar slot). Q seeker is massively outclassed by raven/might set (6 sets for 2 items), and the likelihood of having a good boosted version of heart shard is extremely low compared to the ability to re-roll gems.
As for the shield bashing- more is always better. The average time between bashes is 1s+the expected number of attacks to proc the bash (swf is 2.1-2.7 att/sec depending on haste boost). This would put 35% at about 25 bashes/min, and 50% at 30. I've personally found the sweet spot its much higher (70-80 ) but accessing that much shield bashing would require substantial investment that would be better spent elsewhere.
There is no reality in a raid where a 290 MP build lives where a build with 370 would die. The delta between the defences gained from losing that much MP don't change anything defensively.
I try to post builds that endgame players would actually use, not flavour builds that need to be carried through reapers and r1 raids. The benchmark for a reasonable melee dps is currently around 350MP. This is just the reality of the game's current state.
Yes, but having to spent plat/AS twice every time you raid isn't worth it for 99% of players. "Forgetting" 60 RP is going to be a substantial (10%) dps loss, and raid dps matter infinitely more than the occasional r10 death.
2-5% dps difference is not "small". Recent raids have 0 downtime currently for dps, so if every dps lost 5%, time goes up 6%. It's not a lot but it would take a 30 min raid up to 31.5 minutes (more chance to die, healers out of SP, failing mechanics). Remove another 5%? now we're at 33.5 mins. DDO is a game of small increments, 2-5% is not small.
That said, the delta from Arborea to ethereal on shuri specifically is definitely less than 1% (I think it came in at like 0.3%). Arborea is better, but barely. On any build except shuri (I think bow might get enouh RP to fit here as well, but bow dps is also heavily tied to crits so...would need testing) its gonna be large enough that Arborea is the clear winner.
Your math manipulation is correct but misleading. Frantik is more correct on how it actually effects the game. More range power adds damage, that damage is used to take monsters to zero hit points. The percentage of the boost compared to your existing damage is irrelevant. If a monster has 100k hit points, adding more damage kills it quicker. The base damage is what matters, not what percentage it gave you compared to what you already did.
I often hear the Self Defense vs. IAF for a shuri thrower. Always throwing in the "when questing" caveat. Choosing Self Defense is weak, it is a crutch. You are a ranged character. If you want to survive longer, kill the mobs faster. There are plenty of other sources to increase hit points without losing 10 RP with a potential 50 on top of that against bosses or high HP mobs. If you are ranged, your positioning is more important to your survivability than your hit points. If you keep dying, play better. It sounds mean or cliche, but in this circumstance, it is the correct response. Nerfing your damage for a couple hundred extra hit points makes no sense.
DDO does have some minimum hit point expectations and some defensive expectations for every character. Generally these expectations can be geared for. It is very rare that you need to sacrifice damage in feats, enhancements, and filigrees to hit these expectations. But once your character is able to hit these expectations, do your job, put everything else into damage.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Looking at your 100k HP enemy:
If you have 1k DPS and add +2k, you kill it in 33s instead of 100s
If you have 10k DPS and add +2k, you kill it in 8.3s instead of 10s
If you have 50k DPS and add +2k, you kill it in 1.92s instead of 2s
There's an obvious difference there in how much adding flat damage does lol. You can also use this to judge your cc and defense evaluations - cc is a lot more valuable to the low DPS build (a tank in high skulls? Idk), but I personally would be picking survivability vs 0.08s faster kill time if my survivability was in question. Realistically it's going to be more granular, like figuring out if you can decrease the number of hits to kill an enemy mob - if they're dying in 5 hits, does adding X DPS allow me to kill them in 4 hits? If not, it's meaningless outside of bosses. And for bosses, it's a percentage again - "wow I kill this boss in 17 seconds instead of 18, saving me 1s per quest!"
I mean, dump Con and go for it. Just get good, don't take damage. If you're fully stacking IAF against trash mobs, skill issue - you should be killing mobs faster than that. If you're only getting a couple hundred extra HP you need a better gaming chair.
If you're bringing a tank, your survivability is largely meaningless esp for questing. If you're not, then presumably there are sometimes enemies that can hit you (with spells, etc). If you're always surviving those, get more DPS. If you're never surviving, get more survivable. Most people are somewhere in the middle, where sometimes you die (generally to specific things like dot stacks, horrid wilting, etc etc). For those, it's tradeoffs. Being able to accurately assess the value of a tradeoff is important.
For people getting into R10 questing and raiding (the ones reading this thread, presumably) it's disingenuous to push damage as the always-correct choice. I have thrown thousands of rezzes in raids to people with more damage than survivability.
There are also plenty of players I would suggest Self Defense over IAF even for raiding to, many of whom I've run R10's and raids with. Health problems, aging, low attention span, IRL distractions - these are all factors that push the scales more towards survivability (although you get plenty of time to deal with IRL stuff as a soulstone, so YMMV).
Sure, once you're not dying it's time to max damage - but there's no threshold of "if you have 250 PRR you never die" that covers all of DDO. Different players will have different expectations, and judging build/gearing/playstyle choices to fit those expectations is important.
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
It's why IAF relevant only for endgame R10 raiders. In usual questing, solo specifically, you never have possibility to build enough stacks to be meaningful amount exclude boss fight while epic moment active. Self Defense, other hand, works always.
Exactly.
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What kind of basement math examples are these? We are talking about the value of adding 10-60 Ranged power. You have to know how ridiculous your time to kill examples are. I also didn't say to dump con and also stated there are some minimum hit point and defense expectations. You then sum it up that you have rezzed more people built for damage instead of survivability? Really, you take a poll on someone's DPS when you rez them? Or you just assume because they led the kill count? That's cool, just make up nonsense instead. That will help prove your point. If you are rezzing so many people then healer is probably a good place for you to play, keep on doing that and you don't have to worry about damage vs. survivability. Your promotion of people building bad characters is cluttering up an otherwise great thread. I am done responding to you, feel free to PM me more meaningless math examples if you feel a need.
As for this thread in general, Lominal has performed a fantastic service to the community compiling these R10 builds. For anyone that wants to play in R10 but doesn't know what is needed, this is the perfect place to start.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
HP divided by DPS = time to kill, the math is actually really simple. Perhaps consider an algebra course? You provided the HP number that I used in those calculations.
Or if you mean that 50k DPS is ridiculous, there's a lot of the game ahead of you!
"If you keep dying, play better."
Just dump the HP and don't die lmao, easy.
+25% HP is a big percentage towards reaching whatever minimum HP standard you expect. There are minimum DPS expectations too for being a DPS in R10, but +10 RP is a significantly smaller percentage of that.
Level split, set bonuses, HP - these are easy fast metrics to get a solid grasp of someone's build. I can absolutely eyeball DPS of a given raider with pretty decent accuracy
if you spend some time studying builds you too will be able to do this!It's also pretty easy when you're in discord with them and can ask, although that's only sometimes the case.
Kill count is largely unrelated to DPS in most raids. Unless you think a DC Wizard is highest DPS? Weird metric to measure by.
For questing it's also often unrelated to DPS - last hits and fast movement speed are more important than DPS for KC there as well.
And to answer your overall question generally no - the highest DPS players are usually quite experienced and not the ones dying (regardless of build choices). Doesn't mean someone looking at a R10/Raid build thread should follow their example exactly.
If you're not able to rez people as an endgame character try investing in UMD! It's pretty easy to get no-fail numbers for rez scrolls especially on a multi-life character. If you're not rezzing people you probably should be, an alive player is usually going to have more output than the 3s or whatever of your time it takes to rez them.
Sure, someone else can do it and if you have someone for that neat! But I've lead and joined very many non-ideal raid groups, as well as played healer, tank, DPS, DC, and all the rest.
That's cool, I'm responding for others reading this thread.
Dead DPS toons output no DPS. For this reason it's worth building towards staying alive on your path to outputting max DPS.
Very few people are doing R10 raid pushes, while R10 quests pretty much everyone does, whether as a carry or just the carried. Spartan is just pointing out that most builds have interesting levers that you can customize to maximize your efficiency in the content/style that you play, the biggest of which is the survivability vs dps tradeoff.
Also I think these guides should be taken as very helpful build starting points, but in the end people should tweak them to be more effective for them, the content they play, and what is available to their character. With curses, gear availability, and diversity in available racial/reaper points, very few people will replicate the builds exactly. We should also be highlighting relevant choices people can make, and not narrowly focus on purely maximizing dps, as if we were, the vast majority of the builds in the guides are not really optimal.
Also I think these guides should be taken as very helpful build starting points, but in the end people should tweak them to be more effective for them, the content they play, and what is available to their character. With curses, gear availability, and diversity in available racial/reaper points, very few people will replicate the builds exactly. We should also be highlighting relevant choices people can make, and not narrowly focus on purely maximizing dps, as if we were, the vast majority of the builds in the guides are not really optimal.
Duneseeker
Well-known member
Hey Lominal. So Im assuming the DS on the Trinket is Defense: Sheltering. I cannot for the life of me figure out what the Profane DS is on the Orb.
Lominal
Well-known member
Doublestrike, though you can augment it via an IoD topaz.
Lominal
Well-known member
I think it might be worth adding this post (here for now, maybe to the doc later) to discuss defences on dps.
First and foremost, when a top tier player dies, and it's typically to things beyond their control (champ crits, Spell abs swaps not registering, no heals, etc). For ranged dps, in r10s you shouldn't get hit. Deflect arrows, tumbling, spell absorbs, safe spots exist and the best players utilize them.
As much as people will say its fine to lose some dps for defence, the question is does the new defence actually keep you alive where your old defence wouldn't. I'll have to pick a balance point for this discussion and i'll chose r10, and use modern content like lammordia or Myth drannor. I'll use the numbers I had on my shuriken the last time I played on it, and use the specific example of the % Hp. On that toon, my hp would go from 3100->3800 for a gain on 700. Factoring unconcious range (I'll assume group play with a decent healer), I go from 3300->4000. Players should substitute their own number here through this example, as the situation may change
Does this change from hp prevent a 1 shot? Short answer, no. There are no mobs in MD or lammordia that hit in that range (3300-4000) on the defences of the monk I posted. Champ crits tend to be higher, auto attacks hit around 3k at worst (lammordia dooms are ~ 2.8), and spells are higher(wilting/disintigrate/unholy blight/etc) or lower.
Does this change increase the number of hits to die? Mostly no. Magical damage in this category is entirely DoT's,lammordian alch+lock and frost lance. Dot's will kill you if you take 2 full stiacks without a healer, and max stacks will never kill you. Alch/lock will 2 shot you and that isnt changing with the extra hp. Frost lance does no damage.On the physical side, youre going from getting 2 shot -> 2 shot. Maybe in older content you might find that the hp matters, but not MD or lammordia.
This is why I don't think its worth taking. The extra hp gives the illusion of more defence, but isnt functionally better. losing 10% dps in raids isnt worth that. Feel fre to sub in your own numbers, but the conclusion will likely be similar.
First and foremost, when a top tier player dies, and it's typically to things beyond their control (champ crits, Spell abs swaps not registering, no heals, etc). For ranged dps, in r10s you shouldn't get hit. Deflect arrows, tumbling, spell absorbs, safe spots exist and the best players utilize them.
As much as people will say its fine to lose some dps for defence, the question is does the new defence actually keep you alive where your old defence wouldn't. I'll have to pick a balance point for this discussion and i'll chose r10, and use modern content like lammordia or Myth drannor. I'll use the numbers I had on my shuriken the last time I played on it, and use the specific example of the % Hp. On that toon, my hp would go from 3100->3800 for a gain on 700. Factoring unconcious range (I'll assume group play with a decent healer), I go from 3300->4000. Players should substitute their own number here through this example, as the situation may change
Does this change from hp prevent a 1 shot? Short answer, no. There are no mobs in MD or lammordia that hit in that range (3300-4000) on the defences of the monk I posted. Champ crits tend to be higher, auto attacks hit around 3k at worst (lammordia dooms are ~ 2.8), and spells are higher(wilting/disintigrate/unholy blight/etc) or lower.
Does this change increase the number of hits to die? Mostly no. Magical damage in this category is entirely DoT's,lammordian alch+lock and frost lance. Dot's will kill you if you take 2 full stiacks without a healer, and max stacks will never kill you. Alch/lock will 2 shot you and that isnt changing with the extra hp. Frost lance does no damage.On the physical side, youre going from getting 2 shot -> 2 shot. Maybe in older content you might find that the hp matters, but not MD or lammordia.
This is why I don't think its worth taking. The extra hp gives the illusion of more defence, but isnt functionally better. losing 10% dps in raids isnt worth that. Feel fre to sub in your own numbers, but the conclusion will likely be similar.
I would never advocate for taking defenses over dps if you are already staying alive, but I’ve seen the diversity in skill in enough pug raids to not have a hard stance on it.
If you don’t have trouble staying alive in the content you do, take the dps option. If you do, I don’t think it’s that controversial to consider trading dps for defenses. For ranged you are right in that they shouldn’t be taking damage/aggro, but people struggling with staying alive are the same people that haven’t maxed -threat, or other aspects of a build, or even maybe they have a part time tank that can’t quite land intims.
I do dps tradeoffs in builds all the time because I want to be able to solo r10 quests. That’s not necessarily an objective everyone tries to meet, and despite the tradeoffs I know I will still be in the top 1-3 dps of most pug raids due to other factors. ToN is usually a pretty fun dps check against the other group that takes the portals, and you develop a feel for DPS differences between different builds.
If you don’t have trouble staying alive in the content you do, take the dps option. If you do, I don’t think it’s that controversial to consider trading dps for defenses. For ranged you are right in that they shouldn’t be taking damage/aggro, but people struggling with staying alive are the same people that haven’t maxed -threat, or other aspects of a build, or even maybe they have a part time tank that can’t quite land intims.
I do dps tradeoffs in builds all the time because I want to be able to solo r10 quests. That’s not necessarily an objective everyone tries to meet, and despite the tradeoffs I know I will still be in the top 1-3 dps of most pug raids due to other factors. ToN is usually a pretty fun dps check against the other group that takes the portals, and you develop a feel for DPS differences between different builds.
question on your swf pall
The lack of the class based leap means we take the spring attack line. Paladin casts so many buff spells, quicken feels necessary. The lack of a free class leap or racial leap means we will want the spring attack line.
you say this but then you now have the cleaves - spring not worth it now?
The lack of the class based leap means we take the spring attack line. Paladin casts so many buff spells, quicken feels necessary. The lack of a free class leap or racial leap means we will want the spring attack line.
you say this but then you now have the cleaves - spring not worth it now?
Lominal
Well-known member
Take the mist stalker dark gift. played around with different versions, found the cleaves were the best use of the feats + frees up the AP for other things in kotc