Make Pure Classes Great Again

[Shear-buckler]

Builds being posted aren't necessarily builds being played. But yeah that's why I said "arguably"

Yeah, Im just adding to your point.

 

[Jaspar]

But most classes don't get anything after 12, really. And the ones that do, it's not all that important (monks and diamond soul, timeless body, etc, for instance)
But again... I don't see WHY we would want to incentivize pure class builds more than what they already are... each a solid chassis upon which someone can build an excellent class.

Dear SSG. Please dont touch the things I dont like, but do buff the things I do like. Because Im selfish like that.

Builds being posted aren't necessarily builds being played. But yeah that's why I said "arguably"

I dont recall ever seeing non pure Barbs, other than the 1 level splashes, or maybe an unusual tank build from time to time. Maybe the multi-class Barbs all play when Im not on.

 

[Anurakh]

I dunno... as someone who likes playing around and making multi-class builds, I think for the most part, the balance is just right. If there were any less benefit to multiclassing, I wouldn't even bother.
Your inability to clarify what the discrepancy is, what your goal discrepancy is, etc... seems telling.
At most, you're asking for what here? 20 MP? +2 imbue dice? Spread out across a couple Core 5 and 6s?

Didn't that literally already happen?

My inability? Or rather, your inability to understand? Read on, I've made things very clear.

 

[Quartis]

Ranger/DH needs more/good spells in the spell book, make them level 3/4 than there is more reason to get ranger beyond level 11.

expand the use of multiclass to spellcasting, by getting rid of class specific caster levels. Having less high lvl spells is punishing enough, ddo is a super hero game after all in which everone can do almost everything and beats up dozens of trash mobs without sweating.

 

[Anurakh]

Dear SSG. Please dont touch the things I dont like, but do buff the things I do like. Because Im selfish like that.



I dont recall ever seeing non pure Barbs, other than the 1 level splashes, or maybe an unusual tank build from time to time. Maybe the multi-class Barbs all play when Im not on.

Have you ever seen barbarian bear druids? They're not currently in fashion due to the huge power of SWF and monks, but they're still played.

A barbarian with a splash of two levels from other classes (1fvs 1 warlock, for example) is a multiclass.

But the barbarian is one of the few weapon user classes that's also a good as pure class. This isn't the case for most classes.

Not all classes need to be modified, nor do all classes need the same kind of support (with the ranger, for example, I'd update its spell list before changing anything else, just in case it doesn't need more). What Artificer needs most is that gishes to be viable in the end game; if they were, people who wanted to use spells for CC would choose pure, and people who want pure damage would multiclass. Other classes need an upgrade in their capstones, which are very bad.

But people who simply want no buffs for things they don't play aren't going to want to hear any argument, no matter how well-founded.

Of course, these same people who don't want buffs for things they don't play don't mind obvious multiclass exploits like how Arcane Warrior works.

 

[Bobbryan2]

Dear SSG. Please dont touch the things I dont like, but do buff the things I do like. Because Im selfish like that.

How in the world is this a response to me?

 

[Jaspar]

Have you ever seen barbarian bear druids? They're not currently in fashion due to the huge power of SWF and monks, but they're still played.

A barbarian with a splash of two levels from other classes (1fvs 1 warlock, for example) is a multiclass.

But the barbarian is one of the few weapon user classes that's also a good as pure class. This isn't the case for most classes.

Not all classes need to be modified, nor do all classes need the same kind of support (with the ranger, for example, I'd update its spell list before changing anything else, just in case it doesn't need more). What Artificer needs most is that gishes to be viable in the end game; if they were, people who wanted to use spells for CC would choose pure, and people who want pure damage would multiclass. Other classes need an upgrade in their capstones, which are very bad.

But people who simply want no buffs for things they don't play aren't going to want to hear any argument, no matter how well-founded.

Of course, these same people who don't want buffs for things they don't play don't mind obvious multiclass exploits like how Arcane Warrior works.

15 Druid 5 DL is common for bear druids. Have done it myself a few times and its a LOT of fun. For Bearbarians its probably as common to see a Druid life as a Barbarian life, but also, Im not sure it really counts as a Barbarian even if youre mostly Barbarian given its really only for Greater Rage. You can get the rest of the Barbarian benefits with far more Druid levels.

How in the world is this a response to me?

Youre saying there is no need to incentivise pure classes as if they are just fine. They arent fine. There are a bunch of good pure caster builds but when it comes to ranged and melee its overwhelmingly better to go multi-class.

And this can be fixed with a few tweaks to the level 18 and level 20 cores for the classes where going pure puts you way behind the multi-class builds.

 

[Bobbryan2]

Youre saying there is no need to incentivise pure classes as if they are just fine. They arent fine. There are a bunch of good pure caster builds but when it comes to ranged and melee its overwhelmingly better to go multi-class.

And this can be fixed with a few tweaks to the level 18 and level 20 cores for the classes where going pure puts you way behind the multi-class builds.

They are just fine, tho.
Everyone keeps saying they're not fine. The lvl 18 and 20 cores are good for the most part.

Disagreeing with you that they're not powerful is not the same as saying devs should only work on what I want them to work on. It's saying that the balance is fine right now, and any attempt to tweak it is likely to cause more harm than good.

It mostly feels like people on the forums don't want to *feel* like they're missing out on power by multiclassing. FOMO is no reason to change game systems.

 

[Anurakh]

15 Druid 5 DL is common for bear druids. Have done it myself a few times and its a LOT of fun. For Bearbarians its probably as common to see a Druid life as a Barbarian life, but also, Im not sure it really counts as a Barbarian even if youre mostly Barbarian given its really only for Greater Rage. You can get the rest of the Barbarian benefits with far more Druid levels.

Of course they count as barbarian multiclasses. Barbs're being used in multiclassing to gain a class ability. Obviously, the druid provides the bear, which is the backbone of this build, but most bear builds are multiclassed, with barbarian being one of the classes chosen to enhance the build.

But yes, DL is so OP and versatile that it has displaced many older builds.

Youre saying there is no need to incentivise pure classes as if they are just fine. They arent fine. There are a bunch of good pure caster builds but when it comes to ranged and melee its overwhelmingly better to go multi-class.

And this can be fixed with a few tweaks to the level 18 and level 20 cores for the classes where going pure puts you way behind the multi-class builds.

+1

 

[Bobbryan2]

There are a few places where I actually think there *could* be some adjustments.


I think 20 Warlock could use some more melee power in the ES tree.
I think that War Soul and War Priest are virtually worthless.

Making a few of the pure caster builds more able to focus on melee without multiclassing would actually be good, including adding some trances, melee power, and some other benefits.

I think the melee enhancement trees that DON'T give melee power and the like should be brought up so that they're usable, particularly on T5 and Core 6. More variety in which trees are meta would be good.

But if you're telling me a 20 barbarian Frenzied Berserker needs a big DPS increase.
I'm sorry, but I just think you're wrong.

 

[Anurakh]

There are a few places where I actually think there *could* be some adjustments.


I think 20 Warlock could use some more melee power in the ES tree.
I think that War Soul and War Priest are virtually worthless.

Making a few of the pure caster builds more able to focus on melee without multiclassing would actually be good, including adding some trances, melee power, and some other benefits.

I think the melee enhancement trees that DON'T give melee power and the like should be brought up so that they're usable, particularly on T5 and Core 6. More variety in which trees are meta would be good.

But if you're telling me a 20 barbarian Frenzied Berserker needs a big DPS increase.
I'm sorry, but I just think you're wrong.

Again? We've said many times that Barbarian is one of the few classes that works equally well pure and doesn't need upgrades.

It's things like the Ranger, which is useless beyond level 12, that require love. And in this case, love would be better served with a much-needed overhaul of its spell list.

 

[Bobbryan2]

Again? We've said many times that Barbarian is one of the few classes that works equally well pure and doesn't need upgrades.

It's things like the Ranger, which is useless beyond level 12, that require love. And in this case, love would be better served with a much-needed overhaul of its spell list.

Yes. Ranger needs a pass. Its spells suck. Tempest used to be great, but it's lagging. TWF isn't in a great place.

Pure Ranger can do some things with favored enemy stacking... but yes... I agree that Ranger could use some love. I don't even love where Dark Hunter is.

But... that's a far cry from... we need to buff the lvl 18 and 20 cores on all melee classes. That's just asinine.

 

[Anurakh]

Yes. Ranger needs a pass. Its spells suck. Tempest used to be great, but it's lagging. TWF isn't in a great place.

Pure Ranger can do some things with favored enemy stacking... but yes... I agree that Ranger could use some love. I don't even love where Dark Hunter is.

But... that's a far cry from... we need to buff the lvl 18 and 20 cores on all melee classes. That's just asinine.

See how you don't read? It hasn't been said that ALL melee classes need to be buffed. It's been said that some are fine, but many others have very weak later levels. And not just weapon users.

 

[Bobbryan2]

See how you don't read? It hasn't been said that ALL melee classes need to be buffed. It's been said that some are fine, but many others have very weak later levels. And not just weapon users.

I'm not arguing that certain classes couldn't use balance passes. I'm arguing that approaching that balance pass from the standpoint of 'multi-classes are too powerful' is the wrong framework from which to adopt a balance pass.

Pure classes are mostly fine. The classes that need balance passes on their own should do that irrespective of multi-class phantom concerns.

 

[Azasmokey]

I hate multi classing. done half a dozen pale trappers. TBH i just don't get it , so multi class is a no from me

 

[pirotessa]

What do you think would be a good way to encourage more pure classes? These days its all about "splashes" which seem in many cases is just to get tier 5 enhancements.

My solution? Change the class level requirements for tier 5. Instead of level 5 for tier 5, make it level 12 in the class that tree is in.

The problem as multiple people already stated is a number of the capstones are worthless where taking 2+ levels of any other combination of classes nets you a lot more than staying to 20. Gating the rest of the tree higher wouldn't solve that problem.

Perfect example is Warchanter - capstone gives you a 6 second freeze on a 2 minute cooldown. In what world would anyone ever take that at this point? Maybe 20 years ago that was a good capstone but in today's environment it is beyond worthless.

 

[Br4d]

I hate multi classing. done half a dozen pale trappers. TBH i just don't get it , so multi class is a no from me

Pale Trappers are good solo toons for the most part. This assuming you're not grinding hard and just enjoying the walk in the park. Being able to trap gives XP bonuses and locked chests are a bonus.

I can't make Wizard 15/Rogue 4/x 1 work well though. Too much given up and harvesting trap parts and making traps isn't enough for the power loss.

 

[Phungki]

What do you think would be a good way to encourage more pure classes? These days its all about "splashes" which seem in many cases is just to get tier 5 enhancements.

My solution? Change the class level requirements for tier 5. Instead of level 5 for tier 5, make it level 12 in the class that tree is in.

I have 11 toons. 10 of which are pure. not much of a min maxer myself.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

I think a huge factor is what trees are available to the base class. Universal trees help a lot with this, like if you're on a DPS Fighter once you fill out Kensei what do you have to spend AP on? Stalwart is ok for some defensive stuff if you're not raiding, but if you want more DPS you're not going to get it from Vanguard - so you go to VKF. Unfortunately there's huge overlap with both giving lots of DS (esp with PL's it's easy to overcap) and Haste Boost - which is IMO a big part of why Fighter 20 is weak right now (although it's very good for low-PL toons IMO, and for leveling as well).

Barbarian pures are more common because 1) they have access to 3 damage trees to start, and 2) VKF giving DS helps a lot with a class that's bad at it.

Even Storm's Eye isn't a bad capstone. 20 MP in the last 2 cores, and a clickie for +25 damage.

FB C5 is really good, but C6 was broken for a long time (clicky only lasted 3s) so ~all optimized FB Barbs were MC. Now that it works, there's space to stay pure.

Most builds posted on the barbarian forum section are pure.

Barb capstones are pretty solid these days and there are lots of places to spend AP otherwise (either VKF or FB, generally) - Visage is great, Storm's Eye is fine, and Mind Over Magic is pretty nice for a tank Barb. So minor multiclasses would have to be gaining a lot for the opportunity cost (if I need a trance I'd rather spend 4 extra AP running KTA vs dropping capstone, for instance).

Heavy Barb dips are fairly well explored, likely in the MC section or in their main class (14/5/x War Domain, 12/5/x Ranger/Barb 11/8/1 Wolf, x/5/3 handaxe SB, 8/6/6 Silvanus etc) - and many/most of those looking for T5 FB for DPS are just better off as a DL. FB is basically just THF stuff, DPS stuff, Blood Tribute, & +2 Multi; by comparison DL offers +2 Multi, Imbue, CC, Haste Boost, Displacement, and two trance options - and you can rage via Fury anyway so you're not even losing out on that option if you want.

Dipping slightly into Barb is pretty common still AFAIK - but this wouldn't be in Barb forum section. But +10% MS and Blood Feast access is pretty great, and Blood Tribute/Sprints for HC is nice as well.

 

[Jaspar]

They are just fine, tho.
Everyone keeps saying they're not fine. The lvl 18 and 20 cores are good for the most part.

Disagreeing with you that they're not powerful is not the same as saying devs should only work on what I want them to work on. It's saying that the balance is fine right now, and any attempt to tweak it is likely to cause more harm than good.

It mostly feels like people on the forums don't want to *feel* like they're missing out on power by multiclassing. FOMO is no reason to change game systems.

What you "feel" is simply wrong. Splashing 5 levels of DL makes almost all melee builds better. Going FVS with some Arty is the best combo for ranged DPS, with 20 Arty a bit behind and every other non-Inquis build (which allows for all the multi-classing you can ever imagine) literally miles behind.

Go 20 Rogue GXB and tell us that its fine.

Except you dont play pure, you play multi-class. Because its better.

A buff to level 18 and level 20 cores does absolutely nothing to your game play. Yet you dont want others (who want to play pure) to see any benefit. That just makes you selfish or ignorant or both.