Mechgraber's Endgame Paladin

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
With the upcoming U82 changes a Dwarf with a warhammer/knight's training looks like an interesting option. And since Dwarf gets crit range in it's racial tree it also makes fighter a potentially interesting choicer, but giving up those tasty saves, lay on hands, etc. is a tough choice.
 

eartheyes

outerspacetruth
With the upcoming U82 changes a Dwarf with a warhammer/knight's training looks like an interesting option. And since Dwarf gets crit range in it's racial tree it also makes fighter a potentially interesting choicer, but giving up those tasty saves, lay on hands, etc. is a tough choice.
maybe with the war priest changes, dwarf cleric is the call?!?...only half joking :)
 

Mechgraber

Well-known member
Quick cutter has been nerfed several times (longer cooldown, 2d6 and 3d6 damage moved to higher tiers) but the 200% to 100% scaling nerf is a huge change and has been described akin to "barely worth pressing" according to those who have tested it. This combined with the auto-consecrate nerf, along with the past life AC change makes this build a lot less viable for what it originally set out to do: solo hard/low skull raids and high skull quests.

Yes, they will claim the change to How Dare You Strike Me is a "bugfix" but if something has been existing as is for years and is well known, that is better described a nerf, particularly if it was not particularly disrupting game balance or causing serious issues. That ability should have had a short or minimal cooldown from the start. If artifact+sentient filigrees suddenly were "fixed" to no longer stack, that would be a nerf. Everyone knows about it, everyone talks about it, everyone builds for it, everyone uses it. It is disappointing that they could not even compromise and make the cooldown go from the current 0 to 20 or 30 seconds. Even 45 seconds, while a lot weaker, is something. 2 minutes, as written, makes the ability very close to useless, but then again that is how SSG rolls, crushing builds in order to get players to buy hearts of wood, Ottos boxes and jewelers toolkits.

Others have floated the idea that the devs do not play the game, and over time I have come to the same inexorable conclusion.

I'll probably TR to something else. Or maybe stop playing. Flip a coin I suppose. Lots of other games out there where you don't get the rug pulled out from under you for absolutely no real reason every few months.

Finally, I've gotten tons of messages over the years from those who have enjoyed the build, I'm glad you've had fun, so have I!
 

Seldarin

Well-known member
Quick cutter has been nerfed several times (longer cooldown, 2d6 and 3d6 damage moved to higher tiers) but the 200% to 100% scaling nerf is a huge change and has been described akin to "barely worth pressing" according to those who have tested it. This combined with the auto-consecrate nerf, along with the past life AC change makes this build a lot less viable for what it originally set out to do: solo hard/low skull raids and high skull quests.

Yes, they will claim the change to How Dare You Strike Me is a "bugfix" but if something has been existing as is for years and is well known, that is better described a nerf, particularly if it was not particularly disrupting game balance or causing serious issues. That ability should have had a short or minimal cooldown from the start. If artifact+sentient filigrees suddenly were "fixed" to no longer stack, that would be a nerf. Everyone knows about it, everyone talks about it, everyone builds for it, everyone uses it. It is disappointing that they could not even compromise and make the cooldown go from the current 0 to 20 or 30 seconds. Even 45 seconds, while a lot weaker, is something. 2 minutes, as written, makes the ability very close to useless, but then again that is how SSG rolls, crushing builds in order to get players to buy hearts of wood, Ottos boxes and jewelers toolkits.

Others have floated the idea that the devs do not play the game, and over time I have come to the same inexorable conclusion.

I'll probably TR to something else. Or maybe stop playing. Flip a coin I suppose. Lots of other games out there where you don't get the rug pulled out from under you for absolutely no real reason every few months.

Finally, I've gotten tons of messages over the years from those who have enjoyed the build, I'm glad you've had fun, so have I!
I have been playing this for awhile and have enjoyed it, and only recently arrived at the conclusion that could actually do reaper quests using it. (most of my other toons i get my ass handed to me soloing suff, so i hadnt bothered). One of my guildies said that i should be able to R6 or so, based on what i told him, so i have been dabbling with R1 and R2, just taking it easy as its a new experience for me (despite playing for 20 years). I am sad if the upcoming changes really impact the build because i have really enjoyed it and it would mean i have to find something and i already have a dozen something elses to fix.
 

Mechgraber

Well-known member
I have been playing this for awhile and have enjoyed it, and only recently arrived at the conclusion that could actually do reaper quests using it. (most of my other toons i get my ass handed to me soloing suff, so i hadnt bothered). One of my guildies said that i should be able to R6 or so, based on what i told him, so i have been dabbling with R1 and R2, just taking it easy as its a new experience for me (despite playing for 20 years). I am sad if the upcoming changes really impact the build because i have really enjoyed it and it would mean i have to find something and i already have a dozen something elses to fix.

It'll still be OK, but quick cutter is a significant loss of dps that is impossible to get back. I've talked to more DPS focused melee builds that are on the same page, it's a loss even with other small potential gains elsewhere like crit range/multipliers.

Losing auto consecrate impacts solo raiding most of all. Stuff like solo LVOD or FOM are much tougher without it. A 2 minute cooldown really does make that ability near useless, it's not an exaggeration. A actively using consecrate puts other strikes on cooldown so that's pretty much garbage as well for hybrid builds. But it'll still hold up in terms of CC, defenses and self healing in typical questing, because in high skulls auto consecrate isn't really that important, (legendary) strength of arms more than makes up for it.

Can gradually bump skulls as you get comfortable with things, definitely try r3,4,5 before r6. Also keep in mind what level/how old content is plays a big role here as well. It's not a bad build but it's been shot in the knee for sure. Often hybrid builds get hit hardest by stuff like this.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
First of all you not only put together an outstanding build, but an outstanding build guide. Thank you for all the effort you put into helping the community. I've referred your build to many people.

This build is especially good for people that prefer a stand-and-deliver playstyle.

My reason for being optimistic about Vanguard despite the devs seemingly intentionally nerfing the ac-based tanky playstyle is:
- Uncapped doublestrike: Vanguard gets 10% from greater shield mastery, 10% from zeal (paladin version only), potentially 15% from past lifes for those missing the AC, 6% from unyielding sentinel and LD is looking real good with 6% in the tree and 30% Stacking with the epic moment combining with morale bonus from harper and the reaper strike.
- The changes to hand-and-a-half that you mentioned are a nice boost to dps
- The devs are fixing a bug that caused enemies in level 34+ content to have a 20% higher "to hit" value. I am skeptical this will offset the loss of AC, but prior to level 34 content a 300ish AC was pretty solid. So depending on the curve after this change the loss of AC and changes to enemy could be partially or fully offset - I am guessing partially at best.
- The auto-consecrate was clearly not working as described and I never really relied on it, it just allowed me to be a bit lazy while also watching netflix. In fact since I was bladeforged it's safe to say it wasn't really a big deal to me at all. The fact that the AC change wasn't introduced until the 2nd update and the auto-consecrate wasn't introduced until the 3rd update seems to indicate someone that has the devs ear convinced them this was a major balance issue.
- I don't care about the mass party raise change. I only ever used that more than once when we had serious lag issues after the transfer.

I am not currently running a vanguard on live but did respec my former vanguard to test out the changes on Lamannia and it seemed like my dps was way up in LD, especially against bosses. AC was bugged entirely so it was never possible to test the impact of that change as I will lose 50 more AC on live in addition to what I lost on Lamannia.

In the 3rd update they dropped bastard sword and daxe from knight's training so I couldn't finish my testing, but oddly there was no mention of it in the release notes. I am hoping that doesn't mean they scrapped adding it to knight's training after all and decided not to communicate that until release day. This and the dev's propensity to cut off the hand of my builds one finger at a time is making me wait until release day before I make my changes.

If the changes go through as described by the release note information available as of update 3, I will change my current 20 Fighter tank to a 20 Fighter vanguard and test it out. I am dwarf so I will try daxe with con to damage, strength as secondary but also int secondary as well so I can pick up the trance in harper agent along with the doublestrike. It will just be mandatory to fit in insightful and quality accuracy.

It's going to be a very different build as I am getting alot of special attacks from feats instead of KOTC. I will try Vanguard/Kensai but I also want to try a more tanky version of 41 Vanguard, 31 Stalwart defender and see if I can match my KOTC tier 5/Vanguard capstone split in terms of dps and AC. I didn't get to fully finish my testing, but I believe it might be possible. The downside is when your build depends on defender stance it kind of rules it out for public raiding unless it can tank the raid fine. I am hoping that will be possible with good defenses, high melee power combined with legendary strength of arms - at least for LH casual raiding.

Anyhow I am not ready throw in the towel. I was always planning to return my character to Vanguard as I have another tank at cap. I am even more interested in trying it out now with all these changes to see what might work. I will keep following this thread and will be interested in what ideas you and others come up with, although I also understand when your well-documented build gets nerf-targeted that you might want to keep it a bit closer to the vest.
 
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Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
Quick cutter has been nerfed several times (longer cooldown, 2d6 and 3d6 damage moved to higher tiers) but the 200% to 100% scaling nerf is a huge change and has been described akin to "barely worth pressing" according to those who have tested it. This combined with the auto-consecrate nerf, along with the past life AC change makes this build a lot less viable for what it originally set out to do: solo hard/low skull raids and high skull quests.

Yes, they will claim the change to How Dare You Strike Me is a "bugfix" but if something has been existing as is for years and is well known, that is better described a nerf, particularly if it was not particularly disrupting game balance or causing serious issues. That ability should have had a short or minimal cooldown from the start. If artifact+sentient filigrees suddenly were "fixed" to no longer stack, that would be a nerf. Everyone knows about it, everyone talks about it, everyone builds for it, everyone uses it. It is disappointing that they could not even compromise and make the cooldown go from the current 0 to 20 or 30 seconds. Even 45 seconds, while a lot weaker, is something. 2 minutes, as written, makes the ability very close to useless, but then again that is how SSG rolls, crushing builds in order to get players to buy hearts of wood, Ottos boxes and jewelers toolkits.

Others have floated the idea that the devs do not play the game, and over time I have come to the same inexorable conclusion.

I'll probably TR to something else. Or maybe stop playing. Flip a coin I suppose. Lots of other games out there where you don't get the rug pulled out from under you for absolutely no real reason every few months.

Finally, I've gotten tons of messages over the years from those who have enjoyed the build, I'm glad you've had fun, so have I!
TR mate. I've never used your builds but have enjoyed tagging along with you in quests from time to time and would be sorry to see you go. 👍
 

Hammatimes

Well-known member
Not sure where you'll end up after the AC changes, but if you ever go back to 41/31 kotc van I would suggest using medium armor with a large shield and sapphire of armored defense.

Paladins aren't restricted to heavy armor like fighters are and the increased dodge generally seems more beneficial than the 15 prr and slight ac gain from heavy, especially when the AC difference gets mitigated by increased dex ac. Although t4 SaD would make the AC difference larger.

And you can scroll masters touch for tower shield proficiency although it gets annoying.
 
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Mechgraber

Well-known member
First of all you not only put together an outstanding build, but an outstanding build guide. Thank you for all the effort you put into helping the community. I've referred your build to many people.
My pleasure and thank you!
- The devs are fixing a bug that caused enemies in level 34+ content to have a 20% higher "to hit" value. I am skeptical this will offset the loss of AC, but prior to level 34 content a 300ish AC was pretty solid. So depending on the curve after this change the loss of AC and changes to enemy could be partially or fully offset - I am guessing partially at best.
When I heard this bug I was 0% surprised, as there's very clearly been an incredibly steep increase in AC requirements. Even on hard, the Abyss wilderness marilith hits ~80% of the time. 400 AC isn't much compared to a true AC build, but it's still enough of an investment that ~80% on hard is headscratchingly high.
- The auto-consecrate was clearly not working as described and I never really relied on it, it just allowed me to be a bit lazy while also watching netflix. In fact since I was bladeforged it's safe to say it wasn't really a big deal to me at all. The fact that the AC change wasn't introduced until the 2nd update and the auto-consecrate wasn't introduced until the 3rd update seems to indicate someone that has the devs ear convinced them this was a major balance issue.
Maybe they saw my elite FOM post! Joking, but only half, since the devs don't play it's likely they keep an eye on such things. It's very much a niche thing because:

-You have to be reduced to 50% or lower HP (involves risk/tanking things)
-You have to stay within the circle or it's pointless (casters/ranged almost never use)
-It's a self heal so subject to reaper penalties (useless in high skulls)

So...in group quest play other people healing you is better, particularly in raids. Consecrate isn't why r10 groups have been crushing it. And in raids, it's not used either.

In high skull solo quests, temp HP is better because consecrate is going to hit you for very close to nothing. With 453% healing amp and ~600 pos spellpower, it hits me in r10 for a grand total of...drumroll please.....46hp. Every 3 seconds. Nerf it!

Which leaves it being really only truly useful for hard/elite (maaaybe low skull) hybrid tank/dps solo raiding...a niche within a niche. True tanks don't use it, nor do pure DPS. Only hybrids, which SSG really seems out to get at times.

Or just zoning out and not dying on easy content as you said, you can afk in the wilderness and not have squirrels bite your toes to death.
- I don't care about the mass party raise change. I only ever used that more than once when we had serious lag issues after the transfer.
Yea that's a good change, beckon is still viable but it raises the stakes a bit.
This and the dev's propensity to cut off the hand of my builds one finger at a time is making me wait until release day before I make my changes.
I don't bother with lam, they throw in stuff then take it out so you never know.
The downside is when your build depends on defender stance it kind of rules it out for public raiding unless it can tank the raid fine. I am hoping that will be possible with good defenses, high melee power combined with legendary strength of arms - at least for LH casual raiding.
Should be, yea. I can't think of any LH raids that might cause issues. Might have to be observant for whirlwinds in relentless. But by and large LH bosses hit for a small fraction of r1+ so whoever tanks is sort of a formality usually.
Anyhow I am not ready throw in the towel. I was always planning to return my character to Vanguard as I have another tank at cap. I am even more interested in trying it out now with all these changes to see what might work. I will keep following this thread and will be interested in what ideas you and others come up with, although I also understand when your well-documented build gets nerf-targeted that you might want to keep it a bit closer to the vest.
I'll probably still share whatever I come up with. Took a while for them to nerf things and it kind of lines up with the yearly racial PL reacquisition. Might try some fighter so I can reuse gear while doing mindcleaver or whatever it's called.
TR mate. I've never used your builds but have enjoyed tagging along with you in quests from time to time and would be sorry to see you go. 👍
Thanks and I'll undoubtedly stick around in some form!
Not sure where you'll end up after the AC changes, but if you ever go back to 41/31 kotc van I would suggest using medium armor with a large shield and sapphire of armored defense.

Paladins aren't restricted to heavy armor like fighters are and the increased dodge generally seems more beneficial than the 15 prr and slight ac gain from heavy, especially when the AC difference gets mitigated by increased dex ac. Although t4 SaD would make the AC difference larger.

And you can scroll masters touch for tower shield proficiency although it gets annoying.
Yea I don't have the patience for that heh. I'm actually using a large at the moment (vengeance manifest) with 13% dodge. Sapphire is in it so great minds think alike! Could get up to 17% with medium armor but my heavy is a rare item (crownblade upgraded) with reaper 5% AC so I'll probably stick with that.
 

Grunndi

Well-known member
Quick cutter has been nerfed several times (longer cooldown, 2d6 and 3d6 damage moved to higher tiers) but the 200% to 100% scaling nerf is a huge change and has been described akin to "barely worth pressing" according to those who have tested it. This combined with the auto-consecrate nerf, along with the past life AC change makes this build a lot less viable for what it originally set out to do: solo hard/low skull raids and high skull quests.

Yes, they will claim the change to How Dare You Strike Me is a "bugfix" but if something has been existing as is for years and is well known, that is better described a nerf, particularly if it was not particularly disrupting game balance or causing serious issues. That ability should have had a short or minimal cooldown from the start. If artifact+sentient filigrees suddenly were "fixed" to no longer stack, that would be a nerf. Everyone knows about it, everyone talks about it, everyone builds for it, everyone uses it. It is disappointing that they could not even compromise and make the cooldown go from the current 0 to 20 or 30 seconds. Even 45 seconds, while a lot weaker, is something. 2 minutes, as written, makes the ability very close to useless, but then again that is how SSG rolls, crushing builds in order to get players to buy hearts of wood, Ottos boxes and jewelers toolkits.

Others have floated the idea that the devs do not play the game, and over time I have come to the same inexorable conclusion.

I'll probably TR to something else. Or maybe stop playing. Flip a coin I suppose. Lots of other games out there where you don't get the rug pulled out from under you for absolutely no real reason every few months.

Finally, I've gotten tons of messages over the years from those who have enjoyed the build, I'm glad you've had fun, so have I
I’ve been running a similar build for the past several years but using Dwarf and Daxe. Since Dwarf doesn’t need DC for favored weapons, I’ve been using a different ED set up. T5 US, T4 Fury, then T4 EA. (That’s the set up I used to solo R1 LVoD)

I use EA mantle. Combined with Renewal the mantle proc crits for a 14k heal in town, doesn’t use an epic strike, and can be used every 6 seconds (plus the renewal ticks in between). You lose a bit of HP and absorbs compared to US mantle, but it’s hard to beat for self heals. You also gain wings and some nice debuffs.

If warhammer gets strikethrough anyone can get that favored, so you aren’t locked in to DC anymore. Ignition has some nice CC procs, but I suspect Audion with Salt will be a fine substitute.

I’m hamster-wheeling my main at the moment, but if QC isn’t worth it for raid solos I might go back to Adren/boulders. I suspect QC will still be best for questing though.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
I’ve been running a similar build for the past several years but using Dwarf and Daxe. Since Dwarf doesn’t need DC for favored weapons, I’ve been using a different ED set up. T5 US, T4 Fury, then T4 EA. (That’s the set up I used to solo R1 LVoD)

I use EA mantle. Combined with Renewal the mantle proc crits for a 14k heal in town, doesn’t use an epic strike, and can be used every 6 seconds (plus the renewal ticks in between). You lose a bit of HP and absorbs compared to US mantle, but it’s hard to beat for self heals. You also gain wings and some nice debuffs.

If warhammer gets strikethrough anyone can get that favored, so you aren’t locked in to DC anymore. Ignition has some nice CC procs, but I suspect Audion with Salt will be a fine substitute.

I’m hamster-wheeling my main at the moment, but if QC isn’t worth it for raid solos I might go back to Adren/boulders. I suspect QC will still be best for questing though.

This is helpful information. I'm going fighter this time around instead of paladin, but also Dwarf Con-based with Dwarven Axe. I definitely want to try LD T5 as my denstiny and US as my secondary. I've been debating about that 3rd tree and leaning toward Fury but maybe EA is exactly what I needed. I think I can squeeze enough points there to also get Cure Mass Moderate, but I want to go all in on Melee Power and rely on Strength of Arms as my main healing.
 
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