Melee vs. Caster Single-target DPS Test

[Fisto Mk I]

It's a troll. Was I too subtle?

The best troll of the forum should explain that he is a troll? We are DOOMED!!!

 

[Deathdefy]

EDIT: Updated this post to include my tests with an updated gearset. I revamped my build to replace the 'Solar Gem of Critical Chance' with Elder's again as it was non-stacking with the Glacier set and ran three more, going max dps each time. Bye Heartshard, I hardly knew ye.

34 H-Elf - Wild Mage/Air Savant - Draconic/Primal/Fatesinger

Sustainable buffs used: Vulnerability (innate from Air Sorc), Ash (on Amplin), Awaken Electric Vulnerability (savant - sustainable), Call Lightning Storm (sustainable for ~15mins)
Burst buffs used: Wellspring, Night Revels Robe Clickie,

Tests with updated gearset:
Ettin HP: 1,725,599
Time: 27 seconds (shrinkage surge)
About 64k/second

Ettin HP: 1,602,105
Time: 25 seconds (shrinkage surge)
About 64k/second

Ettin HP: 1,775,744
Time: 27 seconds (no bad surges but not optimal crits)
SP: 5045 / 6345
About 65.8k/second

Times are pretty accurate; worst case scenario +/- ~one second. I was using the Night Revel's Cloak clickie and starting from when 'Awaken Vulnerability' aggro'd him as the start, then looking at the Night Revel's timer at kill time and subtracting.

There's room for improvements via luck on fewer bad wild surges/Ettin health, but this is indicative of capped + geared H-Elf Wild Mage / Air Savant damage. Bad surges creating dps drops is accurate.

Raid DPS would drop somewhat when the Robe Clickie wears off:
- (Crits Dams without the Festival Damage are Cold 105, Lightning 111, Sonic 126) at (58%, 70%, 69%)
- finger in the wind I'd say it's a drop of ~12% on about 2/3 of spell casts, so <=10% difference.

I don't use DoTs for dps, but do have Call Lightning Storm (almost) always on. CLS always being on is an accurate reflection of raid dps.

Rotation is literally just repeated:
[Thunderstroke, Chain Lightning, Iceberg, Polar Ray, Greater Shout, Shout]
(6 second cooldowns + global cooldown means it's pretty brainless). Possible optimisation in an order change so I can use Shout twice and remove Polar Ray but haven't tested - I do like how the current one meshes with Primal Avatar Mantle triggers so eh.

 

[Rockcrusher]

The original said minimum 65, maximum 70, average 80, which did not make sense.

It didn't say max of 70. It said 65-70 which was an estimate of the best times. Many were 90+. Yes, I should have expressed the original post more succinctly. Lesson learned.

 

[torkz]

It didn't say max of 70. It said 65-70 which was an estimate of the best times. Many were 90+. Yes, I should have expressed the original post more succinctly. Lesson learned.

Don't worry about it. People like to troll. I had a similar reaction as others at first, but I gave you just a little credit and then realized that you were likely providing a rough estimate of best time and then average. Wasn't that hard to figure out...

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Rotation is literally just repeated:
[Thunderstroke, Chain Lightning, Iceberg, Polar Ray, Greater Shout, Shout]
(6 second cooldowns + global cooldown means it's pretty brainless). Possible optimisation in an order change so I can use Shout twice and remove Polar Ray but haven't tested - I do like how the current one meshes with Primal Avatar Mantle triggers so eh.

If you can fit the master of air feat, lightning bolt does more damage than chainlightning and polar ray on a 2 second cooldown.

 

[Deathdefy]

If you can fit the master of air feat, lightning bolt does more damage than chainlightning and polar ray on a 2 second cooldown.

Great suggestion and very tempting.

My spell damages (pre-crits) are:
- Thunderstroke = 31.5 (avg dam) * 34 (CL) = 1071
- Iceberg = 31.5 (avg dam) * 28 (CL - both it and Iceberg are erroneously imo affected by Air Elemental Form decrease to MCL) - 882
- Greater Shout = 6.5 (avg dam) * 40 (CL; MCL is unreachable at 44) * 1.3 (Harmonic Res) * 2 (Fatesinger) = 676
- Call Lightning Storm (persistent so not a cycle interrupt) = 9.5 (avg damage) * 55 (CLs) = 522.5
- Shout = 6.5 (avg dam) * 39 (CL) * 1.3 (Harmoic Res) * 1.5 (Fatesinger) = 494.325
- Theoretical Master of Air Lightning Bolt 6.5 (avg dam) * 34 (CL) * 1.75 (avg fork benefit; calc below^) = 386.75
- Polar Ray = 11.5 (avg dam) * 33 (CL - Air Elemental Form decrease) = 379.5
- Chain Lightning = 9.5 (avg dam) * 34 (CL) = 323

^Avg fork benefit: 1/2 time = 0 fork = 100% damage, 1/4 time = 1 fork = 200% damage , 1/4 time = 2 forks = 300% damage) = 1 * 1/2 + 2 * 1/4 + 3 * 1/4 = 1.75

You're totally right; Master of Air's Lightning Bolt would be more damage than Polar Ray or Chain Lightning and the short cooldown means I could sub both out.

For me, I think I'm too marginal on DCs to trade off ESF: Evo or Embolden which are the logical candidates (I am certain suspect Master of Music and Wellspring would be a dps loss on the 'Ettin test' at least. 'Intensify' might be worth losing - will test someday!).

Taking a break from the game for a bit beyond maybe farming some additionally socketed boots out of the new raid anyway (which is the most boring possible reason to run a raid hence the break). Really enjoyed Air Sorc though!

 

[Chaotix]

Only problem I can see with this test is that is conducted in normal/hard/elite circumstances, so no R7 caster nerf. So in means of DPS comparison in that kind of environment is useless. On the other hand even in this situation it shows disbalance in DPS melee/ranged/caster, which was said many times before - casters/nukers simply dont cut the mustard in current state of the game.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Only problem I can see with this test is that is conducted in normal/hard/elite circumstances, so no R7 caster nerf. So in means of DPS comparison in that kind of environment is useless. On the other hand even in this situation it shows disbalance in DPS melee/ranged/caster, which was said many times before - casters/nukers simply dont cut the mustard in current state of the game.

The R7+ penalty is easy to account for in any comparison for these numbers.

 

[Chaotix]

The R7+ penalty is easy to account for in any comparison for these numbers.

Sry don't get ur point. Briefly scan of numbers shows that melee even on non-reaper environment tears down Y in 20-ish secs, on other hand best case scenario for caster is 60+ sec (and they supposed to be NUKERS!), so even there ull see that not scaling spell force over lvl20 hurts a lot, after all were speaking on lvl34 environment. Post u made just to post and play wiseass and smart not needed., seriously, it's not constructive, I believe OP posted whole thread to show us (we know that, anyone who play caster knows anyways) and SSG (not that they care) that current state of game simply sux if u playing casters.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Sry don't get ur point. Briefly scan of numbers shows that melee even on non-reaper environment tears down Y in 20-ish secs, on other hand best case scenario for caster is 60+ sec (and they supposed to be NUKERS!), so even there ull see that not scaling spell force over lvl20 hurts a lot, after all were speaking on lvl34 environment. Post u made just to post and play wiseass and smart not needed., seriously, it's not constructive, I believe OP posted whole thread to show us (we know that, anyone who play caster knows anyways) and SSG (not that they care) that current state of game simply sux if u playing casters.

What?

All I am saying is that it is very simple to add the penalty to the non-reaper numbers to get what the numbers would have been in reaper 7+ and thus get a fair comparison.

This was in response to the claim that tests were useless because they were done outside of reaper.

It was not in any way a defense of the current state of the game. In fact I advocate strongly for melee nerfs all the time.

 

[Chaotix]

What?

All I am saying is that it is very simple to add the penalty to the non-reaper numbers to get what the numbers would have been in reaper 7+ and thus get a fair comparison.

This was in response to the claim that tests were useless because they were done outside of reaper.

It was not in any way a defense of the current state of the game. In fact I advocate strongly for melee nerfs all the time.

Then accept my apology

 

[EinarMal]

I was back at cap on Inquisitive and tried it. I am listing the build below; it is not 100% optimized on gear. I am using an older attuned bone light repeater instead of Undying Age. I am sure there are some other improvements that I could get with mythic/reaper/curse bonus, etc..

This is a fun alternative to the FVS 17/3, you run super fast, I had 30d6 sneak and 21 imbue dice, with solid other numbers.

(with epic moment) Lamordia Experiment: ~16s

Tabaxi (Chaotic Neutral Rogue 15/Artificer 4/Barbarian 1
Str Base
Dex Rest
Con Max
Int Max
Wis Base
Cha Base

Enhancements (102)
Inquisitive 41
Racial 19
BE 18
Harper 12
Assassin 9
TA 3

Epic Destiny (83)
Shiradi 35
Shadowdancer 27
Fatesinger 21

Progression:
1 thru 4-Artificer
5-Barbarian
6 thru 20-Rogue

Feats (7):
1-(AB) Rapid Reload
1-Point Blank Shot
2-(AB) Rune Arm Use
3-Rapid Shot
4-(AB) Precise Shot
6-Precision
9-Insightful Reflexes
12-IC Ranged
15-SWF
18-Nimble Fingers
21-OC
22-Holy Strike
24-Combat Archery
25-Doubleshot
27-Patience
28-Harbringer of Chaos
30-Scion of Arborea
30-Watchful Eye
31-Enhanced Elemental Dice
33-Improved Sneak Attack
34-Crush Weakness

Head University Champion's Helm (Deadly +11, Accuracy +22, Armor Piercing +22, Seeker +14, Devils's Dance)
Eye Legendary Goggles of the Archer (DS +9, Sight beyond Sight, Greater Markmanship, Ins. Armor Piercing +11, Solar Sneak +3)
Armor Legendary University Bulwark's Reinforced Shirt (PRR +36, Fort 153, Parrying +6, FoM, Devil's Dance)
Wrist Rocard, Champion's Cuffs (Imp. Deception, Ins. Armor Piercing +11, Ins. Seeker +7, Qual Con +3, Profane Ranged Power)
Ring1 Legendary Ring of Mystic Intelligence (Qual Int +3, Ins. Combat Mastery +6, Qual Dec. +3)
Ring2 Legendary Ring of Unnatural Accuracy (Qual DS +3, Greater Markmanship, Distant Diversion +22))
Boots Legendary Greaves of Seasons' Warding (Absorb +37, Profane Damage)
Gloves Legendary Gloves of the Resilient (Ins. Con +6, Qual Fort +3, Speed +30, PRR +37, Profane Accuracy)
Cloak Legendary University Archer's Cloak (Qual Accuracy +5, Qual Deadly +3, Ins. Armor Piercing +10, Ins. Doubleshot +5, Devil's Dance)
Belt Legendary Belt of Bold Brilliance (Ins. Int +6, Profane Well Rounded, Exc. Healing Amp, Profane Int)
Trinket Legendary Mark of the Dark Powers (Qual MRR +9, Profane Lifeforce +49, +15 Int, Deception +12, Solar Imbue +3)
Necklace Legendary Pendant of Crippling Strikes (Combat Mastery +12, Profane Combat +3, Kick em, Crippling, Profane PRR)
Weapon Attuned Bone Light Crossbow (Sparkscale Silver, Flamefang Good, Brightclaw, Melthorn Dust)
Weapon Attuned Bone Rune Arm (Iridescent Scale, Meltfang Evil, Extraplanar Shadow, Goldfang +2d6 Profane Sneak)

 

[Teth]

What?

All I am saying is that it is very simple to add the penalty to the non-reaper numbers to get what the numbers would have been in reaper 7+ and thus get a fair comparison.

This was in response to the claim that tests were useless because they were done outside of reaper.

It was not in any way a defense of the current state of the game. In fact I advocate strongly for melee nerfs all the time.

I mean technically the comparison is slightly flawed because reaper trees scaling for mp/rp is much better than sp for casters. Also the saves on r10 for casters compared to non reaper is a huge difference, melee/ranged dont suffer that at all.

 

[Teh_Troll]

I was back at cap on Inquisitive and tried it. I am listing the build below; it is not 100% optimized on gear. I am using an older attuned bone light repeater instead of Undying Age. I am sure there are some other improvements that I could get with mythic/reaper/curse bonus, etc..

This is a fun alternative to the FVS 17/3, you run super fast, I had 30d6 sneak and 21 imbue dice, with solid other numbers.

(with epic moment) Lamordia Experiment: ~16s

Is that the most optimized damage Inquisitive? legit asking.

 

[EinarMal]

Is that the most optimized damage Inquisitive? legit asking.

I honestly don't know, for sure, the gear could be better with undying age crossbow. I think it is a solid, inquisitive alternative. I did it for the run speed, which was awesome with barbarian + rogue + tabaxi; I think I was at 184% run speed.

I will say all Inquisitve are very front loaded. The epic moment is 30s, of which you will have NHB up for the first 18s. After the first 18s you drop a good amount, and after 30s another good amount. Obviously, you can then re-use NHB, but you lose 2s of attacking.

I had 12 charges of NHB, so in longer raids, you are going to run out.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Is that the most optimized damage Inquisitive? legit asking.

By my calculations the 14/4/2 paladin version comes out slightly ahead on dps, but rogue is close enough not to worry about. The main differences are rogue utility/speed vs higher defences.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I'd like to see a real-world example of the single-target DPS (melee vs caster) disparity that everyone is yelling about. Here's the test:

1) Go to the Lamordia warehouse (solo so HP is consistent) where Experiment Y lives.
2) Buff, etc. and note the starting time upon your first attack.
3) When Experiment Y is dead, mark the time completed in seconds
4) Reply to this post with your level, class split, and time.

The results assume a relatively lag-free experience and yes, this is just one specific monster type.
I mainly run casters so I'd be curious what well-geared melees can do. My own results on two caster classes are similar:

Level 34 Fire Sorc: 65-70 seconds with an average of about 80 seconds.
Level 34 Druid: 65-70 seconds with an average of about 80 seconds

What Gear, Feats and multi Epic Destinies where you using to hit those numbers?

 

[VinoeWhines]

I have a 10/4/x Wizard/Bard/Experiment X class I'm looking to field, to test some things.

 

[Smokewolf]

I have a 10/4/x Wizard/Bard/Experiment X class I'm looking to field, to test some things.

So a Swash / EK build ?

 

[Balegdah]

Yes, this is just a simple, generalized test. For those that want more, look elsewhere.

I'm curious since I haven't played a chaosmancer, but I've played a Stormsinger. Did the chaosmancer portion give you better DPS or was it all stormsinger abilities, debuffs, vulnerability, etc.?

confused. you want specifics or general info?