Modular Per-Server Past Life Feats

[cocopufff]

The Suggestion
There's two aspects to this:

First: Instead of past-life feats being unlocked on a per-character basis, each one is unlocked on a per-server basis. This would likely work better with a rebalance of EXP where you don't get more EXP requirement in order to hit 20 in new lives. Purely because without such a change, the optimal strategy would always be first-lifing everything. Or else, in order to get multiple copies of the same feat (thus upgrading it) you would need to do so on the same character--this would force more 2nd and 3rd lives as well.

Second: At character creation / reincarnation, you can now select a limited number of the past-life feats to apply to this particular character. Likely, you'd get a certain number for each category. This would likely mean each past life feat needs to be made stronger to compensate for the fact that you now can't have literally all of them at the same time. Particularly, it would be good for the completionism feats to be much more powerful so that there's still the goal of hitting them. It would also mean that the way racial points are given would need to be reworked--having the Racial enhancement points is good, though honestly, reducing the 42 past lives it takes to get all of them is a net-positive as well.

The Rationale
There are a few goals with these changes.
First: The vast quantity of past-life feats applied to each character who's been playing for long periods of time creates insane power creep to the game. Tapering this off to the point where having all the past life feats offers you an awesome completionism feat you can take, as well as offering you a lot more options in your toolbox rather than such a huge amount of baseline power. This functions as both a catch-up mechanic for newer players, as well as (hopefully) keeps the incentive to collect past-life feats.

Second: This makes it so you can actually have multiple toons going at once without harming your past-life progress. One of the big failings of DDO is that optimal play is only using one character at a time. It's super nice to have a variety of different characters with different playstyles so you can pick whichever one you feel like at the moment, and by making past-life feats something server-wide for your account, you can level each toon as you see fit while still getting in the past lives you might need. This is a huge win for the system over all.

Third: Past life feats currently are more of an "illusion of choice" rather than actual choice. As much as you can take each feat if you want to, the big pull of them is raw, flat power added to builds for each. Making them more powerful, but limiting you to only a certain number, allows for them to play a bigger role in character building and decision making. It creates more diversity in builds without necessarily power creeping them. In my humble opinion, it also makes for better roleplaying to where you determine that a specific character has a specific past-life story instead of just being literally a hundred different people in your past lives.

 

[rabidfox]

They can't even let people transfer mounts, pets, nor guildships and you want to lock past lives to a server?

Unless you're running very specific content with certain builds on extreme difficulties, then past lives are just there for fun and not necessity (and then it's usually just a matter of certain past lives based off one's build). Is your objective to get into push raiding quickly?

 

[cocopufff]

They can't even let people transfer mounts, pets, nor guildships and you want to lock past lives to a server?

I'm fairly confused by this. Aren't pets/mounts server-wide? I'm advocating that past lives be a server-wide unlock like veteran status, where once you've unlocked it, you have it unlocked for all your toons on that server.

Unless you're running very specific content with certain builds on extreme difficulties, then past lives are just there for fun and not necessity (and then it's usually just a matter of certain past lives based off one's build). Is your objective to get into push raiding quickly?

The issue with past lives is they vastly increase people's power and optimization. This means that there is a HUGE gap between people who have them and people who don't. The new player experience then, for more reasons than this, ends up being that new players are basically set dressing while experienced players blow through quests.

I never said they were "necessary," but I also think you'd have to be an idiot to deny the sheer amount of power they give, as well as the rather insane grind people look at when facing them. Narrowing scope of past lives into ones you actively need to select from allows for them to become more of an expression of build variety and less just raw power.

New players can catch up reasonably well in terms of mechanics, gear, and builds to experienced players. These are doable. Past lives, on the other hand, just aren't. The suggestion of limiting them to a certain number per-character would make it so that there's a much better way to catch up. You can say "you don't need to catch up!" but knowing that you're going to be significantly less useful/powerful than other players until you farm literally a hundred different lives in this game... that's something that scares players away. Making past lives a function of having options rather than just raw power is the way to make it so you're both incentivized to farm them for the sake of variety instead of just raw power.
This is basically what they did with epic/iconic lives, only they didn't commit--you still get passive bonuses even though you can only have one active at a time. I'm basically advocating for a stronger form of this.

 

[rabidfox]

I'm fairly confused by this. Aren't pets/mounts server-wide? I'm advocating that past lives be a server-wide unlock like veteran status, where once you've unlocked it, you have it unlocked for all your toons on that server.

You can't transfer them to new servers. So all your past lives would be forever stuck on X or Y server. It would be bad.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Curious what actual % difference in some power metric you think comes from past life feats directly-I agree they are absolutely useful, but I don’t think they’re the single thing causing a power gulf between characters. I also think reaper points are at least as, if not far more, important in terms of power discrepancies.

More concretely, do you have an example of something a toon with 120+ past lives *can* do that a toon with ~10 *cannot* (outside of being the best choice for r6+ new raids)

 

[cocopufff]

Curious what actual % difference in some power metric you think comes from past life feats directly-I agree they are absolutely useful, but I don’t think they’re the single thing causing a power gulf between characters. I also think reaper points are at least as, if not far more, important in terms of power discrepancies.

Here is a comprehensive list of everything you can get from past life feats (all of this stacks, and all of this doesn't take feat slots.)

+4 Destiny Points
+14 Racial AP,
+180 Spell Points,
+30 HP, Scaling HP (36 lvl 1, 84 lvl 10, 132 lvl 20, 180 lvl 30).
+9 Strength, +12 Dexterity, +10 Constitution, +10 Intelligence, +10 Wisdom, +11 Charisma

+15% fortification, +3% Dodge, +15 MMR, +45 PRR, AC scaling with level (24 lvl1, 36 lvl 10, 60 lvl 30), +6 elemental resistance, +15 absorption of Acid, Cold, Fire, Electric,
+ 6 save v.s. enchantments and illusions, +3 fortitude saves, +3 Will Saves, +9 saves versus traps,

+11 Disable Device, +11 Search, +14 Repair, +17 Spellcraft, +14 UMD,
+11 Heal, +11 Search, +11 Balance, +14 Spot, +11 Diplomacy, +11 Intimidate, +11 Move Silently, +11 Haggle, +11 Tumble, +8 disable device, +8 Open lock

+15 Fire Spell Power, +15 Acid Spell Power, +15 Poison Spell Power, +15 Negative Spell Power, +24 Positive Spell Power, +15 Lightning Spell Power, +15 Sonic Spell Power

+9 Spell Penetration

+3 DC Transmutation, +3 DC Conjuration, +3 DC Evocation, +6 DCs with wands, +3 DC tactical feats,

+45 Healing Amplification, +15 Negative Amplification

+3 Damage Rolls, +3 attack roles, +6 damage with ranged

+6 to damage with sneak attacks, +3 to hit with sneak attacks

+3 bard song use, +3 Turn Undead attempts, +6 levels for Turn Undead,

+6 ability scores on hirelings/minions.

And that's not including Iconic stances and Epic stances, which add significant bonuses as well.

Like... I don't know why people pretend that the amount of power here isn't a massive gulf. More concretely, things like +9 Spell Penetration is basically a necessity if you want to be a DC caster and be viable in harder modes. 9% critical chance for acid, cold, electric, fire, and sonic is HUGE from the arcane sphere epic one. Or even just another +3 Spell Penetration for +12 total. You literally can't get that much even if you devoted as many feats as possible to it. The racial AP is considered a necessity for a vast array of builds, none the least of which are Arcane Archer builds and a lot of other ranged options. Even just the sheer fact of getting ludicrous bonuses to all your base stats + skills is huge.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Yeah, that's why I said ~10 past lives—I agree the first 10 are pretty important for DC casters, etc. the rest is good, but I don't think it is why some players are dominating over others (racial AP is the (possible) exception to that, those are game changing to have)

 

[cocopufff]

Yeah, that's why I said ~10 past lives—I agree the first 10 are pretty important for DC casters, etc. the rest is good, but I don't think it is why some players are dominating over others (racial AP is the (possible) exception to that, those are game changing to have)

Yeah, the racials are pretty huge. Imho the stance-based ones are pretty massive too (I can't overstate how huge of a deal an extra 9% crit rate is for things like sorcs.) Even if you just add in racials + getting your preferred stance + getting your spell pen feats, you're looking at 50+ lives. But honestly, the huge boosts to stat scores are also pretty massive for things like DC casters, too. Which require completionist feats. Archer/thrower builds kind of really rely on the doubleshot stance + racials for a lot too, and tanks are super reliant on this stuff for the healing amp as well as the mass quantities of defensive stats (Even with all that crap, tanks sadly get eviscerated in high reapers anyways.)

 

[PraetorPlato]

Completionist and racial completionism is like 2dc—good, but not make or break.

 

[Oliphant]

Would prefer they make PLs slottable, unslottable and BTA like filigrees. It would provide some brakes on just making the top power even greater (worse). It would give people with alt the choice to spend on sending their PLs to one toon to get even more powerful or if they buss down PLs to their weaker toons. One could at least hope for some balance. Also allows you to take PLs to another server.

 

[rabidfox]

I'm more curious to know how many heroic (and racial & epic) completionists make up the % of active accounts (same with where reaper point averages are actually at). I suspect it's a fairly small amount of the player base that's super deep into the TR treadmills/high RXP.

 

[Ungermax]

I'm more curious to know how many heroic (and racial & epic) completionists make up the % of active accounts (same with where reaper point averages are actually at). I suspect it's a fairly small amount of the player base that's super deep into the TR treadmills/high RXP.

Pretty much.

That being said, while I can understand both sides of this one, YES we can say its not necessary to do those lives. But if someone says they want to get racial. heroic and epic comp, we should not be trying to curb their enthusiasm! It shows a willingness to stay with the game for a long time and this is what we need.

Get your completionist payouts. Sure, heroic and racial comp only give +2 to each stat but they actually dont because the stuff you gained along the way is what makes the difference.

It takes a long time to do yes but whether or not it is "worth it," a player should make this decision for themself. I would say if you like the game then yes it is worth it not just for the stats but because by the time youve done it, you will have tried out most of the builds, gotten your character a ton of stats, and probably have unlocked a load of content for free along the way.

Your DDO account will be better off for it.

I am partly on board for server wide past lives but in the same breath it feels a bit cheaty. Maybe Racial and Heroic comp should be unlocked server wide, because that doesnt give too much of a power boost on its own, so bringing that forward on alts doesnt strike me as out of the question. Other past life feats though, I am not so sure. Maybe having 36 point build unlocked for alts would be doable.

Its just so hard to want to make an alt these days because a blank past life slate is nice for Hardcore but on a vanilla server it just feels like a huge endeavor. I have plenty of builds I want to try out and leave at cap for a while, but I would in the very least feel like I have to get an alt to 36 pt build for it to have any sort of shelf live. AT LEAST.

Not far to go for racial comp on my main now though, I think I only need 7 or 8 more. The end is in sight

 

[cocopufff]

That being said, while I can understand both sides of this one, YES we can say its not necessary to do those lives. But if someone says they want to get racial. heroic and epic comp, we should not be trying to curb their enthusiasm! It shows a willingness to stay with the game for a long time and this is what we need.

The hope is that what I've outlined her wouldn't 'curb' people's enthusiasm on doing so.

For me at least, I've noticed a very massive rift between players who have been here for ages and players who haven't. I don't even think it's build/gear/technique--I've seen a lot of newer players with reasonably good amounts of all three who still fall vastly behind. I think RXP is definitely a lot of it (but they've already said they're reworking that, so I'm kind of in a wait-and-see point there.) This suggestion is my attempt to try and bridge that gap a bit since I do think it's harmful to the game. When I played a long time ago, the only TRs that existed were the heroics--no racial, epic, or Iconic. And it was much more reasonable.

 

[DBZ]

Dont need rxp at all to grind then the pls just add up

A fist full of frags and a few frags more the real grind

Racials just the bare minimum works now like 21 for 10 build points and that should work for every build

 

[Lazuli]

Here is a comprehensive list of everything you can get from past life feats (all of this stacks, and all of this doesn't take feat slots.)

+4 Destiny Points
+14 Racial AP,
+180 Spell Points,
+30 HP, Scaling HP (36 lvl 1, 84 lvl 10, 132 lvl 20, 180 lvl 30).
+9 Strength, +12 Dexterity, +10 Constitution, +10 Intelligence, +10 Wisdom, +11 Charisma

+15% fortification, +3% Dodge, +15 MMR, +45 PRR, AC scaling with level (24 lvl1, 36 lvl 10, 60 lvl 30), +6 elemental resistance, +15 absorption of Acid, Cold, Fire, Electric,
+ 6 save v.s. enchantments and illusions, +3 fortitude saves, +3 Will Saves, +9 saves versus traps,

+11 Disable Device, +11 Search, +14 Repair, +17 Spellcraft, +14 UMD,
+11 Heal, +11 Search, +11 Balance, +14 Spot, +11 Diplomacy, +11 Intimidate, +11 Move Silently, +11 Haggle, +11 Tumble, +8 disable device, +8 Open lock

+15 Fire Spell Power, +15 Acid Spell Power, +15 Poison Spell Power, +15 Negative Spell Power, +24 Positive Spell Power, +15 Lightning Spell Power, +15 Sonic Spell Power

+9 Spell Penetration

+3 DC Transmutation, +3 DC Conjuration, +3 DC Evocation, +6 DCs with wands, +3 DC tactical feats,

+45 Healing Amplification, +15 Negative Amplification

+3 Damage Rolls, +3 attack roles, +6 damage with ranged

+6 to damage with sneak attacks, +3 to hit with sneak attacks

+3 bard song use, +3 Turn Undead attempts, +6 levels for Turn Undead,

+6 ability scores on hirelings/minions.

And that's not including Iconic stances and Epic stances, which add significant bonuses as well.

Like... I don't know why people pretend that the amount of power here isn't a massive gulf. More concretely, things like +9 Spell Penetration is basically a necessity if you want to be a DC caster and be viable in harder modes. 9% critical chance for acid, cold, electric, fire, and sonic is HUGE from the arcane sphere epic one. Or even just another +3 Spell Penetration for +12 total. You literally can't get that much even if you devoted as many feats as possible to it. The racial AP is considered a necessity for a vast array of builds, none the least of which are Arcane Archer builds and a lot of other ranged options. Even just the sheer fact of getting ludicrous bonuses to all your base stats + skills is huge.

I have not started to look at your entire list, but already in the first line I see that it is incorrect. Currently 9 destiny points are earned for past lives, soon it will be 10.
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There are too many past lives to tie them all to one character. What I would do is share a third of the PLs, this way the alts would not be so undesirable and at the same time you would still have to work to have everything on all characters. I would do it through an npc that acts as "PL bank" of the server. Thus, a toon that has a past life achieved three times, could talk to the npc and unlock that life for future alts. An alt could talk to the npc and flag to get the past life with a lesser reincarnation.

This system would have multiple advantages: those who don't want to share past lives with their alts wouldn't have to do it (don't talk to the npc bank), it shortens the grind of the alts without eliminating it completely (and devs, there's too much grind), it doesn't favor those with many alts or those who have only one character (the pool of past lives can come from a single character or several), and it would not be necessary to modify the XP progression in heroics nor change the current methods of TR (and the process of acquiring past lives with alts is very similar to that of an ER to me)