Monk stances attacks

[Levina]

I disagree with the "make KI strikes imbue" idea. Strikes are there to not only do damage, but create finisher moves. While some may argue the usefulness of them, the mechanics are still there. Having them as toggles will break the finishing mechanic.

I do think the idea of scaling the strikes with imbue dice modifier is a good idea, but may not be possible depending on the coding in the background.

What I would like to see is an option to extend the duration of some of the Ki buffs (like spell buffs do as you go higher... level 1 buff lasts for 5 minutes, but level 20 lasts for 30 minutes). Ki buffs should be 1 minutes at level 1, and 30 seconds each monk level (total would be 17 minutes at level 32). This would increase the usefulness AND give some incentive for pure monk.

the finisher mechanic barely gets any use. Even then there is no reason not to make them a Ki Strike passive damage to every hit.

when i had just come back i had no idea that Imbue was a new mechanic that folks were trying to squeeze into anything and everything. Now i see that as a problem.

The Always-On Ki Strike mechanic i asked for many years ago was so that we could toggle the extra damage a monk needs to come close to measuring up to the other melee classes. Even then it's woefully inadequate and the only monk build that is even viable now is water stance with max WIS anyway... Monks could use an overhaul. Again. This time without the entire nation's nerfbats being launched at the class from trebuchets into a deep pit with Monk helpless at the bottom to resist as the nerf bat barrage hits over and over again relentlessly.

 

[droid327]

Not every build needs to have an imbue slotted into every tree. Theres an imbue available in Ninja if you want to pay the opportunity cost for it....otherwise, you're getting other things with your AP instead

If every single build had an Imbue then there'd be no point to having them...that'd just be automatic options for enhancements and gear that everyone would take the same, which reduces overall build diversity

Especially since unarmed Monk is already one of the highest ROF for melee, which means Imbues for them would be particularly strong. So you can dip into Ninja, you can splash /1 Fist, you can roll a Drow monk, or you can just focus on other aspects of melee that Shintao already excels at, like CC.

 

[misterski]

Not every build needs to have an imbue slotted into every tree. Theres an imbue available in Ninja if you want to pay the opportunity cost for it....otherwise, you're getting other things with your AP instead

If every single build had an Imbue then there'd be no point to having them...that'd just be automatic options for enhancements and gear that everyone would take the same, which reduces overall build diversity

Especially since unarmed Monk is already one of the highest ROF for melee, which means Imbues for them would be particularly strong. So you can dip into Ninja, you can splash /1 Fist, you can roll a Drow monk, or you can just focus on other aspects of melee that Shintao already excels at, like CC.

That one doesn't work with handwraps.

 

[Arkat]

...we can hope they will listen to us.

 

[Levina]

Initially i asked for the following:

Ki strike passive effect for every hit causes -1 ki per hit and scales with monk level.
Ki strike passive is disqualified and does not work if you multiclass (at all) so it's a "stay pure or lose it" ability.
Ki strike passive does not interfere with "finishers" in any way, nor does it set them up.
Ki strike passive adds on like the Arrow stuff for Arcane Archers -- Now that there is an "imbue" system for that i want the Ki strike passive to be kept *separate* or for its limitation of "stay pure or lose it" to be absolutely rigid and unforgiving.

An "always on" fists of light or fists of darkness would create merit for the existence of a Monk near endgame where none otherwise exists because the DPS of other classes is much higher. Add in an ellenmental Ki strike passive on hit effect and you have yourself something that might make monk slightly less pointlessly wasteful at/near endgame.

Of course the abysmally horrifying defense problem needs to be addressed at some point with a passive "scales with class purity just like sorc/fvs SP" MRR/PRR and cap raise (mainly for the MRR because PnP Monks are caster killers specifically and in DDO they cannot do that job with any competency) but that is a topic for another thread.

 

[ForeverZero]

long ago, in a land of strange people and stranger situations... back when we could one-shot-kill the elite hound (raid boss) with a fury charge... back when we could still deal decent damage or have decent defenses as monks... back before the chronoscope raid was even a blip on any player's screen... we had the issue of nearly nobody using ki strikes (and i played monks).

so i asked for them to be turned into a toggle instead of a ki strike.

and thus this discussion seems to have continued.

meanwhile a respectable DPSer and natural tank has become a Wandering Farmer NPC with No Defenses and Low DPS and they call it "monk" so yes, i have to agree that presently Monk is a Joke Character in DDO.

I think back in the old days i only used earth strike, and dark strike, and touch of death, before it was nerfed into the ground and everyone went lightcause dark was useless now. Earth strike is +16 base damage which is beneficial everywhere. Light cause now cause duh. Thats bout all i use now if i do monk which is pretty rare. Shame too, monk was my favorite class back in the day

 

[Levina]

I think back in the old days i only used earth strike, and dark strike, and touch of death, before it was nerfed into the ground and everyone went lightcause dark was useless now. Earth strike is +16 base damage which is beneficial everywhere. Light cause now cause duh. Thats bout all i use now if i do monk which is pretty rare. Shame too, monk was my favorite class back in the day

Yeah it was my favorite too, but the devs put too much utter hatred and disgust into the class to make it viable for anything other than a bank toon. It's such a shame, why do the game developers absolutely loathe and despise monks so much?

 

[FaustianBargain]

Yeah it was my favorite too, but the devs put too much utter hatred and disgust into the class to make it viable for anything other than a bank toon. It's such a shame, why do the game developers absolutely loathe and despise monks so much?

Hey they gave monks an option for a weapon that uses a non weapon gear slot in addition to the weapon slot with Sharn. And if they don’t love monks why would they create a whole new archetype with vastly overlapping capabilities and almost no synergy? Does that sound like the work of someone who loathes and despises monks?

 

[The_Apocalypse]

Adding an imbue line to the monk trees seem like a good move to me. Would compensate for all the nerfing they did to monks over the years, and, as imbues currently work, would not be an OP problem.

I miss the old "backward flip kick".

 

[Levina]

Hey they gave monks an option for a weapon that uses a non weapon gear slot in addition to the weapon slot with Sharn. And if they don’t love monks why would they create a whole new archetype with vastly overlapping capabilities and almost no synergy? Does that sound like the work of someone who loathes and despises monks?

making it so that monks have nearly no defenses past Elite difficulty near endgame (just near it, not at it) and can be instakilled by any aspiring caster with a direct damage spell (extremely low MRR Cap for a class that should have the highest pre-gear/naked and post-gear MRR in the game if PnP was any point of reference) and additionally have the lowest DPS of any melee centric character (they should hit as hard as Barbs, not as hard as a battle cleric wielding a scepter and shield) just shows you how grievously hated Monks are by the developers, or at least by someone in charge of the metrics.

Granted endgame dps scales need a bit of a tweak (probably a nerf by reducing some of the DPS sources that keep spiraling THF out of control for
example) and some of the gear sets need to take a bit of a hit to reduce power creep (-1 here, -2 there, nothing too big) in order to reduce enemy/mob/boss power creep (less work in the long run) by dropping the softcap, but Monk is one class that just got thrown into a tornado of nerfbats and left for dead.

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

making it so that monks have nearly no defenses past Elite difficulty near endgame (just near it, not at it) and can be instakilled by any aspiring caster with a direct damage spell (extremely low MRR Cap for a class that should have the highest pre-gear/naked and post-gear MRR in the game if PnP was any point of reference) and additionally have the lowest DPS of any melee centric character (they should hit as hard as Barbs, not as hard as a battle cleric wielding a scepter and shield) just shows you how grievously hated Monks are by the developers, or at least by someone in charge of the metrics.

Granted endgame dps scales need a bit of a tweak (probably a nerf by reducing some of the DPS sources that keep spiraling THF out of control for
example) and some of the gear sets need to take a bit of a hit to reduce power creep (-1 here, -2 there, nothing too big) in order to reduce enemy/mob/boss power creep (less work in the long run) by dropping the softcap, but Monk is one class that just got thrown into a tornado of nerfbats and left for dead.

You can get the MRR up, but it takes work and you will sacrifice a decent portion of damage to do it. With just Two Weapon Defense (+10 to cap), GMOF Beyond the Center (+15 to cap) and the Arcane Barrier augment set (+30 to cap), you can bring up the cap from 50 to 105 (light armor). You can also add some filigree sets in as well. Frozen Wanderer (+10 for 3), Nystul's Mystical Defense ( +40 for 5) Dance of the Wind: (+10 for 3), Abiding Path (+10- for 2).. you could theoretically bring your MRR cap to 175.. but it takes ALL your fillagree slots (and I do mean all..) to do it. And that is assuming they all stack properly (DDO Planner says they do, but I have not done so in game).

Do I personally think its worth the trade off, no. But can it be done? In theory, yes.

 

[Levina]

You can get the MRR up, but it takes work and you will sacrifice a decent portion of damage to do it. With just Two Weapon Defense (+10 to cap), GMOF Beyond the Center (+15 to cap) and the Arcane Barrier augment set (+30 to cap), you can bring up the cap from 50 to 105 (light armor). You can also add some filigree sets in as well. Frozen Wanderer (+10 for 3), Nystul's Mystical Defense ( +40 for 5) Dance of the Wind: (+10 for 3), Abiding Path (+10- for 2).. you could theoretically bring your MRR cap to 175.. but it takes ALL your fillagree slots (and I do mean all..) to do it. And that is assuming they all stack properly (DDO Planner says they do, but I have not done so in game).

Do I personally think its worth the trade off, no. But can it be done? In theory, yes.

This has to be done *while* keeping up with Barbarian DPS.

There can be no trade-off.

Furthermore, where is the PRR? Why is Water stance the only viable stance (Dodge%)?

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Why is Water stance the only viable stance (Dodge%)?

Many high-end ranged Monks use Fire stance almost exclusively for obvious reasons.

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

I don't disagree. I do think the damage needs a slight boost. I don't think a single attack will ever be on par with a barbarian or fighter, but with the monk attacking much faster I do think the overall damage inflicted in the same amount of time needs to be equalized.

As for ocean stance, I generally run that now for the boost in Wisdom, which in turn boosts my stun/jade DCs. The boost in dodge also help mitigate the damage (why absorb the attack when you can avoid it). But each build is different. I remember when the "tank monk" was viable, I ran earth stance almost exclusively. As Fisto pointed out, ranged monks use Fire..

 

[Levina]

Many high-end ranged Monks use Fire stance almost exclusively for obvious reasons.

"Ranged" = not a Monk, get-outta-heeah (New York "Banishment" SLA)
don't give me that "it has one or more Monk levels therefore it is a Monk" and just focus on a pure monk (no splashes) which uses fists as the primary weapon by design.

Mountain Stance was viable once upon a time but now it is merely a death wish for a non-tank that can't sustain DPS high enough to keep aggro anyway due to a heavy nerf on defense and serious nerf on offense.

Air stance does not grant Inherent attack speed boost and does not stack with haste and increases damage to the monk after damage has already been increased by 40+% due to a defense nerf on the hard-code side so there is no reason for anyone to use Air stance at all

Fire stance would be fine too if not for the "you will never be able to take a hit like a Barb/Fighter" defense nerf. The problem generally is that the developers utterly loathe and despise Monk and want it to be a joke class.

 

[Shambhala]

It is well-established that the Devs hate Monks.

Not sure why the question about imbues was even asked.

that's so true. One thing is for sure, devs loves paladins and hate monks.
I play this game since 2009. They fear that monk will be op and broke game. That's why everyother class have imbues and updates.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

"Ranged" = not a Monk, get-outta-heeah (New York "Banishment" SLA)

Your sentence meaningless just because many ranged build use 1-20 Monk lvl purposely. Do you deny that ranged can be monks? This is an obvious inaccuracy. Or... your English worse than my, and my is awful.

don't give me that "it has one or more Monk levels therefore it is a Monk"

Quote pls, or your sentence irrelevant. Nevertless, if build have only 5 Monk lvl but T5 from monk tree - it's Monk. It's simple.

and just focus on a pure monk (no splashes)

Sure, i talk only about pure monk.

which uses fists as the primary weapon by design.

This request is to refuse!

Monks can use a variety of weapons, including ranged like Bows and throwing like Shurikens. Do you want to limit yourself to hand-to-hand combat? That's your right. Do you want to limit me?! I disagree!

Air stance does not grant Inherent attack speed boost and does not stack with haste and increases damage to the monk after damage has already been increased by 40+% due to a defense nerf on the hard-code side so there is no reason for anyone to use Air stance at all

Seems you don't know many about Air stance, sorry.
Air stance grant attack speed boost to throwing weapons that fully stacked with ranged alacrity, Air stance have synergy with some gear like Perfect Pinnacle or Legendary Jidz-Tet'ka, providing attack/damage boost. After all, Air stance adds +4 Dex, which means + 8 DS for shuri-throwers. For example, Carpone recommend use Air stance instead Fire if you Dex score<100.

Fire stance would be fine too if not for the "you will never be able to take a hit like a Barb/Fighter" defense nerf. The problem generally is that the developers utterly loathe and despise Monk and want it to be a joke class.

My pure Monk Shuri-thrower fully satisfies the criterion you set. So?

 

[Shambhala]

Your sentence meaningless just because many ranged build use 1-20 Monk lvl purposely. Do you deny that ranged can be monks? This is an obvious inaccuracy. Or... your English worse than my, and my is awful.



Quote pls, or your sentence irrelevant. Nevertless, if build have only 5 Monk lvl but T5 from monk tree - it's Monk. It's simple.



Sure, i talk only about pure monk.



This request is to refuse!

Monks can use a variety of weapons, including ranged like Bows and throwing like Shurikens. Do you want to limit yourself to hand-to-hand combat? That's your right. Do you want to limit me?! I disagree!



Seems you don't know many about Air stance, sorry.
Air stance grant attack speed boost to throwing weapons that fully stacked with ranged alacrity, Air stance have synergy with some gear like Perfect Pinnacle or Legendary Jidz-Tet'ka, providing attack/damage boost. After all, Air stance adds +4 Dex, which means + 8 DS for shuri-throwers. For example, Carpone recommend use Air stance instead Fire if you Dex score<100.



My pure Monk Shuri-thrower fully satisfies the criterion you set. So?

i don't think this thread is about your acomplishes. But to bring some perspective about how a class was never updated, or beeing victim of power creep. Not about itens, but about a class.


But well done in beeing a super duper monk shury stuff. Grats o/

 

[Levina]

Your sentence meaningless just because many ranged build use 1-20 Monk lvl purposely. Do you deny that ranged can be monks? This is an obvious inaccuracy. Or... your English worse than my, and my is awful.

>yes.

Quote pls, or your sentence irrelevant. Nevertless, if build have only 5 Monk lvl but T5 from monk tree - it's Monk. It's simple.

>i pointed out that if it is not Monk20 then it is not Monk.

Sure, i talk only about pure monk.

>apparently not.

This request is to refuse!

>нет

Monks can use a variety of weapons, including ranged like Bows and throwing like Shurikens. Do you want to limit yourself to hand-to-hand combat? That's your right. Do you want to limit me?! I disagree!

>the pen and paper concept limits monks to monk weapons, and they are designed as a mage killer frontline combatant that gets hacked and beat on with swords and hammers and picks and such. If pnp was followed they would take vastly less damage than barbarians and fighters and would be nearly totally immune to spell damage.

Seems you don't know many about Air stance, sorry.
Air stance grant attack speed boost to throwing weapons that fully stacked with ranged alacrity, Air stance have synergy with some gear like Perfect Pinnacle or Legendary Jidz-Tet'ka, providing attack/damage boost. After all, Air stance adds +4 Dex, which means + 8 DS for shuri-throwers. For example, Carpone recommend use Air stance instead Fire if you Dex score<100.

>niche stuff for niche builds. getting your stats over 80 is already too high and contributes to power creep bloat that the developers need to do something about.

My pure Monk Shuri-thrower fully satisfies the criterion you set. So?

>no, it does not, in fact it being a strictly throwing "monk" only makes it fail harder.

responses to quotes in bold with a > in front

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

"Ranged" = not a Monk, get-outta-heeah (New York "Banishment" SLA)
don't give me that "it has one or more Monk levels therefore it is a Monk" and just focus on a pure monk (no splashes) which uses fists as the primary weapon by design.

Limiting a class to just one play-style/weapon choice is not really productive. If Fisto found a way to make a throwing monk viable and it is enjoyable to him, then who are we to say that its "not a monk". That is a very closed view on the class. Would you tell a fighter that he has to be sword and board or he is not a fighter? No.. Everyone has their own play-style for the class, so lets let them play how they want.

If the thought process is that only a pure monk can be a monk, I guess I am out too. Rerolled my pure monk to a 14 fighter/6 monk. Why? I noticed the stunning DCs were lacking a bit and thought that having some extra feats invested into tactics would help. I miss out on the capstone, but gaining something like +25 to my tactics. The damage also keeps up due to Kensei synergizing well with handwraps. Yes, I still use handwraps, yes, I have all the forms, I run in grandmaster of flowers too. And yes, I still consider the character a monk.