My Thoughts on the U80 Spellcaster Changes and the Current State of Arcane Casters

Mofus

Ultima Veteran
If we follow that logic we end up with something like...

Arcanes - cc only, no damage
Divines - Heals only, no damage
Ranged - single target damage only
Melee - AOE or single target damage only
Rogues - trappers only, no damage
Tanks - tank only, no damage

There's your balanced party.😁👍
This is kinda what the game was like durring the introduction of epics way back when cap was 20. Was it fun, depends on how many mnemonic pots your casters and healers were carrying.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Multiple design changes caused this problem:
- IAF was added so casters could do melee parity DPS on bosses while not dominating melee in other content (where they had to move). Now they can keep it up most of the time, so it's constant melee parity in DPS with no downside. OTOH they have added more gap closers to melee so this is less of a problem now, but still a reason.
- Ranged gets the strongest burst along two dimensions: NHB/Fusilade/TTF x Shiradi EM (which scale multiplicatively). Both should probably be toned down a bit.
- They gave ranged and melee easy AoEs, which further eroded the niche of casters and THF. Decreasing the AoE gap makes sense, but in conjunction with the growing burst/DPS gap it mostly makes casters and THF obsolete.
How does Improve Archers Focus give casters melee parity on bosses?
 

Synalon

Choose another soldier
How does Improve Archers Focus give casters melee parity on bosses?
Must mean ranged?

I read that earlier and was thinking, what on Earth is IAF...'improved arcane focus'...? 'Insightful arcane something'? Maybe something to do with spell crits?

Anyway if it's archer's focus and judging from the rest of the post he must be talking about ranged. Mystery solved! 10/10 enigma would unravel again!
 

LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
How does Improve Archers Focus give casters melee parity on bosses?
Sorry, typo. It was meant to be mainly a boss buff for ranged, to give ranged parity with melee DPS on bosses in a party setting where ranged stand still. Ranged previously had substantially less DPS to compensate for their distance advantage, but this made them weak in boss fights. Now it's more like a permanent buff though.

Must mean ranged?

I read that earlier and was thinking, what on Earth is IAF...'improved arcane focus'...? 'Insightful arcane something'? Maybe something to do with spell crits?

Anyway if it's archer's focus and judging from the rest of the post he must be talking about ranged. Mystery solved! 10/10 enigma would unravel again!
Indeed, thanks.
 
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Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
If some of the suggestions in this thread were implemented, very few would want to play the game. Every class should have self-healing. Once the game realized that, and it took a long time, players gained true autonomy in class choice. We still aren't there for every class or archetype, but we have come a long, long way from LFMs - need a cleric before it can start with party leaders blind telling anyone with a cleric icon online, "want to run VON3?"

Further, every class should have significant AOE capabilities. AOE is fun. Players like fun.

The game is balanced in R1. Is it perfect? Nothing is perfect. It functions on a fairly level field at R1, however. Excellent job getting there. So now, we are once again quibbling about how the game plays in modes that a fraction of the player base plays in. You were never promised the game would be balanced in R10. The game was never balanced in the old Epic Elite either; wizards would throw mass holds, then melee would smack away at mobs with picks. Would you prefer that game? Then all casters would have to focus on is Enchantment DCs.

The OP demonstrates they aren't even playing a sorcerer. They are playing a wizard with a sorcerer icon. A sorcerer is not supposed to have DC proficiency in 5 schools and 4 element/damage types.

Anyone who plays serious melee knows Dragonlord isn't what you run with. Dragonlord is an approachable, entry-level choice. The type of class every game needs. It is also fun. Blightcaster is also fun. No one ever talks about Blightcasters. These were once one of the top classes played in hardcore.

None of the casting situations are ever as bad as some in these threads try to make them out to be. They stem from either power guilds who have draconian rules for what you can play in high-reaper raids, something virtually none of the gaming population participates in, or they come from general player frustration in facing 400,000-9,000,000 hp bosses in slayer areas.

One item that stands out from the original post to me is that DCs aren't the problem. Sort of true. The casting issue has always been the lack of EPIC spells. It's crazy how reliant casters are on low-level SLAs (the whole Trickster thing works because it makes magic missile and frost lance great). A friend and I both played sorcerers recently on different lives, and both independently came to the same conclusion - scorch and scorching ray were better than fireball. Not just slightly better. Significantly better, to such a degree that fireball is last in the rotation and almost a useless spell. On a fire savant. The lower-level spells are better. This pattern scales all the way up into epics. The few epic "spells" that existed were nerfed into the ground (cough..cough..carrion swarm). The "feat" spells ruin/greater ruin are ridiculously overpriced to cast. So much of the angst about casting could be solved by easing the R7 damage reduction, cutting the cost of ruins by half and the cooldowns by 10%, and adding some new epic or 9th-level spells to every school.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
None of the casting situations are ever as bad as some in these threads try to make them out to be
Lets see some new reaper wilderness purple times r1 r4 r6 r10 or is that not proof enough

Paging J1ng illumnate us with the truth
 
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Khurse

Well-known member
What's the balance players are looking for though?
Saw someone in here saying they had like 141 Necro DC and couldn't land hits on R10, my PM has 136ish and doesn't seem to have an issue landing hits most of the time. I've led the kill count in R10 a couple of times in Lammordia.

Important to note though that I mostly solo, I may have gotten lucky the few times I joined R10 groups, or those R10 groups may have not had the best players(or gear) . OR it may have just been I happened to do the easy quests. I haven't joined any R10 pugs for Gravenhollow yet.

But, should one class (Wizard or Sorc) be able to instakill/hold anything in the toughest quests in the game, as well as be able to contribute near top level melee DPS as well? Which seems to be what at least some of the players in this thread are looking for. (Or at least that's my impression)

I'd love for my PM to have better DPS for soloing the boss fights, but at a certain point if I can instakill/hold anything not immune to it and have even 80-90% of the best DPS builds in the game, why would anyone play anything else ? (Aside from DL who probably have better holds...)
 

DBZ

Well-known member
Purple farming is mandatory for gear every build should be able to do it efficiently not just half dcs, instas, holds don't matter on those

Just Dps
 

LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
What's the balance players are looking for though?
Saw someone in here saying they had like 141 Necro DC and couldn't land hits on R10, my PM has 136ish and doesn't seem to have an issue landing hits most of the time. I've led the kill count in R10 a couple of times in Lammordia.

Important to note though that I mostly solo, I may have gotten lucky the few times I joined R10 groups, or those R10 groups may have not had the best players(or gear) . OR it may have just been I happened to do the easy quests. I haven't joined any R10 pugs for Gravenhollow yet.

But, should one class (Wizard or Sorc) be able to instakill/hold anything in the toughest quests in the game, as well as be able to contribute near top level melee DPS as well? Which seems to be what at least some of the players in this thread are looking for. (Or at least that's my impression)

I'd love for my PM to have better DPS for soloing the boss fights, but at a certain point if I can instakill/hold anything not immune to it and have even 80-90% of the best DPS builds in the game, why would anyone play anything else ? (Aside from DL who probably have better holds...)
Insta-kill is a rather niche build though, that is really only effective if you are heavily invested for a narrow set of builds. Most casters need decent DPS, not IK.
 

Khurse

Well-known member
Purple farming is mandatory for gear every build should be able to do it efficiently not just half dcs, instas, holds don't matter on those

Just Dps
Fair enough if people feel this way, but again it seems like saying "This class I like to play should get no fail/near no fail IK and holds on anything non immune AND be able to have 80-90% DPS of teh best DPS builds". (Apologies if you aren't one of the players also suggesting Casters should be able to easily to gear for max DC's)
 

Khurse

Well-known member
Insta-kill is a rather niche build though, that is really only effective if you are heavily invested for a narrow set of builds. Most casters need decent DPS, not IK.
Yeah but most of the players here saying casters need better / near par DPS are the same ones complaining that it's too hard to gear for MAx DC's across holds/IK's/ whatever.
If I've missed something, and the argument is that "If casters don't build for DC's and can't IK/hold anything in high reaper, they should get on par DPS I'd agree.
But it seems like a lot of players want to be able to consistently land IK's and holds in R10 content and well as have near parity in DPS.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
It would be nice if the devs could Chime in and lay what the Framework is on what they believe each Class should have what Floor and Ceiling in general to start, from there, in discussing what Tweaks can be made to each Class.

Start that Framework again as the game has changed since leveling past 16 for every Class and Fighting Style.

The Epic Destiny Revamp really narrowed down abilities and yet at the same time opened it up with the illusion of more variety.

I preferred having 4 Trees as Side Destinies(Tier 4/3/1/1) and my Main Tree as a First Lifer.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Sorry, typo. It was meant to be mainly a boss buff for ranged, to give ranged parity with melee DPS on bosses in a party setting where ranged stand still. Ranged previously had substantially less DPS to compensate for their distance advantage, but this made them weak in boss fights. Now it's more like a permanent buff though.


Indeed, thanks.
No Problemo and thanks for the response and clarifying what you meant.
 

LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
Yeah but most of the players here saying casters need better / near par DPS are the same ones complaining that it's too hard to gear for MAx DC's across holds/IK's/ whatever.
If I've missed something, and the argument is that "If casters don't build for DC's and can't IK/hold anything in high reaper, they should get on par DPS I'd agree.
But it seems like a lot of players want to be able to consistently land IK's and holds in R10 content and well as have near parity in DPS.
I don't think that is the case generally. People complained about DCs generally. You need DCs to DPS as a caster as well. It was difficult to hit them in relevant content without stacking years of investment - which is very different from how much investment was needed for a ranged build.

It's really only a problem beacuse they gave some builds so many IKs (e.g. AMs, Warlocks). A middle ground would be to give DPS spells a bonus to DC (or IKs a penalty to DCs). Another would be to simply slow down the IK spells (slower death, or slower projectiles). Given how ATr and ranged are currently performing, they can delete trash almost as fast and can delete red named as well. Leading kill counts by killing trash 2 seconds faster is a bit of an optical illusion.
 
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Chaotix

Well-known member
I don't think that is the case generally. People complained about DCs generally. You need DCs to DPS as a caster as well. It was difficult to hit them in relevant content without stacking years of investment - which is very different from how much investment was needed for a ranged build.

It's really only a problem beacuse they gave some builds so many IKs (e.g. AMs, Warlocks). A middle ground would be to give DPS spells a bonus to DC (or IKs a penalty to DCs). Another would be to simply slow down the IK spells (slower death, or slower projectiles). Given how ATr and ranged are currently performing, they can delete trash almost as fast and can delete red named as well. Leading kill counts by killing trash 2 seconds faster is a bit of an optical illusion.
Trash killing isn't problem per se, hurt egos cause u don't have highest kill count isn't either, REAL problem is when mana user face red name meat bag, usually I have feeling when Im caster like Im doing paper cuts in comparison to martials and it takes forever to kill them if u solo, never had that problem on martial.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
The meatshields need to add more thicker meat hide so that the META Melees have to cut through that tough outer layer.

The game is a teeter totter of who is the strongest Class.
At one time Casters entered the room and blew up everything as they stepped in, and any leftovers where getting instakilled by Pick A Card spells on separate Cooldowns from afar. Melees complained because they could never reach ANY mobs in time to even Swing at them.
Now the Casters hit them softer and the Meta Melees(Not all Melees- TWF/int) Hippo Smash them in two Chomps.
Range says don't involve me in your two guys beef, I'ma stay back here and Range for a few seconds while you guys Duke it Out.
 

Tharminator

Well-known member
What op says is accurate but i disagree that DC's don't need to be worked as damage is dc based to a point to double. it's too hard as stated to bring up multiple schools that are needed as it's spread out too much vs other classes that focus on one item/tactics dc, etc.

problem is the limited boost to damage by capped spells at low limits for heroic spells and a lack of later large dps spells provided to casters. yes you can take ruin but then you need to take greater ruin and oh your sorc and have no force boosting enhancements... oh your now 2 feats short for taking those two. it's dps OR instakills and instakills don't always work in any said quest as reapers, red names and bosses are immune. no other dps style has their damage limited by mobs or in higher skulls.

solution - +1 dc's in destinies need to stack per destiny tree
-+1 dc per 2 legendary levels auto granted
-more sp in legendary levels auto granted. you have to max, empower, intensify a spell to do any sort of dps and we get how many more sp per level?? not enough for one extra casting.
- bard buffs to dc's need to double in epic/triple in legendary, double/quadruple spell point regen in epic
- static feats like wizard pastlife should double in epic
-remove reaper spell nerf for R7+
- remove spell caps in epic giving more options (fireball capped at d15 heroic no cap at lvl 30 = d30) casting time and cooldowns limit overall dps prevent too much stacking of dps from this but it opens up using vastly different spells per situation instead of the same 4-5.
- this would roll into healing classes making lower healing spells more useful. opening up slots to take other spells.

a rogue shouldn't have the highest dc in the game... time for some caster love please.
 

Jaspar

Well-known member
I'm impressed you still have faith after U80 p2. The devs have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of both the concept and the practical reality of game balance in DDO endgame.

This is likely, though its also entirely possible they just dont care, and are completely okay with doing the bare minimum.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
a rogue shouldn't have the highest dc in the game... time for some caster love please.
All your points agreed, except this.

Arcane Trickster is a stepchild of a Rogue, that somehow found the gamma ray lab and boosted itself.
Rogues in general are highly skilled(in theory, not in game unfortunately) but the DC to Disable Device for Stolen Spells is what Arcane Trickster stole from Bards Perform skill(talent) and the devs left that chest open, and the Arcane Trickster, decided to loot it and use that in game to its advantage.

Imagine they make a Warlock Trickster and use both Range Power and Melee Power for Spell Power and Crit and then Eldritch Blast pulses out Slash, Pierce, Bludgeon damage as Pact Damage as well, plus...when a mob touches the Warlock Trickster it has a chance to "Presto" and disappear.
And Warlocks get no improvement....
 
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